Sonos Amp or Integrated Amp for 2 channel Music w/bookshelf speakers

[John Parks]

Yeah, @KenM10759 went from the Powernode (IIRC) to the NAD M10 in his office system and loves it. The NAD interests me as well but is a little out of my price range ATM.

 

[highfigh]

Hi, I looked into Denon Heos Amp & Yamaha WXA-50 MusicCast streaming amplifiers. Both looked great, except that I'm looking for Airplay2 which is not supported in those yet.
True I can stream from iOS devices to Heos amp via Denon app , but then I'd be introducing another multi-room audio system, as I(+family) am primarily using Airplay2 for all my devices.

MusicCast amp supports Airplay ,but not Airplay2 yet ,which is needed for streaming to multiple rooms/devices selectively.

Care to elaborate on the last statement? Are you trying to stream from one phone to some devices and from another phone to others? You can do that with HEOS and MusicCast by not grouping the ones that will receive the alternate stream. For multiple rooms, just group the ones you want- MusicCast calls it 'linking' and they have a chain icon at the upper left corner of the screen while HEOS has a screen for using the ON/OFF sliders. Those don't, however, allow streaming to a TV or Echo/Alexa, Google Home, etc. If you're not using those, it's obviously not an issue.

 

[AVUser001]

Yeah, @KenM10759 went from the Powernode (IIRC) to the NAD M10 in his office system and loves it. The NAD interests me as well but is a little out of my price range ATM.
View attachment 32819

Wow, that's niceee!

 

[AVUser001]

Care to elaborate on the last statement? Are you trying to stream from one phone to some devices and from another phone to others? You can do that with HEOS and MusicCast by not grouping the ones that will receive the alternate stream. For multiple rooms, just group the ones you want- MusicCast calls it 'linking' and they have a chain icon at the upper left corner of the screen while HEOS has a screen for using the ON/OFF sliders. Those don't, however, allow streaming to a TV or Echo/Alexa, Google Home, etc. If you're not using those, it's obviously not an issue.

I was highlighting the difference between Airplay(1:1 streaming) & Airplay2(Multi-room audio) .

So my whole family with iphones/ipads/Mac/Laptops, have standardized on Airplay2 for music streaming , across different devices & speakers.

For eg, with a simple swipe up action on iphone, without opening any extra app like Sonos or Heos, can stream the same song to my ceiling speakers via Sonos Amps in family & Kitchen , TV speakers( DefTechs) via Denon AVR , MLs in Office via AirPlay2 support etc or a sub-set.

Provides a common streaming platform, across different devices in the house.
Growing number of devices extending support for airplay2.

Trying to avoid introducing another streaming platform(Heos, MusicCast), into the mix, although , yes, as you pointed out , does provide similar capabilities and will work for my case.

hope this clarifies..

 

[AVUser001]

I believe @KenM10759 could fill you in on some of the Bluesound stuff....reviews I never bother with except as anecdotal information (unless full measurements accompany).

Thanks, will reach out.

But in general, it seems the consenus from this thread is to invest in a quality AVR or integrated amp with lower power o/p(~50 wpc) with low THD+N over 20hz-20Khz for 2 channel music at low-medium volume levels, in an office room setting. MartinLogan's recommended poweramp for this set of speakers was a broad range(20-250Wpc).
I wasnt sure if such will have the large headroom for dynamic peaks so as not to stress out the system..such as what the Amp provides(upto 200wpc into 4ohm load).

The Peak SPL calculator shows 17dB gain from amplifier, for a 101.5 dB SPL at my listening position with 50 wpc amp and 92 dB sensitivity of the MLs. Doesnt account for amp's dynamic headroom.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks, will reach out.

But in general, it seems the consenus from this thread is to invest in a quality AVR or integrated amp with lower power o/p(~50 wpc) with low THD+N over 20hz-20Khz for 2 channel music at low-medium volume levels, in an office room setting. MartinLogan's recommended poweramp for this set of speakers was a broad range(20-250Wpc).
I wasnt sure if such will have the large headroom for dynamic peaks so as not to stress out the system..such as what the Amp provides(upto 200wpc into 4ohm load).

The Peak SPL calculator shows 17dB gain from amplifier, for a 101.5 dB SPL at my listening position with 50 wpc amp and 92 dB sensitivity of the MLs. Doesnt account for amp's dynamic headroom.

You only need a high power amp if you're going to use it. I'd only worry about stressing your ears, tho. OTOH there's nothing wrong with having a 300wpc amp if you really want one I get along fine with avrs for my daily drivers and without any of my power amps attached at this time, just not listening that loud any more for the most part. YMMV....

 

[AVUser001]

You only need a high power amp if you're going to use it. I'd only worry about stressing your ears, tho. OTOH there's nothing wrong with having a 300wpc amp if you really want one I get along fine with avrs for my daily drivers and without any of my power amps attached at this time, just not listening that loud any more for the most part. YMMV....

