Some Buying Advice Please

Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
here have been too many instances where someone with "golden ears" participated in a double blind test (comparing two amps that they were certain they could hear a difference between) and without knowing which was which, they were unable to consistently pick which was their preferred amp.
Could not agree with you more on this one. I have seen this played out way too many times. I for one struggle to tell the difference between the notable brands. Even between Tube versus Solid State designs.

I freely admit I do not own a pair of "Golden Ears". I like to think in a face off between similarly rated tube integrated products from AR versus a more budget friendly Jolida. I would hear the difference. However, would most likely not.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
If his speakers were Status acoustics 8T's like Gene has, then I would be recommending he still get an AVR like the 3400, but he also add on an external amp capable of staying stable down to 2 Ohms (which can get very pricey)!

I used to have a pair of Paradigm Signature S-2's. I drove them with the SR-6001 I mentioned earlier (bought for $350 refurbished from Accessories4Less in 2009). Because these were Paradigm's top of the line speakers, some people said I should use more than just a mid-level AVR to drive them. I bought an Emotiva XPA-2 and set it up. Thought I heard an improvement, but two years later I let a friend borrow the amp for a couple of weeks to test with his system and didn't really hear the sound get worse. When I got the amp back, I did a comparison and could not tell a difference. I assume the difference I heard when I first put the new amp in was more of an unconscious response to the excitement of having this shiny new amp
I know the crown amps will do the job to drive any speaker. I believe the Crown amps will play fine at 2 ohm impedances and for a not very expensive price. I agree with getting an AVR with preouts so he can add something like a crown later on. I would recommend the Yamaha brand for reliability and performance. Yamahas are like Toyotas....... never breaks down... well.... eventually but not any time soon. I've also had good experiences with Pioneer. If you can get a second hand Pioneer Elite model with specs that suit your needs then that will serve you well for a few years. The higher end models have good DACs and amps sections. Digital processing offers many options as well.

So, spend more on the best speakers you can get and think about looking into getting a second hand AVR with preouts from Yamaha or Pioneer Elite series.

Check www.canuckaudiomart.com for some used gear. I've used this site many times.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Not sure I can . When I listen to speakers powered by a Mac there seems to be a tad more bass response. When compared to say from a similarly rated, Bryston, BAT, or Classe.

I would not say I am hearing voicing. Macs for all intents and purposes I consider neutral. I suppose what I hear could be the way it handles the speaker. Being so powerful they handle the damping of a system's woofer very well, which could be why I think I hear more bass output from a system when powered by one. This is subjective of course, but the reps at the Hi Fi shop I frequent make the same assertion without any confirmation/solicitation from me. I would concede to the more analytical and engineering minded that it is mass case of psychoacoustic effect. :eek:

In short, I like the way Macs handle Bass so I gravitate to them as amplifier of choice to handle the Bass heavy material I listen to.
You should check out TLS Guy's system (follow the link in his signature in my link below) he has recording engineers out of Minneapolis drive hours to his home to use his system as a reference for their masters. He knows a lot about audio and does not worry about $ if he believes it will get better sound. But if you read this post, you will understand that it is simplicity of the design with the associated reliability (in addition to cool running and ability to handle almost any load) that caused him to go with multiple Quad 909 Amps for his amplifiers. These are very inexpensive amps in the context of your post. I don't expect this one instance to sway you from your opinions, but you should check his system and perhaps keep an eye out for his posts as he is a brilliant guy (Medical Doctor by profession, built and designed his speakers using TLS bass porting system...which is wonderful bass if you have not heard one...he is one of few who can properly rebuild a quality reel-to-reel from that era, and is the guy the locals go to when their tractor/snow-plow quits running)!

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/quad-99-preamp-909-power-amp-combo.78490/#post-863121
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I know the crown amps will do the job to drive any speaker. I believe the Crown amps will play fine at 2 ohm impedances and for a not very expensive price. I agree with getting an AVR with preouts so he can add something like a crown later on. I would recommend the Yamaha brand for reliability and performance. Yamahas are like Toyotas....... never breaks down... well.... eventually but not any time soon. I've also had good experiences with Pioneer. If you can get a second hand Pioneer Elite model with specs that suit your needs then that will serve you well for a few years. The higher end models have good DACs and amps sections. Digital processing offers many options as well.

So, spend more on the best speakers you can get and think about looking into getting a second hand AVR with preouts from Yamaha or Pioneer Elite series.

