Soundstage/Detail from Amp or Pre-Amp?

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

EDIT: Post deleted. Nonsensical rambling. Absinthe & crack-cocaine bender .........

 

[PENG]

Great insight shared

Did you by chance measure the level difference beforehand when you were able to differentiate them?
And about perceiving louder as better is exactly what researchers found as well. That is why the .1dB spl matching trumpeted. People think that they will only hear it as being louder, not other differences. Now you know as well.

No, my ears told me the level was about the same but my meter told me my ears were wrong. I still believe there are people like mule, indcrimdefense, and now wire, who can hear the difference between preamps and amps (so they claim) even when paired with mid level speakers. However, I am skeptical about those claims of hearing huge, or day and night kind of difference. I also believe the vast majority of the population cannot really hear the difference between amps even with high end speakers and sources, in level matched blind listening scenarios. This is why I feel like cautioning people who own a decent mid level receiver or amp, not to take it to the bank as soon as they are told by someone to get an amp and their speakers will open up, produce more detail sound, tighter bass, bla bla bla, etc., etc.,........ I would always suggest that they first make sure they can hear the difference, and of course, that means a better sound. Reason being is, not everyone can hear those subtle difference.

 

[wire]

No, my ears told me the level was about the same but my meter told me my ears were wrong. I still believe there are people like mule, indcrimdefense, and now wire, who can hear the difference between preamps and amps (so they claim) even when paired with mid level speakers. However, I am skeptical about those claims of hearing huge, or day and night kind of difference. I also believe the vast majority of the population cannot really hear the difference between amps even with high end speakers and sources, in level matched blind listening scenarios. This is why I feel like cautioning people who own a decent mid level receiver or amp, not to take it to the bank as soon as they are told by someone to get an amp and their speakers will open up, produce more detail sound, tighter bass, bla bla bla, etc., etc.,........ I would always suggest that they first make sure they can hear the difference, and of course, that means a better sound. Reason being is, not everyone can hear those subtle difference.

Well
The 2 pre's , My roommate can hear the difference and my girlfreind thought she wouldnt notice the difference , but she did and now she wants me to buy her a 2 channel pre like i have . the 2 channel pre is made for 2 channel music and the 5.1 pre is made for movies ( both pre's sound great , one is a softer sound ) , but it now makes sence why the builder would do this .
When i decided to use my 4b in my room , my girlfreind couldnt believe how far back the voice was ( which is called depth in a soundstage ) and im only using Nuance Star 1's ( not a high end speaker ) in my bedroom .
I also beileve in the more power the better , you dont get in danger of blowing speakers . So the thats what i know , its not a study and if my roommate and my girlfreind ( whom didnt think she would hear a difference ) , hear , im not the only one .

 

[wire]

.....GREAT descriptions....you told me the Bryston had more "live presence"......

I think its a signature for Bryston amps ( maybe why they are popular ) , the Carver is built to sound like a tube amp .

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have another very scientific suspicion that the HK 3480 has only amplified (pun intended) the speakers' characterisitcs and their inherent ability/inability to reproduce a soundstage/image.
Larry

Yes, but cannot leave out the room's acoustic contribution as it does a whole lot as well.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think its a signature for Bryston amps ( maybe why they are popular ) , the Carver is built to sound like a tube amp .

But if you call Bryston's chief engineer, he will tell you it is just transparent as many modern amps are.

 

[wire]

Yes, but cannot leave out the room's acoustic contribution as it does a whole lot as well.

Its a large bedroom .

 

[wire]

But if you call Bryston's chief engineer, he will tell you it is just transparent as many modern amps are.

I probably could , there customer service is maybe the best out there . They really have not changed the 4b until recently , I think the new 4b is 300 rms per channel now , but it was the same amp for 20 or more years .

 

[PENG]

I probably could , there customer service is maybe the best out there . They really have not changed the 4b until recently , I think the new 4b is 300 rms per channel now , but it was the same amp for 20 or more years .

Bryston is not the only one that designs amps to simply amplifier the original signals with as little distortion as possible. Most high end amps I read about claim to do the same. They are also not supposed to alter the magnitude of the signals within and well beyond the audible frequency range. You are right, the 4B SST is rated for 300 WPC. It weighs only 52 lbs, much lighter than some of their competitors but it is built like a tank.

 

[PENG]

Well
The 2 pre's , My roommate can hear the difference and my girlfreind thought she wouldnt notice the difference , but she did and now she wants me to buy her a 2 channel pre like i have . the 2 channel pre is made for 2 channel music and the 5.1 pre is made for movies ( both pre's sound great , one is a softer sound ) , but it now makes sence why the builder would do this .
When i decided to use my 4b in my room , my girlfreind couldnt believe how far back the voice was ( which is called depth in a soundstage ) and im only using Nuance Star 1's ( not a high end speaker ) in my bedroom .
I also beileve in the more power the better , you dont get in danger of blowing speakers . So the thats what i know , its not a study and if my roommate and my girlfreind ( whom didnt think she would hear a difference ) , hear , im not the only one .

