Some Buying Advice Please

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Oh, and if you are really itching for that 6012... consider the denon 4400. Think its same price right now.
Good point, the 4400 most closely compares to the Marantz 7012. But unless he needs the extra channels, I'm not sure what justification there is to spend the extra coin. I have an old SR-6001 that still works great (aside from the features not being up-to-date ... and has Audyssey XT, not XT-32)! I can't say for certain now, but at that point in time, the 6001 and the 7001 had identical amp sections. The 7001 was rated 5WPC more, but the reality was they simply down rated the 6001 amp by 5WPC so buyers would think they were getting a better amp along with whatever extra pre-pro bells and whistles the 7001 offered. From a manufacturing/business/marketing perspective, it is cheaper to design and build one amp section for both models than it is to attempt to save money by having a different assembly process for a slightly weaker amp. We all know that 5 Watts is worth very little added to 100+ watts, but marketing wanted a comparison of the two models to show across the board improvements!

The outlaw sale ended at midnight eastern time.
My link has it lasting through today.

https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/holidaypromotion.html
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Eek! when I asked them yesterday, she said midnight this morn... coulda been a slip. Get that deal if you still can!
BTW, Kew, I went with the monoblocks. :)

Good point, the 4400 most closely compares to the Marantz 7012. But unless he needs the extra channels, I'm not sure what justification there is to spend the extra coin.
Very true. Just at the point of consideration, I wish my hindsight had shown me some other options. No buyers remorse with that 6012... just wish I hadn't gotten the lemon. That said, I also didn't get the differences and similarities with Denon and might've liked to research a bit more... For me, at this point, its moot, and I don't know that I would've necessarily made a different decision.
 
M

MLazur

Audiophyte
Consider the Yamaha Aventage 2080 or 3080. I he AI in the receiver is nothing but amazing. The sound and realism of each scene without adjusting your settings is remarkable!!! On top of that. The sound quality in this receiver is extremely deep. If you want to crank it up. The quality remains the same but you get louder. The amp doesn’t run out of juice. This amp weighs just under 40 pounds. It’s a beast
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The effect of diminishing returns I have found is also true of speakers. It is where I differ from a lot of the old school folks. Not that the old school assertion is wrong here, there is a lot wisdom in it that still applies. Nonetheless, with the advances in speaker technology and all the over achieving brands that are out there. I just think it is a bit outdated.

Here is the point I am trying to make. Do not cheap out on the components. Often when I go to friends house they will have an $3000 speaker package and then power it $500 receiver; that either runs out of steam on the peaks or its pricepoit compromises gets magnified by the speakers. IMHO folks who do this sort of thing are not getting the best out of their investment. With a quality source component you will always get the best out the speaker. Speakers do not always get the best out of the source component. (Conversely I believe you do not put in a speaker that are on the cheap either, invest some money into a good product) So I always lean towards investing more of my budget into electronics than most do. Then in a Speaker, look to purchase a high quality, over achieving, budget conscience brands that can do 95% of what the notable ones are able to. Again, living with something like an Salk versus a comparable B&W system that comes in at over double the cost .

In short, don't spend so much money on the speaker package that you no longer have enough left over to purchase an quality receiver to power them. I found that road leads to a lot of disappointment and additional expense.
Here is the way it should be done:
1) Determine the speakers that sound best to you. This is done first because aside from the acoustics of your room and the quality of the recording, speakers are the component that presents the biggest impact on the sound you hear! Differences between speakers are more obvious than differences between DVD players or amps (assuming your amp has enough power for your speakers).
2) Determine how much power your speakers need and buy an AVR/amp with the power you need and features you want. There are calculators for this and the guys here give good advice or can tell you what they use with the speakers you chose. The JBL 580 has a sensitivity of 90dB and the 590 has a sensitivity of 92dB, so power is really not an issue (JBL/Harman is one company I expect to provide accurate specs) and he can really get away with buying almost any mainstream AVR.
If his speakers were Status acoustics 8T's like Gene has, then I would be recommending he still get an AVR like the 3400, but he also add on an external amp capable of staying stable down to 2 Ohms (which can get very pricey)!

