Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
I don't see myself buying a $1000 bottle of wine any time soon :)
I'll buy one when I win $1M or more ! It's vintage stuff, and contrarily to most vintage audio stuff, there will be an obvious difference in the perception if it was well conserved over the years !:D
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Can I add a $1000 bottle of wine to be classified as "snake oil" even though there's no oil in it?
I work with wine, if you want a professional answer it is not snake oil, at least not every 1k bottle.

You'd have to specify what you have in mind. Making a wine that can age well, and then not selling it, but having it occupy your cellar with your investment tied, it builds the price over time. Here it doesn't even matter do you like aged wine, no one is saying it is universally more appealing (although I’m not the one to go after universal categories since the only thing I’ve seen in wine business is that the more time you spend with them, the closer you get to what the old masters are praising and recommending). Some other things raise the price of wine.

Just a couple of info:

Wine does change with time.

Good wine from good grapes well stored will change for the better.

The more you know about wine making, the better your wine will age, not every wine is for aging (while OTOH if I cut and connect a right gauge of copper wire, I get what Nordost sells).

Wine has primary aromas (from the grape variety), secondary aromas (from what the winemaker did) and tertiary aromas from what happens with age. (Fourth are sometimes mentioned as aromas from the soil – this is dubious although we use the markers by large to describe certain aromas)

Wine that didn’t age WILL NOT have tertiary aromas. Bad wine WILL NOT get better with age. Ageing means investing, result is always risky.

Certain plots of land yield better raw material. You can’t get more than you get. Forcing vine to give more bunches will knock down quality – what people appreciate in grapes is the result of poverty, struggling and under nurturing (as opposed to what vine would probably prefer – to prosper wide and large). So you can’t produce more than you get.

Certain winemakers still show more talent in winemaking than others, not everything has been written down.

As I said in the beginning; after a while in this business, you start appreciating some of the same stuff the old farts appreciate; wine that can show primary, secondary and tertiary aromas and still have good structure (acidity), harmony (your mouth don’t get tired of it after a long evening of couple of bottles) and balance (not one single aroma jumps out and attracts attention, but it’s rather a wide variety of aromas of same intensity), it leaves a long lasting taste in mouth that doesn’t fall apart in first 30sec + it shows some of the terroir specificity... What can I tell you... It is very hard to make.

Once you try a wine that survived 50 years and is complex beyond what you can detect and compare it with plonk that dies after 1.2 – 2 years, you ask yourself; “the f...”

Of course there is also branding and fashion, but I didn’t want to touch those. I think this is enough to show it’s not a clear case like it is with some more technological stuff.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Man, I forgot all about the author of this thread... phew. He was exhausting.
Not at all. It was the members of AH who were exhausting in this case. The guy ran never looking back. After literally repeating ten times he understands cable did nothing, people were still explaining that to him. I think his thread uncovered that the subject of cables went into a frustration with this lot. Which is expected, but even if so, not less sad.

The guy was funny, he had spirit, good sense of humor...
 
HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
I work with wine, if you want a professional answer it is not snake oil, at least not every 1k bottle.

You'd have to specify what you have in mind. Making a wine that can age well, and then not selling it, but having it occupy your cellar with your investment tied, it builds the price over time. Here it doesn't even matter do you like aged wine, no one is saying it is universally more appealing (although I’m not the one to go after universal categories since the only thing I’ve seen in wine business is that the more time you spend with them, the closer you get to what the old masters are praising and recommending). Some other things raise the price of wine.

Just a couple of info:

Wine does change with time.

Good wine from good grapes well stored will change for the better.

The more you know about wine making, the better your wine will age, not every wine is for aging (while OTOH if I cut and connect a right gauge of copper wire, I get what Nordost sells).

Wine has primary aromas (from the grape variety), secondary aromas (from what the winemaker did) and tertiary aromas from what happens with age. (Fourth are sometimes mentioned as aromas from the soil – this is dubious although we use the markers by large to describe certain aromas)

Wine that didn’t age WILL NOT have tertiary aromas. Bad wine WILL NOT get better with age. Ageing means investing, result is always risky.