Wire, I know many people, including me, could hear the difference. In one of my post I said I heard a difference when I was switching between my 2 ch preamp and my Denon 3805. In the end I found out it was only because I did not follow rule no.1. I did not level match them!

Let's stick with the following definitions:

A) Mid level gear=price range: USD1,200 to 2,500 receivers and amps.

B)Difference=Perceived Difference=Real until you realize you don't perceive it anymore.

C)"many people, fewer people"=Projection based on friends and relatives who were around when those comparisons were made in my or their places over the years, assuming they did have average/normal hearing capability.

Based my experience ONLY (no science/engineering/specs), all else being equal (source,speakers,room etc:

1) Many people will tell you they can hear differences between two mid level amps/receivers if you are not doing a A/B by switching. There is too much time lapsed in between. I used to think I could hear a difference, sometimes even significant difference, while doing a comparison by disconnecting wires from one amp and reconnecting them to another.

2) Many but much fewer people, including me again, will hear the difference between two mid level gear by doing a quick A/B comparison without level matching. I was able to do it easily last week because I was comparing a preamp to a receiver.

3) Very few people will be able to tell the difference if the comparison is done by quick A/B switching, and the two units are perfectly level matched.

Even fewer?? would be able to tell the difference in a DBT. I have absolutely no experience in DBT or even SBT and that's why I put included the?? I am hoping that may be those who experienced it would share their findings.

Your experience obviously differ, as you have indicated, but have you tried 3)?

 

[Sleestack]

Yes, but cannot leave out the room's acoustic contribution as it does a whole lot as well.

Not just alot. Proper room acoustics have an overhelming impact on imaging. I just don't think enough people have an idea of how bad there rooms actually are.

As for preamps or amps making a difference. I could see where a preamp (solid state v. tube) might have a an impact on sound, but I really don't think imaging is affected by those components. I don't really see how they could, unless you were manipulating the timing or level of the sound waves hitting your ears (which I do with the TACT gear).

 

[cornelius]

In a little while I'm going to try some Blind tests. I'm gearing up for some renovations in my apartment, so the gear is going to have to move. Since it'll be uprooted I'll side by side my bedroom amp with the living room one.

In the meantime, my unscientific experience has been in my ugrades over time.
1. I upgraded within the Arcam line a few years ago, and heard a change. With the first amp, I had to roll of the treble, it was just too bright. When I went to the next model up, I suddenly had more bass, so the exaggerated highs were gone (same speakers, room...). This is something my roomate and I heard. I eventually added a power amp for bi-amping, but didn't hear much difference.
2. I moved over to a McIntosh integrated. This change was much less subtle. It sounded like a 3D button was pressed with the new amp. The soundstage just widened right out (front and back). There was much more detail, and even more bass (in a positive way). I had very low expectations for this upgrade, the Mac amp is used and older than the Arcam gear - I had no idea what to expect. I attribute it to the better designed Mac. The background is dead silent, which I would suspect helps in some way (detail, ambience...).

Keep in mind, for fun I've spent some money on IC's and Speaker cables and didn't really hear much, if any difference. My final cable choices are simple, inexpensive Canare cables from Markertek (I just found out, the same stuff the McIntosh guys used in the latest McIntosh presentation at the big HT show in LA recently). I read cable reviews and find a lot of it hard to believe, so I'm pretty skeptical. I'm looking to upgrade my amp, so I recently A/B'd a new McIntosh MA 6500 to a Krell KAV-400xi. It was a very quick demo. I just stopped by the store on my way home, and didn't have any of my own music with me. I heard no difference - I'm going to go back with some of my own tunes, but if I still can't tell, than I'm going to assume that my old Mac will sound the same as the new ones.


I hope to hook up the bedroom amp soon for the real test!

 

[wire]

Bryston is not the only one that designs amps to simply amplifier the original signals with as little distortion as possible. Most high end amps I read about claim to do the same. They are also not supposed to alter the magnitude of the signals within and well beyond the audible frequency range. You are right, the 4B SST is rated for 300 WPC. It weighs only 52 lbs, much lighter than some of their competitors but it is built like a tank.

Peng
One thing about Amp designs , not much has changed since i bought my 1st NAD (bridged) and moved up from there . For Bryston , why mess with a already good thing , teck cant help power amps that much , most of it is still all about the power supply and i cant see that changing that much in the future ( there are a few exceptions , like Bob Carver . But his stuff now has no support ) .
I remmeber , my freind back then was looking for some power , we tryed a 80 rms per channel yammy vs a denon 40 rms per channel . The denon blew away the Yammy . He ended up buying a H/K intrigated amp . I even wonder about Denon stuff now days , im not sure if its built in China , but that stuff is damn light .

 

[wire]

Not just alot. Proper room acoustics have an overhelming impact on imaging. I just don't think enough people have an idea of how bad there rooms actually are.

As for preamps or amps making a difference. I could see where a preamp (solid state v. tube) might have a an impact on sound, but I really don't think imaging is affected by those components. I don't really see how they could, unless you were manipulating the timing or level of the sound waves hitting your ears (which I do with the TACT gear).