I used to have a pair of Paradigm Signature S-2's. I drove them with the SR-6001 I mentioned earlier (bought for $350 refurbished from Accessories4Less in 2009). Because these were Paradigm's top of the line speakers, some people said I should use more than just a mid-level AVR to drive them. I bought an Emotiva XPA-2 and set it up. Thought I heard an improvement, but two years later I let a friend borrow the amp for a couple of weeks to test with his system and didn't really hear the sound get worse. When I got the amp back, I did a comparison and could not tell a difference. I assume the difference I heard when I first put the new amp in was more of an unconscious response to the excitement of having this shiny new amp I had read so much positive about! Once the honeymoon period was over, any difference in the sound was not great enough for me to detect in my room with the 2 minutes delay it took to swap out the amp/speaker wires. Now that I've spent the last 9-10 years here learning about this stuff, it is obvious to me. The Paradigm S-2's have an efficiency of 91dB and the SR-6001 can pump more clean power into them that I would ever want to be in the room with! The S-2's are resolving speakers, but paying more for amplification once you have ample power is not going to make much difference (if any) in sound quality!

I do agree that diminishing return on speakers is "a thing", but with the budget we are discussing here, it is absolutely not a factor. And even so, it is different. I can still hear clear differences between speakers even at the $10,000 each level (which is as expensive as I have had the chance to hear), but the ones I compared were all clearly very good, and it was hard to say which I preferred! IOW, diminishing returns in the sense of how much "better" one is than another.

Perhaps another way of looking at it is I have never heard two speakers of different series and/or different brands that did not clearly sound different. I have swapped out several AVR's Pre-pros, and amps over the years and as long as the speakers I used didn't have special needs, I have never heard a difference that I would "hang my hat on" (unless it involved using a different sound setting or EQ system). In "pure direct", my Denon sounds like my Marantz that sounds like whatever amp I pair with my Onkyo Pre-pro!

The bottom line is the design of electronics is a comparatively mature science (aside from those deliberately trying out new approaches), but any speaker designer (or DIY'er) will quickly tell you how many places they had to make choices that compromised their design. Speaker design has plenty of science behind it, but there is still a tremendous variety among the results.

But to the point of your post and this thread, to say that speakers reach the point of diminishing returns in the context of the budget being discussed is absurd! I know, and have compared lots of speaker in this price range ($500/speaker, tops), and if you name a speaker, I can easily name one for a few $100 more that most people will consider decisively better.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Consider the Yamaha Aventage 2080 or 3080. I he AI in the receiver is nothing but amazing. The sound and realism of each scene without adjusting your settings is remarkable!!! On top of that. The sound quality in this receiver is extremely deep. If you want to crank it up. The quality remains the same but you get louder. The amp doesn’t run out of juice. This amp weighs just under 40 pounds. It’s a beast
I am very curious about how AI is used!
Do you know of any good articles describing it? Does Yamaha have a white paper on it (a technical description of what it does ... as opposed to Yamaha marketing copy telling how great it is).

However, please consider that for the budget, a $1200 AVR is not a reasonable option.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Eek! when I asked them yesterday, she said midnight this morn... coulda been a slip. Get that deal if you still can!
BTW, Kew, I went with the monoblocks. :)


Very true. Just at the point of consideration, I wish my hindsight had shown me some other options. No buyers remorse with that 6012... just wish I hadn't gotten the lemon. That said, I also didn't get the differences and similarities with Denon and might've liked to research a bit more... For me, at this point, its moot, and I don't know that I would've necessarily made a different decision.
M2200? How many did you end up getting? I really am curious to buy them at some point depending on what speakers I end up with in my TV room. NHL puck drops in 2021 in Seattle so I have a little time to plan my upgrade. :)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
M2200? How many did you end up getting? I really am curious to buy them at some point depending on what speakers I end up with in my TV room. NHL puck drops in 2021 in Seattle so I have a little time to plan my upgrade. :)
Ha. All the way, baby. 5 of them! I really want the BMRs to hold their own against the Phil-3s when they arrive.
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
But to the point of your post and this thread, to say that speakers reach the point of diminishing returns in the context of the budget being discussed is absurd! I know, and have compared lots of speaker in this price range ($500/speaker, tops),and if you name a speaker, I can easily name one for a few $100 more that most people will consider decisively better.
point of diminishing returns in the context of the budget being discussed is absurd!
Not what I was trying to say at all. I was speaking in the context of pairing a $500 receiver with a $3000 speaker package. I tend to see a diminished return of investment in this setup because all I could hear was the hash of the receiver and its rolled off peaks. Those speakers could do so much more with an Anthem MRX 720.