I do have such in my HT with Marantz AVR+Emotiva Combo(300Wpc) in 7.1.4 and do enjoy movies full sound ..,but you're right, I dont need that in my office for stereo music. Just needed confirmation as I keep hearing having reserve power can only help and under powered amps can clip damaging the tweeters etc.

Think I've narrowed down my choices based on all the inputs. Probably missed the sale already.. Have until Jan to return the Sonos amps.., will find some time during the holidays to pick up one of these and try out.
I will still keep the Sonos amps for my Kitchen/Living room in-ceiling speakers.

Now I need to open a different thread on why my Marantz keep shutting down going into Protection mode..holiday project!

Thanks

 

[lovinthehd]

Now I need to open a different thread on why my Marantz keep shutting down going into Protection mode..holiday project!

Thanks

Another one of these? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=receiver+keeps+going+into+protection+site:audioholics.com&t=ffab&atb=v136-1&ia=web

 

[AVUser001]

Another one of these? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=receiver+keeps+going+into+protection+site:audioholics.com&t=ffab&atb=v136-1&ia=web

Thanks for the pointer, will look into that thread..

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the pointer, will look into that thread..

It's not a particular thread It's a search for that general type of thread here on Audioholics....generally the suggestions will be the same tho.

 

[PENG]

Rated power (watt rating) relates to average sustained output level - the amount you can turn up the volume dial before distortion kicks in.

In general yes, but need to be more specific than just "rated power", such as rated power: 100 W at <0.1% THD+N into 4 Ohm, 20-20,000 Hz. Also, "before distortion kicks in", probably should be more specific too, such as "before distortions start to rise rapidly...." something like that..

Dynamics relates transient peaks and dips - speed and accuracy of following a momentary transient in the music - this is determined by the transformers and capacitors within an amp, even at the same wattage level.

I would add that, it also relates to the rated slew rate (typically not specified for AVRs and often not mentioned in entry level separates), and the output devices. If you compare output devices of two 100 W amp, one may have the same output device, but use two in parallel. That would obviously enhance the dynamic peak capability depending on how the power supplies match up with the two compared units.

Well designed amps (tube or not) will have great dynamics resulting in better enjoyment of the music even at low/moderate levels. Demanding speakers (4 or 6 ohm) require better (not necessarily more watts) amps to be able to deliver these large spikes in current.

That's sort of an almost always true general statement that no one will/should argue.

Low/mid range avr’s and amps in desktop style amps like the Sonos will sound relatively flat, even if you can turn up the volume high.

This is not always true because it depends on the applications. If such "desktop style" amps are in fact designed for desktop use and if use that way, it may be able to sound very dynamic when used well below its rated output. Example: In my desktop system, I use two satellite style speakers and a passive subwoofer. My 50 W/4 ohm rated NAD amp sounds like it has no dynamic limits at all, and in that setup even my 5 W DIY amp would sound just as dynamic. So it all depends on one's need for "watts", that's why one should always use a good spl calculator to figure out the need, then take the number, multiply it by 200 to 300 (better obviously) and then forget about the lack of dynamic concerns.

It used to be that quality of an amp was determined by weight (not watts) - good transformers are heavy. However there are now several switched mode power supplies and class D amps that can produce great dynamics without the weight - they aren’t cheap though.

I wish more people would make this same point. Again, just to add though, modern day transformers could have better core material and wrapped in ways that the output to weight ratio could be much improved. As well, different heat sink material could also result in better performance to weight ratio, plus the use of thermal controlled quiet fans, one amp can have much better output to weight ratio. Just compared a 300 W Bryston or Anthem MCA amp to a 300 W Emotival, or Monolith class AB amp, one will see the difference immediately.

I know you know your stuff, I am just adding a little more specifics for others to consider..

 

[PENG]

Yeah, @KenM10759 went from the Powernode (IIRC) to the NAD M10 in his office system and loves it. The NAD interests me as well but is a little out of my price range ATM.
View attachment 32819

Apparently he has faith in streaming in terms of sound quality. To me, you can go as well or further using the very well reviewed D3020 plus a good external dac ($200 or so), forget about streaming but play you favorite music from a little laptop. Or if you must stream, then use a good smart phone with the dac+D3020. That is, for desktop applications, but may be fine too for near field serious listening, say <2.5 meters from your speakers.

A good alternative could be the NAD D7050, if it has to be a streamer.

 

[PENG]

I’m trying to figure out how less power gives more dynamics

That is possible if you compare the specs only of two different amps, different in terms of design/implementation but that's just for argument sake.

 

[PENG]

Thanks, will reach out.

But in general, it seems the consenus from this thread is to invest in a quality AVR or integrated amp with lower power o/p(~50 wpc) with low THD+N over 20hz-20Khz for 2 channel music at low-medium volume levels, in an office room setting. MartinLogan's recommended poweramp for this set of speakers was a broad range(20-250Wpc).
I wasnt sure if such will have the large headroom for dynamic peaks so as not to stress out the system..such as what the Amp provides(upto 200wpc into 4ohm load).

