music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
Argh!!!! I say. Arghhh! I just stumbled across some esoteric companys website, your final system, filled with so much snake oil it's hard to even start "getting a grip" on the balderdash and bs. The USB cable "test" / advertisement is the astroglide of snake oil:

http://yourfinalsystem.com/cable-interconnect-reviews/105-chinese-budget-usb-cable-vs-yfs-usb-2-cable#comment-wrapper

summary? an adventure in confirmation bias.

they either believe this in which they are fools. Or they are cynically playing to fools with money.

Sorry but had to blow off steam.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
Yeah, well first item would be to avoid USB connections entirely for your system! No USB connection means that the USB cable is a moot point.

USB is not ideal for audio.
 
S

Speedskater

Senior Audioholic
While not all USB cables are good cables, the differences between good and not good will NOT be:

produced bass that was noticeably more controlled and more present in the music mix. Highs were more extended and the mid response was nice and smooth.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
The first lines of the article clearly state, "we set out to prove"

Clearly, they were biased from the start!
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have had a number of snake oil articles sent to me by friends. Some just to get a reaction from me, some just because the sender had genuine questions. I have run out of fuel for railing against snake oil vendors this month. I have to await a new shipment of energy. Right now, my give-a-poop-factor about cables et al is in the negative range.

I suppose that's how these vendors continue to exist: folks who see them for what they are get tired and worn out calling them out. They just smile and keep on selling.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Warlord
I have to await a new shipment of energy. Right now, my give-a-poop-factor about cables et al is in the negative range.
Poor guy,
I think the phrase you are looking for is "I haven't a $hit to give!":)
 
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
I forgot to mention the disproportionate emphasis on "Chinese made" or "made in china" Not only outdated in terms of standards of production (any of those cats held an iPhone?) but given the over emphasis and lack of any scientific grounding in fact, I can't help but see it as implicitly racial/ethnic, intentional or not. In other words, yourlastsystem is implying on top of all the other gobeldygook that their cables are better in part because they are made by domestically by those of European descent. Don't get me wrong. I am all for supporting locally made stuff; Schiit for example is a good example of predominantly usa made stuff, which they sell as a good reason to buy their stuff because it supports domestic economies and labor. In other words, Schiit's marketing is aligned with substantive factors, much like the more technical aspects of the products themselves. In contrast, yourfinalsystem's marketing is based on nothing other irrational bias.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
In other words, Schiit's marketing is aligned with substantive factors, much like the more technical aspects of the products themselves. In contrast, yourfinalsystem's marketing is based on nothing other irrational bias.
let's face it, Schiit's marketing is wholly dependent on saying the word s-h-i-t in conversation while talking about audio gear. If they called the company Schmectenbergers (a good middle European name) nobody would ever buy the stuff. Its like a Beavis n Butthead episode everytime the word comes up
 
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
let's face it, Schiit's marketing is wholly dependent on saying the word s-h-i-t in conversation while talking about audio gear. If they called the company Schmectenbergers (a good middle European name) nobody would ever buy the stuff. Its like a Beavis n Butthead episode everytime the word comes up
Yeah, okay that too!
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
yourfinalsystem: "Your system sounds only as good as the weakest link in your audio chain. Why spend thousands on gear to turn around and use a 5 dollar USB cable from China?"

I often try to demonstrate that language analysis itself is sufficient to detect a problem in someone's reasoning even when you're not familiar with the subject matter. Let's imagine I don't know anything about audio at all. Like, I can't even turn it on and play a record.

Quoted paragraph is where "cheap" obviously gets interchanged with "weak". And this is all you need to see. Just ask why they did that and try to see if it really is so.

Since the metaphor refers to chain, let's stick with it and see where it gets us.

Imagine a chain where all links are made of gold and one is made of INOX. Now, this is where your cheapest link is your strongest link.

Now imagine a chain where all links are made of INOX, but they were bought from different vendors and some are cheaper. Vendors of more expensive links say; yes, but it is not just the link that we're selling, it is a way of life. It is "more than a link". So they got more money although all the links are holding just fine.

Conclusion: cheap ≠ weak

Last time I tried to make this point was in >eargiant's "Audio path..." thread. The guy was completely wrong (if something like that is even possible) and he is totally into Snake Oil BS and I don't claim I know better or more. It is just that:

In his thread this logical fallacy occurs: different = worth few thousand bucks, as well as this one: different = closer to ideal.

Second logical fallacy gets debunked in the introduction to Toole's Sound Reproduction so we can leave it.