Check www.canuckaudiomart.com for some used gear. I've used this site many times.
Yeah, you've covered the essence!
Pro audio amps are generally the best value/dollar...and Crown is known to be a good choice with quiet fans for home audio (although there are others as well).
AVR has the advantage of high volume production and gets you more flexibility and capability than a stereo receiver of the same price. Yamaha does seem to be a little better for reliability, but they have a blemished record considering the poor quality of the amplification in their lower level AVR's such as the A860 compounded by weak pre-out signals that are not compatible with many external amps. If you can get one of their more premium AVR's used for a good price, that is one of the best options. But if you are buying new, the higher level Yamaha's are pretty pricey for many! When you have last year's model Denon for sale (like the 3400 at $600) that is a hard to beat option among new AVR's. I am glad we have A4L and the used markets as options, because it would suck to need to spend $500-$600 on a receiver when your budget is $1000 or less.
You make a point I failed to mention. Pre-outs are a nice security/hedge against the possibility of the AVR not having ample power,
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
My apologies, in order to keep my post from being pages long. I do not do a good job at fully expressing my views. Let me try to elaborate. Like you, I am of the opinion an well engineered $500.00 component, can be more than adequate to run an expensive speaker package with enjoyable results. Also, I would agree in that price category there would be little difference in sound between makes. Some could make a case that Pioneer and Marantz sound a bit different, but if I am truthful with myself I probably could not pick out which is which.

In the instance of the my friends HT setup the piece that serves as the weakest link, is his receiver. Which was originally part of an HT package. When mated with the speakers that came with it, it sounded fine. When paired with the new speakers that asked more from it. Its did not work as well.

Citing the Anthem MRX 720 as good choice for that speaker package was not to illustrate a certain starting pricepoit. The intent more was to provide an example of an well engineered product, that overachieves. I think there are much more moderately priced product that would do equally well.
Citing the Anthem with it's fairly mundane and relatively expensive amplification is curious. How does it "overachieve"? I think your posts generally point towards silly amplification reasoning myself.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Anyone buy from jbl before directly? Speakers went frieght with an almost 3 week delivery time , even though when bought said Ups Ground with 1 week delivery., I had to call to even find out about that.
I got each of my JBLs via Amazon/AcousticSoundDesign deals rather than JBL and all shipped rapidly via standard UPS ground. The packaging on the 590s was kinda beat but no damage, the 580s were much better packed (both seemed to be factory packing, too....probably more relevant for containerized shipping, too). Good score at this price nonetheless, hopefully they arrive sooner than later!
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Citing the Anthem with it's fairly mundane and relatively expensive amplification is curious. How does it "overachieve"? I think your posts generally point towards silly amplification reasoning myself.
Go listen to one. Research it a bit, plenty of reviews on the web and you tube. Draw your own conclusions. If you cannot figure it out for your self. There is no way I could ever explain it to you.
 
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Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
Handsome eh?. LOL :)

I got a text from a coworker a couple years ago that was autocorrected to “murder”. I was laughing pretty hard at that one. :)
Worst typo ever.png
this will always be my favorite autocorrect fail
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Citing the Anthem with it's fairly mundane and relatively expensive amplification is curious. How does it "overachieve"? I think your posts generally point towards silly amplification reasoning myself.
Different does not equate silly. Silly is to be so close minded.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Different does not equate silly. Silly is to be so close minded.
Okay, how does the Anthem overachieve? I'm open minded but have seen nothing that indicates Anthem has a particular advantage in this regard.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Go listen to one. Research it a bit, plenty of reviews on the web and you tube. Draw your own conclusions. If you cannot figure it out for your self. There is no way I could ever explain it to you.
Send it to me and I'll be glad to test it out. "Go listen to one" is not much of an option without driving several hours and then it would just be in a store environment of questionable use for such a "test".
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Send it to me and I'll be glad to test it out. "Go listen to one" is not much of an option without driving several hours and then it would just be in a store environment of questionable use for such a "test".[/QUOTE

Hopefully you will find the opportunity to give one a listen sometime. Not worth driving several hour to do so though. Certainly not worth the time and effort to mail you one. Not so sure you could get anything constructive out of it. It would be a waste of time on both our parts.
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Okay, how does the Anthem overachieve? I'm open minded but have seen nothing that indicates Anthem has a particular advantage in this regard.
Without you having any opportunity to listen to one. I am not sure if it is a good use of my time to try and explain.

Here is a feeble attempt:
Built like a tank, (Smaller footprint than Yamaha's or Marantz's similarly priced offerings, but a wee bit heavier) plenty of power, clarity, and bass handling. They maintain total control of your speakers even under difficult loads. ARC is a notable feature but not the main selling point. (Plenty of other good room correction systems exist. Is ARC the best one? That is questionable. ) Of the many higher end receiver in its price category it is the custom street rod. Stripped down and built for performance.

