Soundstage/Detail from Amp or Pre-Amp?

N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
I have often wondered if the manufacturers of various brands, and perhaps the high end brands more so, build into there amps\preamps a purposely manipulated signal which is unique to them. They have there own "signature sound". WmAx do you have any thoughts about this?

Of course the DBTs I have read report an inability to reliable to distinguish between brands in any case, which argues against my question, but I wonder just the same.

Nick
 
L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
Thanks so much for all the replies and information. I've got the ATI AT1502 on its way and will use the HK 3480 as the pre for now and I'll let you know what effects I subjectively hear. Should be a lot of placebo effect going on and I won't have any instruments to measure but I'll pass it on none the less. Hey I wonder - is there a way to develop an instrument that would measure the placebo effect? Hmmm...

larry
 
tomd51

tomd51

Audioholic General
mulester7 said:
.....to me, scientific evaluation has about "nothing" to do with purchases I make....it does have something to do with a component right up until I get the chance to hear the component perform, then the stats and especially the reviews, mean nothing.....

.....edit....Mtry, why do you forever keep throwing "bias" at us?....do you think we care which one sounds better?....do you think we're not being totally wide-open to one simply sounding better to us than the other?.....
I think you've said it much better and more succinctly than I did, Mulester. I certainly base my purchases on equipment being able to achieve certain criteria, but whether or not the equipment stays with me depends on how it performs in my listening environment and whether or not it was what I was looking for. This is a prime example of why the subjective analysis should be regarded as well as the scientific analysis. Sure some will form their own bias and opinons, but I don't think anyone should ever base their decision on benchmark tests and analytical data alone... -TD
 
tomd51

tomd51

Audioholic General
Sorry to get a bit off-topic, Larry. Would definitely be interested to hear your findings after integrating the ATI.

Is there a way to develop an instrument that would measure the placebo effect? Possibly, but wouldn't that cause some sort of rift in the space-time continuum? :p -TD
 
S

Sleestack

Senior Audioholic
IMO, soundstage and imaging are entirely a product of the recording, the speakers and their placement and room acoustics. Playing around with TACT gear made me realize this immediately, after literally hearing the imaging snap into place after adjusting for acoustic deficincies.

As for detail, I can see where a tube preamp or amp might give the perveived gain or loss of detail. If you roll off highs you can get the perception that everything sounds smoothed over whereas a solid state amp might give one the perception that everything sounds bright and detailed.

In any case, if proper imaging an dsoundstage is what you are looking for, start with a good recording then take a close look at your speakers and the way they are interacting with the room.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
tomd51 said:
Sorry to get a bit off-topic, Larry. Would definitely be interested to hear your findings after integrating the ATI.

Is there a way to develop an instrument that would measure the placebo effect? Possibly, but wouldn't that cause some sort of rift in the space-time continuum? :p -TD

You are right above about opinions:D
Now, Larry has more considerations to make, better informed
Placebo effect has been measured, in audio as well, when the same component is presented without the knowledge of the listener. Yep, they still hear differences when nothing changes but they think they changed.
That is why, IMO, one needs controls if they are looking for reliable information on which to base choices on; Certainly it is not forced on anyone nor is it required. We all make choices. If I can, I'd rather make it on real ones.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
LHawes said:
...I'll let you know what effects I subjectively hear. Should be a lot of placebo effect going on and I won't have any instruments to measure but I'll pass it on none the less. Hey I wonder - is there a way to develop an instrument that would measure the placebo effect? Hmmm...

larry

You don't need instrumentation to measure it:D
The minimum you should do is carefully level match the two components you are comparing, then, without your knowledge, compare them with at least 10 trials, 16 or 20 would be best. Keep score along with the person switching components. 9 of 10, 12 of 16 and 15 of 20 is needed:D
As I stated above, placebo has been demonstrated in audio by not switching gear and not telling that it was not switched. 75% still claim a difference between itself. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Nick250 said:
I have often wondered if the manufacturers of various brands, and perhaps the high end brands more so, build into there amps\preamps a purposely manipulated signal which is unique to them. They have there own "signature sound". WmAx do you have any thoughts about this?