Certain plots of land yield better raw material. You can’t get more than you get. Forcing vine to give more bunches will knock down quality – what people appreciate in grapes is the result of poverty, struggling and under nurturing (as opposed to what vine would probably prefer – to prosper wide and large). So you can’t produce more than you get.

Certain winemakers still show more talent in winemaking than others, not everything has been written down.

As I said in the beginning; after a while in this business, you start appreciating some of the same stuff the old farts appreciate; wine that can show primary, secondary and tertiary aromas and still have good structure (acidity), harmony (your mouth don’t get tired of it after a long evening of couple of bottles) and balance (not one single aroma jumps out and attracts attention, but it’s rather a wide variety of aromas of same intensity), it leaves a long lasting taste in mouth that doesn’t fall apart in first 30sec + it shows some of the terroir specificity... What can I tell you... It is very hard to make.

Once you try a wine that survived 50 years and is complex beyond what you can detect and compare it with plonk that dies after 1.2 – 2 years, you ask yourself; “the f...”

Of course there is also branding and fashion, but I didn’t want to touch those. I think this is enough to show it’s not a clear case like it is with some more technological stuff.
Very well written on the wine trade and art!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Not at all. It was the members of AH who were exhausting in this case. The guy ran never looking back. After literally repeating ten times he understands cable did nothing, people were still explaining that to him. I think his thread uncovered that the subject of cables went into a frustration with this lot. Which is expected, but even if so, not less sad.

The guy was funny, he had spirit, good sense of humor...
I didn't hate him. I just said he was exhausting. And he was. I have pm's from him to prove it, lol.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I didn't hate him. I just said he was exhausting. And he was. I have pm's from him to prove it, lol.
Wonder where he went? I don’t remember anybody going after him. I even breezed over this thread and it seemed like his interactions were good. Didn’t look at other thread activity though...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Wonder where he went? I don’t remember anybody going after him. I even breezed over this thread and it seemed like his interactions were good. Didn’t look at other thread activity though...
My memory is fuzzy, but I think he owned some fancy cables and started a thread about them. That never goes over very well here. He caught some flak over it and started this thread.

I wasn't sure what to make of him going on about my avatar. Almost had a passive aggressive feel, but then sometimes I take comments out of context. Hard to get "I'm kidding" across in text sometimes.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
My memory is fuzzy, but I think he owned some fancy cables and started a thread about them. That never goes over very well here. He caught some flak over it and started this thread.

I wasn't sure what to make of him going on about my avatar. Almost had a passive aggressive feel, but then sometimes I take comments out of context. Hard to get "I'm kidding" across in text sometimes.
Agreed. Communication via text is difficult. For example, you have no idea I’m typing this in my best Christopher Walken voice.
Btw, maybe your avatar he likey likey!
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
My memory is fuzzy,
exactly, so you rather shouldn't, still after three years you don't get the fancy cables were a tease, it's all still written here
Wonder where he went? I don’t remember anybody going after him. I even breezed over this thread and it seemed like his interactions were good. Didn’t look at other thread activity though...
I went, but he was just tired of spelling it out every time he says something about cables.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
exactly, so you rather shouldn't, still after three years you don't get the fancy cables were a tease, it's all still written here

I went, but he was just tired of spelling it out every time he says something about cables.
And the page spent on my avatar? The pm's?

He was exhausting.

*Edit: Note that I say "exhausting", not "jerk" or "idiot" or even that he's a "bad guy"...
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic Chief
I work with wine, if you want a professional answer it is not snake oil, at least not every 1k bottle.

You'd have to specify what you have in mind. Making a wine that can age well, and then not selling it, but having it occupy your cellar with your investment tied, it builds the price over time. Here it doesn't even matter do you like aged wine, no one is saying it is universally more appealing (although I’m not the one to go after universal categories since the only thing I’ve seen in wine business is that the more time you spend with them, the closer you get to what the old masters are praising and recommending). Some other things raise the price of wine.

Just a couple of info:

Wine does change with time.

Good wine from good grapes well stored will change for the better.

The more you know about wine making, the better your wine will age, not every wine is for aging (while OTOH if I cut and connect a right gauge of copper wire, I get what Nordost sells).