The first one, If I was to jump to conclusion, would make Equaliser unit worth something like 80 000$.

This is how; slight differences you can achieve with different composite parts or architecture contribute to sound signature. In no way does "sound signature" make one unit closer to ideal and thus in no way should it be implied you're suppose to pay through your nose for it (you shouldn't even if you like the difference). An infinite number of sound signatures can be achieved with an Equaliser unit. And let's say for the sake of the conversation that 800 of them are very pleasing to ones ear.

If you truly believe that slight difference in sound between 1000$ Yamaha and 9000$ A.M.I.H (stands for "amp made in heaven", a joke) is worth 8000$, then 800 pleasing sound signatures must be worth 6 400 000$ right.

I hope you see where I'm going. Of course it's not worth it. This is a debating strategy that marketing uses heavily. It is similar to manufacturing consent. It is like when someone asks you would you prefer to go to cinema at eight or at ten, never actually asking would you like go at all.

Whenever someone shouts "It is overpriced!" the strategy is to redirect the conversation into whether you can hear something or not. But whether you can hear something is completely irrelevant. Go back to what the guy shouted. He didn't shout "I can't hear the difference!" He just said it was overpriced.

Conclusion: different ≠ few thousand $ more expensive

and

Conclusion 2: different ≠ closer to ideal
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
yourfinalsystem: "Your system sounds only as good as the weakest link in your audio chain. Why spend thousands on gear to turn around and use a 5 dollar USB cable from China?"

I often try to demonstrate that language analysis itself is sufficient to detect a problem in someone's reasoning even when you're not familiar with the subject matter. Let's imagine I don't know anything about audio at all. Like, I can't even turn it on and play a record.
killdozzer,
I love the intelligent and creative use of language. I am trapped within a single language, but I have learned to appreciate the complexity and variety one can achieve. I appreciated your breakdown of the cheap verses good argument, Once you've drawn the argument, it becomes obvious. But, I must admit I didn't see it on my own. Thanks for shining a light and creating a little illumination. In one of your previous posts you also threw out a bit of cultural or race bias associated with "cheap chinese". I also didn't see that influence before you described it but it most assuredly does exist in some quarters.

Keep up the good posts. Especially with the interesting and creative viewpoints. I enjoy reading them
 
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
Was it intentional that you downvoted the first two replies to your thread starter?
Hey thanks for catching that....my fat thumbs on small phone screen. me clumsy. fixed...sorry dudes. Meant to thumps up you!

Okay, I'm heading off now to levitate my speaker cables into the air using superconducting mag-lev cable supports, after which I need to set up the the de-gaussing system needed to negate the em effects of the mag-lev supports. You won't believe how levitating speaker wires off the ground imparts a tonal smoothing yet more precise imaging. Its like a veil has been lifted. night and day!

Of course ALL these supports need to be supported themselves by semi-fossilized teak wood from an endangered Peruvian rain forest, harvested by virgin Yamamamo tribe people -- because everyone knows that the Yamamamo harvesting technique imparts special properties into the wood grain which really helps open up the sound. Virgins help impart a tonal purity to the second order harmonics. No cheap Chinese supports for me!

Though I do find Chinese Virgins make the best green pigment for my bespoke CD edge painting instrument -- I heard about the amazing differences in sound produced by coloring the edge of CDs with a sharpie. I could not believe a cheap marker would perform as well as a custom made pigment applied with a the feather from the extinct Dodo bird. Boy was I right. The $15,000 I spent on milling the machine out of solid basalt, taxidermied Dodo specimen and Chinese virgin pigment was immediately worth it. Those poorly mastered CDs from the mid-1990s suddenly sounded amazing!

then I will be evacuating the room of "air" so that the sound can be transmitted with the utmost purity and zero interaction....

oh...wait....
 
Last edited:
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
yourfinalsystem: "Your system sounds only as good as the weakest link in your audio chain. Why spend thousands on gear to turn around and use a 5 dollar USB cable from China?"

I often try to demonstrate that language analysis itself is sufficient to detect a problem in someone's reasoning even when you're not familiar with the subject matter. Let's imagine I don't know anything about audio at all. Like, I can't even turn it on and play a record.

Quoted paragraph is where "cheap" obviously gets interchanged with "weak". And this is all you need to see. Just ask why they did that and try to see if it really is so.

Since the metaphor refers to chain, let's stick with it and see where it gets us.