The Peak SPL calculator shows 17dB gain from amplifier, for a 101.5 dB SPL at my listening position with 50 wpc amp and 92 dB sensitivity of the MLs. Doesnt account for amp's dynamic headroom.

If you are keen on headroom/dynamic/low THD+N, all else being equal an avr should win because you end up getting a PS designed/implemented for 7 channels but will be feeding two channels only. You just have to find ways to make one look (or even hide it from sight) a two channel unit. The Marantz slimline look sleeker than Denon's equivalent, though in terms of value you will pay more for the same or less, at least that's the way it is in North America thanks to D&M's marketing and fanboys hearsay.

 

[highfigh]

Apparently he has faith in streaming in terms of sound quality. To me, you can go as well or further using the very well reviewed D3020 plus a good external dac ($200 or so), forget about streaming but play you favorite music from a little laptop. Or if you must stream, then use a good smart phone with the dac+D3020. That is, for desktop applications, but may be fine too for near field serious listening, say <2.5 meters from your speakers.

A good alternative could be the NAD D7050, if it has to be a streamer.

Putting a lot of faith in the 'little laptop's' audio card, aren't you?

 

[PENG]

Putting a lot of faith in the 'little laptop's' audio card, aren't you?

Not at all, my laptops are used with Foobar and JRiver and connected the dacs via usb only, so the audio card has no influence.

ASYNCHRONOUS USB - audiophilleo

Audiophilleo definitions

www.audiophilleo.com

The myth of the asynchronous DAC

Synchronous and asynchronous are two buzz words manufacturers realize gets people's attention. We may not understand what they mean but we've figured out asynchronous is better than being synchronous. So a new class of DAC has been born, the Asynchronous DAC - only it's mostly a myth and a...

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Choose region | Cambridge Audio

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Definition of USB DAC

What does USB DAC actually mean? Find out inside PCMag's comprehensive tech and computer-related encyclopedia.

www.pcmag.com

 

[highfigh]

Not at all, my laptops are used with Foobar and JRiver and connected the dacs via usb only, so the audio card has no influence.

ASYNCHRONOUS USB - audiophilleo

Audiophilleo definitions

www.audiophilleo.com

The myth of the asynchronous DAC

Synchronous and asynchronous are two buzz words manufacturers realize gets people's attention. We may not understand what they mean but we've figured out asynchronous is better than being synchronous. So a new class of DAC has been born, the Asynchronous DAC - only it's mostly a myth and a...

www.psaudio.com

Choose region | Cambridge Audio

www.cambridgeaudio.com

Definition of USB DAC

What does USB DAC actually mean? Find out inside PCMag's comprehensive tech and computer-related encyclopedia.

www.pcmag.com

Ah- what price point for a laptop would you consider a good starting point for this application?

 

[PENG]

Ah- what price point for a laptop would you consider a good starting point for this application?

For someone who don't already own a good one, that is a real drawback for that approach if that's what you are alluding to.. I would say for brand new, you can get buy with the entry level ones, say $300-$399 at Costco if you only play PCM files up to sampling rate of 192 kHz using foobar and others that are freeware.

If you want to be able to play higher sampling rate files and/or DSD files then budget for around $499 minimum. Mac laptops are better because then you don't need to worry about drivers. It seems that all, or almost all external DACs will work with iOS without having to download specific drivers, and iTune is free. Macs are expensive though.

 

[everettT]

That is possible if you compare the specs only of two different amps, different in terms of design/implementation but that's just for argument sake.

I definitely should have added that qualifier

Here are the specs for the speakers, if they haven't been posted. They appear to be little fussy around 100hz, which probably is fine at normal listening levels, YMMV of course

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: MartinLogan Motion 35XT Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Sorry, those are for the xt not xti, here is James review

MartinLogan Motion 35XTi Bookshelf Speaker Review

The Motion 35XTi bookshelf speaker has updated cosmetics and employs a 6.5" woofer and AMT tweeter. Read our review to see if MartinLogan keeps their signature sound in a box speaker.

www.audioholics.com

 

[AVUser001]

Here are the specs for the speakers, if they haven't been posted. They appear to be little fussy around 100hz, which probably is fine at normal listening levels, YMMV of course

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: MartinLogan Motion 35XT Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Sorry, those are for the xt not xti, here is James review

MartinLogan Motion 35XTi Bookshelf Speaker Review

The Motion 35XTi bookshelf speaker has updated cosmetics and employs a 6.5" woofer and AMT tweeter. Read our review to see if MartinLogan keeps their signature sound in a box speaker.

www.audioholics.com

Hi, I posted the specs of 35XTI , in my first post of the thread. Having read through James review, I'm happy I made the right decision with the speakers. They sound fantastic. Only issue is the lack of good sub-out from the Sonos Amps, which prompted my quest for finding a suitable alternative .

However, does it change (esp prominent midrange response) any of the Integrated amp recommendations?

Thanks