Wine has primary aromas (from the grape variety), secondary aromas (from what the winemaker did) and tertiary aromas from what happens with age. (Fourth are sometimes mentioned as aromas from the soil – this is dubious although we use the markers by large to describe certain aromas)

Wine that didn’t age WILL NOT have tertiary aromas. Bad wine WILL NOT get better with age. Ageing means investing, result is always risky.

Certain plots of land yield better raw material. You can’t get more than you get. Forcing vine to give more bunches will knock down quality – what people appreciate in grapes is the result of poverty, struggling and under nurturing (as opposed to what vine would probably prefer – to prosper wide and large). So you can’t produce more than you get.

Certain winemakers still show more talent in winemaking than others, not everything has been written down.

As I said in the beginning; after a while in this business, you start appreciating some of the same stuff the old farts appreciate; wine that can show primary, secondary and tertiary aromas and still have good structure (acidity), harmony (your mouth don’t get tired of it after a long evening of couple of bottles) and balance (not one single aroma jumps out and attracts attention, but it’s rather a wide variety of aromas of same intensity), it leaves a long lasting taste in mouth that doesn’t fall apart in first 30sec + it shows some of the terroir specificity... What can I tell you... It is very hard to make.

Once you try a wine that survived 50 years and is complex beyond what you can detect and compare it with plonk that dies after 1.2 – 2 years, you ask yourself; “the f...”

Of course there is also branding and fashion, but I didn’t want to touch those. I think this is enough to show it’s not a clear case like it is with some more technological stuff.
At the end of day, even a 50 year old wine that's valued at $1000 is still an alcoholic beverage, so what does it do that a $150 bottle of wine can't do?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
At the end of day, even a 50 year old wine that's valued at $1000 is still an alcoholic beverage, so what does it do that a $150 bottle of wine can't do?
It can make your nose stick just a little farther in the air ;)

Heck, my favorite wine is Yellow Tail. It just tastes good to me, and it's like ~$12 a bottle.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
At the end of day, even a 50 year old wine that's valued at $1000 is still an alcoholic beverage, so what does it do that a $150 bottle of wine can't do?
If wine is an alcohol fix for you, that's fine, but you shouldn't pull a verdict on it being snake oil. For equivalent's sake; imagine someone saying all our equipment is snake oil and overpriced because he can hear his song on a radio clock. If a radio clock is enough for you, it doesn't mean my equipment is snake oil. That's the only reason I tried to explain what goes into making some of the more expensive bottles. And I didn't even cover all. Imagine a yearly output of Yamaha going to trash because it was too much of a rainy year? So a good year also has to make up for some of those bad ones.

There's more! Is it your cellar? Did you build it or inherit it? Did you plant a new vineyard? First three years you can't make sh..., next three all you can make is sh... 6th is the first worth mentioning. Grape selection? How much did you have to throw away? And the counter is counting, counting...

It can make your nose stick just a little farther in the air ;)

Heck, my favorite wine is Yellow Tail. It just tastes good to me, and it's like ~$12 a bottle.
I know Yellow Tail. You paid too much.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Good wine, says the Chef, is not snake oil. Though paying 1K for it is a waste. Not disimilar from paying 1K for a 1m bi-wire cable. :p
I asked a friend in the whiskey world how much he would spend for a good bottle vs unicorn juice... his answer was ~$300 for good rye or bourbon, which he would drink rather than sit on and try to move for more money still. He shared a little of a very special bottle of Willett Rye he was given... 1 of 9 bottles from a special barrel in the best corner of the rick-house. No price given, but he probably could have sold it for at least $1000.

A good winery and a great wine from them, I'd spend $60-80. Tops. After that, diminishing returns. I have some 2012 Napa Cab bottles that retail at over $200... good? Yes, worth laying down for another 10 yrs? Probably not... drinks really well right now! ;)

I've gotten to taste rare wines from time to time. IMO, they aren't worth it... but can be delicious. But snake oil? No. Prententiosly stupid and/or stupidly pretentious? Yes. Just like my friend and some of his Unicorn Juice. Love it when he shares, though! ;)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Good wine, says the Chef, is not snake oil. Though paying 1K for it is a waste. Not disimilar from paying 1K for a 1m bi-wire cable. :p
I asked a friend in the whiskey world how much he would spend for a good bottle vs unicorn juice... his answer was ~$300 for good rye or bourbon, which he would drink rather than sit on and try to move for more money still. He shared a little of a very special bottle of Willett Rye he was given... 1 of 9 bottles from a special barrel in the best corner of the rick-house. No price given, but he probably could have sold it for at least $1000.