Imagine a chain where all links are made of gold and one is made of INOX. Now, this is where your cheapest link is your strongest link.

Now imagine a chain where all links are made of INOX, but they were bought from different vendors and some are cheaper. Vendors of more expensive links say; yes, but it is not just the link that we're selling, it is a way of life. It is "more than a link". So they got more money although all the links are holding just fine.

Conclusion: cheap ≠ weak

Last time I tried to make this point was in >eargiant's "Audio path..." thread. The guy was completely wrong (if something like that is even possible) and he is totally into Snake Oil BS and I don't claim I know better or more. It is just that:

In his thread this logical fallacy occurs: different = worth few thousand bucks, as well as this one: different = closer to ideal.

Second logical fallacy gets debunked in the introduction to Toole's Sound Reproduction so we can leave it.

The first one, If I was to jump to conclusion, would make Equaliser unit worth something like 80 000$.

This is how; slight differences you can achieve with different composite parts or architecture contribute to sound signature. In no way does "sound signature" make one unit closer to ideal and thus in no way should it be implied you're suppose to pay through your nose for it (you shouldn't even if you like the difference). An infinite number of sound signatures can be achieved with an Equaliser unit. And let's say for the sake of the conversation that 800 of them are very pleasing to ones ear.

If you truly believe that slight difference in sound between 1000$ Yamaha and 9000$ A.M.I.H (stands for "amp made in heaven", a joke) is worth 8000$, then 800 pleasing sound signatures must be worth 6 400 000$ right.

I hope you see where I'm going. Of course it's not worth it. This is a debating strategy that marketing uses heavily. It is similar to manufacturing consent. It is like when someone asks you would you prefer to go to cinema at eight or at ten, never actually asking would you like go at all.

Whenever someone shouts "It is overpriced!" the strategy is to redirect the conversation into whether you can hear something or not. But whether you can hear something is completely irrelevant. Go back to what the guy shouted. He didn't shout "I can't hear the difference!" He just said it was overpriced.

Conclusion: different ≠ few thousand $ more expensive

and

Conclusion 2: different ≠ closer to ideal

Awesome analysis...and I appreciate the use and reference to Chomsky !
 
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
But you know man, when I use this Aryre Remote control for my CD player, which is milled out of a solid block of aluminum and has to have 4 hex bolts removed to change the battery, I really think the tracks change with more "authority" and greater "openness" than when I use the cheap Korean Logitech universal remote.

(PS: I was given the Ayre...I never would have paid that much for a cd player....but it has the goofiest remote I have seen..it really is milled out of aluminum, requires a hex wrench to change the battery (I guess one should only use special AAA batteries with it....), weights half a pound but has tiny buttons and bad ergonomics and you have to hit a non-illuminated button to illuminate the other 4 buttons that illuminate....Oh, and now it doesn't work. the IR diode burned out or maybe a connection failed when I changed the battery last, cause when you open the case the change the battery the entire PCB board is exposed and the battery cage just flops out....Hey, wait a minute, I just realized the problem! The battery cage/holder thingy seems to be made out of cheap plastic. and the wires that connect it to the PCB board seem to just be normal copper wires and don't even have any markings for directionality! Well, live and learn. Next time I will know its worth it to spend much more on a CD player with a remote with a battery cage made out of a better material, like carbon fiber and connected with pure silver audio quest battery leads (which use a tiny watch battery to impart a charge to the dialectic!).
 
Last edited:
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Field Marshall
(PS: I was given the Ayre...
I want your friends for my friends!

You totally misunderstood the vanishing of the illumination. It was dimmed not to affect the sound stage and 3D imaging.
 
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
I want your friends for my friends!

You totally misunderstood the vanishing of the illumination. It was dimmed not to affect the sound stage and 3D imaging.
Of course! Taming unwanted photonic emissions from remotes is especially important with Mars in ascendence on the easter sky and Jupiter waxing towards the winter solstice!


The Ayre is from downsizing audiophile parent, actually, along with a Sunfire Amp and Vacuum Tube pre-amp -- the latter of which is on its way out I am afraid (electrical issues not fixed by recapping....potential fire hazard...fried the output stage of a DAC it was connected to when a volume pot broke). Too bad...it sounds great. Great phono stage. The Ayre is pretty great actually. overbuilt but sounds great. Fun with high-res material, like DVD-A, even in two channel. Highs a little rolled off....too much "smoothing" in the presence zone I suspect for "hi-fi" sound. maybe my middle aged ears through.
 

newsletter
  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top