I was advising against choking off the performance of a good pair of speakers by feeding them something from receiver that does not have decent power and good sound reproduction. Even though the JBL's are efficient. Power is needed to manage those explosions and jets flying over head. The Denon you recommended retails in the $900.00 range. Why that product? Why not put forth $179.00 unit from Big Box Electronics? I am sure it came out of understanding that to get the best out of the JBL's you have to drive them with a quality component.

I also take issue with at these price points. What does that mean? What has been proposed here is not a $300.00 home Theater in a box from KameApart It is a $900.00 receiver that was on sale, paired with a great buy on a pair of speaker that retails for nearly $2000.00. Total retail cost of nearly $3k. None of what been proposed here are bargain bin products. In my experience any pair of speakers that nears the $1K price point have enough resolution to be affected by a poor choices of electronics.

A final bone of contention just because we differ on what the importance of a speaker versus amplification/source within a system. Does not necessarily mean I lack exposure or experience, nor that my observations lack merit. I for one do not call your observations absurd, but respect where you are coming from.

A little about me. I am an Audiophile. (AKA Total Nut Job about music and its accurate reproduction) I have more than once toured Audio Research, Magnepan, AVA, Atmasphere, and Bel Canto. I have listened to home made electronics and speakers at my hobbyist group, to cost no object, factory test systems, that are in the price range of a luxury home. Personally own 4 different makes and models of speakers in 4 separate music systems ranging from $300.00 a pair to $6000.00.
I am no engineer that is for sure. From the posts here, there is a lot I am learning about the science and technology. Nonetheless, I have put enough blood, sweat, and tears into the systems that I own to have formulated a pretty good idea where some of the pitfalls are. My habits tend to lean more towards listening to the music not the gear. Nor do I subscribe to the notion that all things at a given price point sound the same or a watt is a watt. Measurements do not mean much to me. There place is to serve as valid proof of concept, and act as a smoking gun that a piece of gear will sound great. They are not a fool proof indicator that a piece of gear actually will.

In closing:
To illustrate what I have been trying advise against. If I take the 60 watt vintage Pioneer SA 8500 out of my office to drive my Thieles @ an 4 ohm load with only 87db efficiency. I can guarantee you that you would not be happy with the result. Since your deal was giving insight to the advantage of obtaining a better speaker within a given product line. You have never said directly that the choice of receiver does not matter. The example I gave here is to point out that it is wise to budget for one. Do not read into things anymore than that.

The compromises I choose to make for myself is to budget a little more for quality component and focus on finding a overachieving budget brands that provides great sound at a great price. I strongly advise against cheeping out on speakers. Nor never made the assertion that moving up within a product's speaker line would not be a worthy upgrade. I can assure you my HT setup is not made up of $250.00 mini bookshelves because I and cannot hear the difference between those and the top of line towers that I built it around.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Here is the point I am trying to make. Do not cheap out on the components. Often when I go to friends house they will have an $3000 speaker package and then power it $500 receiver; that either runs out of steam on the peaks or its pricepoit compromises gets magnified by the speakers. IMHO folks who do this sort of thing are not getting the best out of their investment.
that either runs out of steam on the peaks
I am in complete agreement with you on this point. That is Item 2 of my recommended approach:
2) Determine how much power your speakers need and buy an AVR/amp with the power you need
or its pricepoit compromises gets magnified by the speakers.
This is the part I am in disagreement over. If the unit has adequate power and is of competent design (and It is hard to find an amp that is not). Please explain to me what pricepoint compromises my $850 MSRP AVR (which delivers ample power to drive the speakers properly) would have relative to my $3000 MSRP Pre-Pro along with outlaw mono-blocks. As far as I can tell, it is all about features once you have ample power.
Is there any difference in sound between these two setups? Maybe, but it is not something I can detect. I expect one has a S/N ratio of maybe 100dB and the other 108dB

The closest I can come to agreeing with you is to say don't buy cheap POS electronics which may not be designed to normal home audio standards.
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
If the unit has adequate power and is of competent design (and It is hard to find an amp that is not). Please explain to me what pricepoint compromises my $850 MSRP AVR (which delivers ample power to drive the speakers properly) would have relative to my $3000 MSRP Pre-Pro along with outlaw mono-blocks. As far as I can tell, it is all about features once you have ample power.
We are are not in much disagreement. I really appreciate your insights. It would seem the only thing we would contend with each other on is whether or not an receiver of poor quality are common place. I certainly agree most of what you find is going to be decent product. However I think the there is still far too much that is built (For lack of a better term) to be disposable. That being said most reputable dealers won't stock that sort of product.