Of course the DBTs I have read report an inability to reliable to distinguish between brands in any case, which argues against my question, but I wonder just the same.

Nick

Some 'signatures' would show up on measurements, output impedance high, distortion, FR. Others such as phase shifts between channels is not measured but that would be a constant, not music dependent and should produce a consistently shifted image, not music dependent ones.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
mtrycrafts said:
You don't need instrumentation to measure it:D
The minimum you should do is carefully level match the two components you are comparing, then, without your knowledge, compare them with at least 10 trials, 16 or 20 would be best. Keep score along with the person switching components. 9 of 10, 12 of 16 and 15 of 20 is needed:D
As I stated above, placebo has been demonstrated in audio by not switching gear and not telling that it was not switched. 75% still claim a difference between itself. :D
I used to think that people made too much emphasis on the importance of level matching, until I A/B compared my 3805 with my Adcom preamp recently. I guess when it was first set up, the Adcom was slightly louder. Without realizing the levels were different, the Adcom sounded better in terms of clarity in the mids and highs. The perceived difference was enough, though turned out to be short lived, to make me wondering if I should consider acquiring a higher end preamp. Just to be sure, I decided to take the time and level matched the two setups using a SPL meter. To my surprise, after level matching, I could no longer tell the difference between the two. I then asked another person to do the listening while I did the switching, same results, there was no audible difference. I would definitely repeat the same exercise when I get my hands on a pair B&W 80?D. Regardless, I now realized level matching is a must, before making claims about any audible SQ difference between preamp/amps.
 
tomd51

tomd51

Audioholic General
PENG said:
I now realized level matching is a must, before making claims about any audible SQ difference between preamp/amps.
Absolutely. Any time any new equipment is introduced (or removed, for that matter) into a system, re-calibration should be performed. In addition to this, one may want to consider this any time a sizable piece of furniture is added/removed from the listening area as well... -TD
 
L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
tomd51 said:
Is there a way to develop an instrument that would measure the placebo effect? Possibly, but wouldn't that cause some sort of rift in the space-time continuum? :p -TD
LOL:D :D :D
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
LHawes said:
Real basic question I hope I can ask clearly. Where does the detail, soundstage, focus and other such audio qualities mainly orginate from in the audio chain? Which has more effect on these phenomenon - the pre or the amp?

The reason I am asking is that even though I really like my new HK 3480 it seems as though the speakers are much more prominent than with my older Onkyo. The speakers never 'disappeared' but I was always amazed to hear the sound from places other than the speakers. It seems the HK produces sound mainly from the speakers.

The main reason for asking is I am considering an ATI AT1502 amp and using the 3480 as a pre for now. Will the pre in the HK dominate the systems ability to produce a different sound stage or will the ATI have a larger effect?

I'm sure the answer is that it is a combination, but if someone could explain the phenom a bit better I would really appreciate it.

larry
Hi Larry
I own 2 different Pre amps from the same company and they sound different .
One is made for 2 channel and the other for HT . I used both Pre's in my bedroom setup with a Bryston 4b . The 2 channel pre has a warmer softer sound , the HT pre is abit sharper in sound ( for movies ) .
I also compared on the 2 channel pre , 2 high current Amps .
1 . Bryston 4b
2 . Carver TFM 35
The two amps have very different sound and sound stages . Both are good , but different .
The Bryston had a better sound stage and a better midrange . ( more of a live concert , in upper deck sound )
The Carver has Crystal clear highs , very smooth highs . ( More a studio sound )
Both amps are high current and 250 rms a channel .
I use the Bryston in my main 2 channel and the Carver in my bedroom .

The pre amps are what surprised me the most , same company and made close to the same year . What i can take is you need the sharper sound for HT and for 2 channel you can have the softer tube like sound .
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
wire said:
Hi Larry
I own 2 different Pre amps from the same company and they sound different .
.