A good winery and a great wine from them, I'd spend $60-80. Tops. After that, diminishing returns. I have some 2012 Napa Cab bottles that retail at over $200... good? Yes, worth laying down for another 10 yrs? Probably not... drinks really well right now! ;)

I've gotten to taste rare wines from time to time. IMO, they aren't worth it... but can be delicious. But snake oil? No. Prententiosly stupid and/or stupidly pretentious? Yes. Just like my friend and some of his Unicorn Juice. Love it when he shares, though! ;)
Was hoping you'd comment as I expected something along these lines based on my chef friends....
 
HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts Across the Globe

There are tons of links about it, and they all read a lot like exotic cables. Change the label on the bottle or use a little food coloring and trained pros can't tell the difference.
Sounds more like the fakes need to justify there incompetence.

In the meat industry meat rots on a hook for 6 months then they cut off the rot and called it aged. People love eating it, supposed to taste bettero_O
Lmao
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts Across the Globe

There are tons of links about it, and they all read a lot like exotic cables. Change the label on the bottle or use a little food coloring and trained pros can't tell the difference.
That's complete BS and has nothing to do with whether very expensive wines are snake oil. Being able to fool someone doesn't say much about the product used in fooling, but the one who is fooled.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
Good wine, says the Chef, is not snake oil. Though paying 1K for it is a waste. Not disimilar from paying 1K for a 1m bi-wire cable. :p
I asked a friend in the whiskey world how much he would spend for a good bottle vs unicorn juice... his answer was ~$300 for good rye or bourbon, which he would drink rather than sit on and try to move for more money still. He shared a little of a very special bottle of Willett Rye he was given... 1 of 9 bottles from a special barrel in the best corner of the rick-house. No price given, but he probably could have sold it for at least $1000.

A good winery and a great wine from them, I'd spend $60-80. Tops. After that, diminishing returns. I have some 2012 Napa Cab bottles that retail at over $200... good? Yes, worth laying down for another 10 yrs? Probably not... drinks really well right now! ;)

I've gotten to taste rare wines from time to time. IMO, they aren't worth it... but can be delicious. But snake oil? No. Prententiosly stupid and/or stupidly pretentious? Yes. Just like my friend and some of his Unicorn Juice. Love it when he shares, though! ;)
Let's not quote chefs if you don't mind. Are those the guys that stack pieces of food one upon the other and then ask 600$ for diner for one? Please.

I see you think you found a good measure and I have nothing against that, but ones measure is a point of reference, it moves over time and from a person to person. I know some people who wouldn't give 60-80$ and would think that's snake oil.

Also, I'm not saying I'd pay 1k, but I'm saying fashion being out of the mix (I'm not interested in Miraval),what you need to do to make an extra bottle adds real world expenses. It is not dressing a cable into blue or red and then asking one extra thousand.

Sure, there are such products (golden flakes in Champagnes),but as I said a couple of times before, we're not talking about these.

Again, it is neither pretentiously stupid nor stupidly pretentious (nor "prententiosly" as you wrote, although your final judgement does have an aura of the same). It's the level of quality and the width of sensory info that can't be faked. It makes for small increments, sure, you may not care about it and nor does the radio-clock aficionado about Jim Salk, but radio-clock aficionaods don't make people who strive for perfection pretentiously stupid.

Caravaggio didn't have to paint this:
1565261428094.png


He could have done it like this, they both serve the same purpose:
1565261627321.png


But I guess he was just pretentiously stupid and stupidly pretentious.

Remind me again, which speakers did you buy? Why not these, you can hear your songs, so, by your words, yours must pretentiously stupid and stupidly pretentious:
1565262042821.png
 

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