Man
I think my bedroom sucks for acoustics , but i run SH down there , it helps with most recordings . I didnt say the imaging was a difference in the 2 pre's , the 2 channel was much softer sounding and the 5.1 was sharper , the imaging was identical .

 

[wire]

In a little while I'm going to try some Blind tests. I'm gearing up for some renovations in my apartment, so the gear is going to have to move. Since it'll be uprooted I'll side by side my bedroom amp with the living room one.

In the meantime, my unscientific experience has been in my ugrades over time.
1. I upgraded within the Arcam line a few years ago, and heard a change. With the first amp, I had to roll of the treble, it was just too bright. When I went to the next model up, I suddenly had more bass, so the exaggerated highs were gone (same speakers, room...). This is something my roomate and I heard. I eventually added a power amp for bi-amping, but didn't hear much difference.
2. I moved over to a McIntosh integrated. This change was much less subtle. It sounded like a 3D button was pressed with the new amp. The soundstage just widened right out (front and back). There was much more detail, and even more bass (in a positive way). I had very low expectations for this upgrade, the Mac amp is used and older than the Arcam gear - I had no idea what to expect. I attribute it to the better designed Mac. The background is dead silent, which I would suspect helps in some way (detail, ambience...).

Keep in mind, for fun I've spent some money on IC's and Speaker cables and didn't really hear much, if any difference. My final cable choices are simple, inexpensive Canare cables from Markertek (I just found out, the same stuff the McIntosh guys used in the latest McIntosh presentation at the big HT show in LA recently). I read cable reviews and find a lot of it hard to believe, so I'm pretty skeptical. I'm looking to upgrade my amp, so I recently A/B'd a new McIntosh MA 6500 to a Krell KAV-400xi. It was a very quick demo. I just stopped by the store on my way home, and didn't have any of my own music with me. I heard no difference - I'm going to go back with some of my own tunes, but if I still can't tell, than I'm going to assume that my old Mac will sound the same as the new ones.
I hope to hook up the bedroom amp soon for the real test!

Mcintosh is good stuff , there pre must very good in the intergrated .
I did find a difference in my speaker cables in my bedroom , moving from regular to monster XP . In my 5.1 , i dont find any difference , but i use Klipcsh ( baby's ) and power it by a cheap 4 channel sony and a bridged JBL amps ( not the greatest power , but its for movies ) . I might upgrade to a Carver 4 or 5 channel if the price is right .

 

[Sleestack]

Man
I think my bedroom sucks for acoustics , but i run SH down there , it helps with most recordings . I didnt say the imaging was a difference in the 2 pre's , the 2 channel was much softer sounding and the 5.1 was sharper , the imaging was identical .

I should have read more carefully. I was responding more to the general issue than your specific post, but should have made that clear. I have definitely heard tonal differences between certain components, particulalry between tube and SS preamps or amps.

 

[mtrycrafts]

In a little while I'm going to try some Blind tests.

Great. But a few comments on it. You need accurate level matches and not with music but sine waves and preferable volt meter on the speaker terminals.
Keep track of your guesses, which component is which and the person doing the switching needs to do that too without you knowing what he switched.
9 of 10 correct, 12 of 15.

In the meantime, my unscientific experience has been in my ugrades over time.

Over time means that you lived with one then the other and trying to compare them by memory over time?

 

[cornelius]

Whenever I do upgrades, it's always with an at-home, A/B comparison of new gear/whatever is to be replaced. I've purchased my gear lately from the internet, and I've gone through some lengthy trial period comparisons before keeping anything - never relying on memory.

 

[PENG]

Whenever I do upgrades, it's always with an at-home, A/B comparison of new gear/whatever is to be replaced. I've purchased my gear lately from the internet, and I've gone through some lengthy trial period comparisons before keeping anything - never relying on memory.

Repeat: I and a friend did an A/B last week, first level matched only by hearing. We immediately heard the preamp sounded more detailed, transparent, and better overall. We did not even need to try to hear the difference. The difference was obvious and it did not seem to sound louder, it was better, period. We switched between the two units back and forth many times to convince ourselves that it was not Placebo effect fooling us. Then we did the level matching with a meter. To our surprise, the difference we first perceived became completely inaudible. I read about the magic of level matching for AB comparison and wondered why people keep repeating the importance of it as if we don't know already. Now I know, and sorry for repeating the same myself.

I do not doubt other people's experience but l am curious about how they did their comparison. I am telling mine because in my case by taking the time to level match and then repeat the comparison, have potentially save me a few thousand dollars as I was beginning to dream about either a mid high preamp or preamp pro such as a Bryston BP26 or SP2. Now I am going to save up more for the B&W D series first before I would look at the electronic side again. I will now shut up and just listen.

 

[LHawes]

Peng, that's a great example and I will personlly take it to heart when it comes time to shop for a high end pre/pro. I have a question though - when you initially "level matched only by hearing" it must have sounded mighty close to the same level.

When you level matched with a meter could you hear a difference, not in the sound quality but in the level itself since it should now sound softer or louder than what you thought you previously heard as the same?

Or did the metered level match simply show how far off your ears were to begin with?

Thanks

Larry