Be Well.
 
G

goldcrown22

Audiophyte
Thanks all for help , went with JBL Studio 590, 520c, somme b15 rears. HSU Vtf 2 , and Denon x3400
Can’t wait to get it all hooked up
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Thanks all for help , went with JBL Studio 590, 520c, dome b15 tears. HSU Vtf 2 , and Denon x3400
Can’t wait to get it all hooked up
Very nice system! You might try using a lower than normal crossover with a setup like that since the 590s are bound to have excellent midbass output, not that the Hsu is a slacker in that department. Also, run the Hsu in 1 port mode, so set it up by sealing one of the ports and flipping the EQ switch to 'EQ1'. That will get you the most bass extension.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks all for help , went with JBL Studio 590, 520c, dome b15 tears. HSU Vtf 2 , and Denon x3400
Can’t wait to get it all hooked up
Right on goldcrown, I hope it all works out!!! Cheers!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks all for help , went with JBL Studio 590, 520c, somme b15 rears. HSU Vtf 2 , and Denon x3400
Can’t wait to get it all hooked up
Daaaammn that set up is gonna sound killer you gotta send us some pics handsome feedback after you get it all set up!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Daaaammn that set up is gonna sound killer you gotta send us some pics handsome feedback after you get it all set up!
F@$$!: spell check man meant to say and some feedback. This spell check thing is pissing me off I want to start a thread on how to turn it off your Damn phone lol
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Thanks all for help , went with JBL Studio 590, 520c, somme b15 rears. HSU Vtf 2 , and Denon x3400
Can’t wait to get it all hooked up
Congrats and happy listening. It is my wish that you be blown away by it.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
F@$$!: spell check man meant to say and some feedback. This spell check thing is pissing me off I want to start a thread on how to turn it off your Damn phone lol
Handsome eh?. LOL :)

I got a text from a coworker a couple years ago that was autocorrected to “murder”. I was laughing pretty hard at that one. :)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
We are are not in much disagreement. I really appreciate your insights. It would seem the only thing we would contend with each other on is whether or not an receiver of poor quality are common place. I certainly agree most of what you find is going to be decent product. However I think the there is still far too much that is built (For lack of a better term) to be disposable. That being said most reputable dealers won't stock that sort of product.

Be Well.
I interpreted your statements as indicating that high dollar speakers need high dollar electronics. However, IME, once you reach competent electronics, as long as there is ample power, there is no reason at all to spend more money on electronics (unless it is for a specific feature). The least expensive AVR I have bought is a refurbished Denon AVR-1712 for which I paid $229 from A4L and it is still in service on a daily basis and sounds fine. I might Guess MSRP between $600 and $700-ish. So yes, I do generally believe AVR's matter. I look at it as don't cheap out and buy crap, but after that it is all about ample power, and having $10,000 speakers doesn't leave the $700 MSRP AVR wanting as long as adequate power is available. That said, you should never pay $700 for a $700 MSRP AVR!
I have two integrated amps of dubious origin and I must say that they sound fine for casual listening, but I have not yet set up an A-B comparison and listened critically.
One is the Klipsch Powergate which is 100WPC and lists for $500 and I paid less than $200 for it. The other is SMSL AD-18 which is 80WPC and sells for ~$140 (IIRC) I don't remember if there was a MSRP, but ~$140 is what it always is sold at.
I will not recommend these until I set them up with nice speakers and listen closely. I would currently only recommend either for casual listening / background music.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks all for help , went with JBL Studio 590, 520c, somme b15 rears. HSU Vtf 2 , and Denon x3400
Can’t wait to get it all hooked up
That is a great system and would represent reasonable value even if you paid normal prices for everything, but with discounts, you're getting "campaign sound on a beer budget"!
 
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