Anthem's primary design goal is towards good sound reproduction, not become a latent point of sale for streaming services. DTS Play-Fi is all you get. Since it is built to be something that sounds good, first and foremost; IMHO this is how a product like the MRX720 over achieves.

At $2k plus price point they are not a bargain. They should have an hell of a lot more features than they do. If your criteria for over achievement, is a $500.00 receiver that has the features and specs of an $1500.00 one, any Anthem product is a total failure.

That being said, there is a reason why the Anthem Pre. and Amp. reviewed so well here. Much of their receiver's amplifier and preamp section has trickle down technology from their flagship products.( Prepro and Multichannel amps) . The receivers are built to emulate the sound of these even pricier separates.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/anthem-str-preamp-power-amplifier
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Without you having any opportunity to listen to one. I am not sure if it is a good use of my time to try and explain.

Here is a feeble attempt:
Built like a tank, (Smaller footprint than Yamaha's or Marantz's similarly priced offerings, but a wee bit heavier) plenty of power, clarity, and bass handling. They maintain total control of your speakers even under difficult loads. ARC is a notable feature but not the main selling point. (Plenty of other good room correction systems exist. Is ARC the best one? That is questionable. ) Of the many higher end receiver in its price category it is the custom street rod. Stripped down and built for performance.

Anthem's primary design goal is towards good sound reproduction, not become a latent point of sale for streaming services. DTS Play-Fi is all you get. Since it is built to be something that sounds good, first and foremost; IMHO this is how a product like the MRX720 over achieves.

At $2k plus price point they are not a bargain. They should have an hell of a lot more features than they do. If your criteria for over achievement, is a $500.00 receiver that has the features and specs of an $1500.00 one, any Anthem product is a total failure.

That being said, there is a reason why the Anthem Pre. and Amp. reviewed so well here. Much of their receiver's amplifier and preamp section has trickle down technology from their flagship products.( Prepro and Multichannel amps) . The receivers are built to emulate the sound of these even pricier separates.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/anthem-str-preamp-power-amplifier
Your explanation doesn't mean much and your description of "plenty of power, clarity and bass handling" means what? I've seen bench tests of the "power" and it's not impressive. I do hear nice things about ARC. I certainly agree this is not something I'd travel extra for nor pay extra for (maybe a tad for ARC if everything else were relatively equivalent). They just aren't exciting values in avr world. My avr has wonderful sound reproduction already.
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Your explanation doesn't mean much and your description of "plenty of power, clarity and bass handling" means what? I've seen bench tests of the "power" and it's not impressive. I do hear nice things about ARC. I certainly agree this is not something I'd travel extra for nor pay extra for (maybe a tad for ARC if everything else were relatively equivalent). They just aren't exciting values in avr world. My avr has wonderful sound reproduction already.
I have no doubt that your AVR would be most enjoyable to me. I am not an equipment SNOB and do not consider an AVR as being sub par.

A part from AV receivers. Have you listened to anything above the $1k price range? Gone to a factory floor and seen how the equipment is made, listened to a reference/test system? Do you have any experience with cost no object systems that have been meticulously set up to put their best sonic foot forward? In short, to have experience with somebody's attempt to set up the most musically accurate system possible? Second to none. I recommend that you do not limit things to just your power meter and oscilloscope alone there is a bigger world to explore.You are missing out.

As far as the MRX720 is concerned. Forgive me, I cannot describe something in objective terms that is an subjective experience. You have to compare and contrast one for yourself. Even then I have serious doubts that you would see any merit to my claim as to what the Anthem has to offer. Hopefully I am wrong, so strong is your apparent bias that receivers that measure the same sound the same. An $2k plus receivers is a waste of money for you. I seriously doubt you would allow yourself to perceive any difference, let alone hear how it would over achieve when compared to other product in its category.

I may be reading too much into this, you heavily lean on bench test results to determine the merits of a design and its sonic Prowse? Unfair to put words in your mouth, but the point you are trying to make... If it measures the same/good, it will sound the same/good.

We will never see eye to eye on that one. I refer to measurements sure, as proof of concept and solid engineering principles. They are invaluable piece of information for me in that regard, but they are not the ending point. I go to factory floors and boutique showrooms and listen. What I hear determines what I spend my money on.

I see why measurement need to be so heavy a factor for you. Having limited access to what is out there, I would want something that gives me some modicum of protection against purchasing a disappointment. Measurement are good starting point for avoiding such a disaster. Especially if I cannot readily take it back. So I think I get it.

I on the other hand I am not limited in such a way. I will look at a measurements to build interest but before buying. I make sure to have to have face time with the product itself. The dealers I work with lets you audition expensive pieces of gear first. I seldom do business with anybody that does not.