Perception may not be reality:D
What can be demonstrated is.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
Perception may not be reality:D
What can be demonstrated is.
.....come on, admit it, we're wearin' you down.....
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
wire said:
The Bryston had a better sound stage and a better midrange . (more of a live concert , in upper deck sound)

The Carver has Crystal clear highs, very smooth highs . (More a studio sound)
.....GREAT descriptions....you told me the Bryston had more "live presence"......
 
tomd51

tomd51

Audioholic General
Perception...

From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: per·cep·tion
Pronunciation: p&r-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin perception-, perceptio act of perceiving, from percipere
1 a: a result of perceiving : OBSERVATION b: a mental image : CONCEPT
2 obsolete : CONSCIOUSNESS
3 a: awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation <color perception> b: physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience
4 a: quick, acute, and intuitive cognition : APPRECIATION b: a capacity for comprehension

Certainly sounds like reality to me... :D -TD
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I coming into this thread somewhat late, but it seems that this discussion is overlooking an obvious (at least to me) answer to the original question of whether the preamp or the amp contributes to soundstage and imaging. One poster, agarwalro, already mentioned that recording quality determines much of the soundstage and imaging we hear at home. Yes, without any doubt.

In my experience, more than the various electronic components in a home audio system, it is the speakers, and their interaction with the room they are in, that contribute most to the 3-dimensional illusion that we call soundstage & imaging. More specifically, it is the speakers' abitilty to handle large changes in SPL, or their ability to respond to a wide dynamic range in the recording. Speakers with larger dynamic range create better imaging and soundstage than speakers with smaller dynamic range. You cannot ignore amplifier power when discussing this because different speakers often require different levels of power before they deliver their best dynamic range in a given room.

tomd51 discussed how he swapped out 4 different receivers while using the same speakers. I find it interesting how he spent his money and time doing all that, and not surprisingly, found that he observed differences in the sound. Other people report similar findings when they swap out speakers, CD players, preamps, amps, RCA interconnects :confused: , speaker wire :rolleyes: , or even speaker wire insulation :eek: !! This is what mtrycraft is referring to as bias. What ever you work at most is, most likely, what you are going to observe as making a difference.

All this doesn't answer the original question. I'm inclined to believe that speakers, given sufficient power to satisfy their power requirements, provide the best way to achieve better soundstage and imaging. But then, I'm the kind of guy who likes to swap out speakers, not recievers or preamps.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
PENG said:
Regardless, I now realized level matching is a must, before making claims about any audible SQ difference between preamp/amps.

Great insight shared:D

Did you by chance measure the level difference beforehand when you were able to differentiate them?
And about perceiving louder as better is exactly what researchers found as well. That is why the .1dB spl matching trumpeted. People think that they will only hear it as being louder, not other differences. Now you know as well.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
tomd51 said:
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: per·cep·tion
Pronunciation: p&r-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin perception-, perceptio act of perceiving, from percipere
1 a: a result of perceiving : OBSERVATION b: a mental image : CONCEPT
2 obsolete : CONSCIOUSNESS
3 a: awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation <color perception> b: physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience
4 a: quick, acute, and intuitive cognition : APPRECIATION b: a capacity for comprehension

Certainly sounds like reality to me... :D -TD
Maybe, maybe not. What do you call a perception that is imagined only? This is well demonstrated time and time again? Interestingly, people will perceive a difference between the same component presented twice with nothing changing except not knowing. What reality is that? That is a minds singular reality, no?
I suppose those who hear voices no one else can is also a singular reality but that is not very useful to anyone else.:D
 
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L

LHawes

Audioholic Intern
Great information you guys. I have become convinced through no scientific methods what so ever that the speakers are the main culprit as described by most of the posters.

I have another very scientific suspicion that the HK 3480 has only amplified (pun intended) the speakers' characterisitcs and their inherent ability/inability to reproduce a soundstage/image.

I'll post my placebo induced experiences when the ATI ATI AT1502 arrives.

Larry
 

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