For what its worth.
I have pretty much made the same observations about measurements as Dan D’Agostino.

Here is an example of how I formed my own bias about the value of measurements, and how now days they do not have as much sway over me that perhaps they should.

Back in the day there was an Audio Darling that use put ads in all the audio rags with following tag line. (I am paraphrasing) Measures so well, we see no need to listen.

Today, you do not see that product around. Why? Many found the company's offerings to be awful, if I remember right the company eventually wound up defunct. My own personal experience with one of their amps is it did not sound as good as the measurements indicated. I, along with so many others, did not like the sound.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have no doubt that your AVR would be most enjoyable to me. I am not an equipment SNOB and do not consider an AVR as being sub par.

A part from AV receivers. Have you listened to anything above the $1k price range? Gone to a factory floor and seen how the equipment is made, listened to a reference/test system? Do you have any experience with cost no object systems that have been meticulously set up to put their best sonic foot forward? In short, to have experience with somebody's attempt to set up the most musically accurate system possible? Second to none. Do not limit things to just your experience alone there is a bigger world to explore.

As far as the MRX720 is concerned. Forgive me, I cannot describe something in objective terms that is an subjective experience. You have to compare and contrast one for yourself. Even then I have serious doubts that you would see any merit to my claim as to what the Anthem has to offer. Hopefully I am wrong, so strong is your apparent bias that a $2k plus receivers is a waste of money, I seriously doubt you would allow yourself to perceive any difference, let alone hear how it would over achieve when compared to other product in its category.

I may be reading too much into this, you heavily lean on bench test results to determine the merits of a design and its sonic Prowse? Unfair to put words in your mouth, but the point you are trying to make... If it measures the same/good, it will sound the same/good.

We will never see eye to eye on that one. I refer to measurements sure, as proof of concept and solid engineering principles. They are invaluable piece of information for me in that regard, but they are not the ending point. I go to factory floors and boutique showrooms and listen. What I hear determines what I spend my money on.

I see why measurement need to be so heavy a factor for you. Having limited access to what is out there, I would want something that gives me some modicum of protection against purchasing a disappointment. Measurement are good starting point for avoiding such a disaster. Especially if I cannot readily take it back. So I think I get it.

I on the other hand I am not limited in such a way. I will look at a measurements to build interest but before buying. I make sure to have to have face time with the product itself. The dealers I work with lets you audition expensive pieces of gear first. I seldom do business with anybody that does not.

Here is an example of my own bias about the value of measurements, and how they do not have as much sway over me that perhaps they should.

Back in the day there was an Audio Darling that use put ads in all the audio rags with following tag line. (I am paraphrasing) Measures so well, we see no need to listen.

Today, you do not see that product around. Many found the company's offerings to be awful, if I remember right the company eventually wound up defunct. My own personal experience with one of their amps is it did not sound as good as the measurements indicated. I, along with so many others, did not like the sound.
So you like your Anthem I take it? The way you shop is way different from myself. You also put far more importance on the electronics than I do as well as assume a lot about what measurements and retail pricing I consider important. You were talking about amp power, Anthem avrs don't have an advantage there. They might in REQ. Not in price. Good luck with your shopping methods.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So you like your Anthem I take it? The way you shop is way different from myself. You also put far more importance on the electronics than I do as well as assume a lot about what measurements and retail pricing I consider important. You were talking about amp power, Anthem avrs don't have an advantage there. They might in REQ. Not in price. Good luck with your shopping methods.
They didn't measure better than their lower priced competitors that benefit from the economy of scale either. My Anthem amp don't sound different/better than my D&M AVP/AVRs either, but you will never convince their fans.

Below are the S&V bench tests for the flag ship Anthem AVR and your AVR-4520 (Marantz/Yamaha's flagships will be similar)

In pure direct level matched AB comparison, even SBT, I don't believe anyone can really tell them apart, but then the believers/non believers will come up with some arguments regardless, futile exercise..:D



1546098763529.png


1546098816847.png
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
They didn't measure better than their lower priced competitors that benefit from the economy of scale either. My Anthem amp don't sound different/better than my D&M AVP/AVRs either, but you will never convince their fans.

Below are the S&V bench tests for the flag ship Anthem AVR and your AVR-4520 (Marantz/Yamaha's flagships will be similar)

In pure direct level matched AB comparison, even SBT, I don't believe anyone can really tell them apart, but then the believers/non believers will come up with some arguments regardless, futile exercise..:D



View attachment 27590

View attachment 27591
The power with 5/7ch driven is even better with the 4520. Yet that Anthem retails for $3500.....over double the final msrp set by Denon ($1600) but they're not the same generation for Atmos/4k either.
 
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