Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
I think what he's trying to say it that the longer one has known about a given scam without having ever revealed it to anyone, the greater one's credibility. :D

Kal Rubinson has put forth that argument in a thread on this subject in another forum too. It didn't go over too well.
The reason why Simaudio didn't publish it is because people who cannot afford one will call it a scam, or whatever. Meanwhile reviewers knew (ask Kal), dealers were told (ask me), and customers knew.. At least mine did. It took Marshall 5 years to finally figure it out what was known all along. It is a very small industry. I know the players involved extremely well. I know from 10 year old conversations that Denon Japan serviced Simaudio products. They had the schematics. So if some pseudo reviewer who wants to embarrass a company for his 10 seconds of internet fame calls various manufactures up, it's easiest to leave it at the handshake agreement and move on. Hence, no one is getting "sued". All involved liked their wounds and moved on.

People don't want to believe it sounds better when their dream product is a 4520. (by the way, I own 3, 4520's and I LOVE them). IMHO, the prepro section of the 4520 sounds MUCH better than items I sell for 5X. But some others think the 5X costing products sounds better. Not because it is in their head, but because they really prefer the SQ. I don't argue, I sell what people want. To each their own. I diverge...

Forgetting the fact that I loved the SQ of the CP-8 (and to MY ears it is "Better"), there are wealthy people who think spending >$10K on a prepro isn't a big deal. They may really like the jewelry too. People spend $10K on watches that tell the time just like my Seiko for $200. Some think the guy is a FOOL for paying $10K for a watch too. But are they really a fool because they can afford one while the guy resorts to calling him names? It's talked about often in audio forums.

The specs I pay attention to are SQ, VQ, user friendliness, price, support, and features. Only fools (IMHO at least) only look at specs. I know many many EE's (I'm one too) in this field. Spec's are used to sell product. MANY times their are interactions that worsen a spec (while another improves). No minds will be changed on the topic. People who "know" they understand everything cannot be changed.

Final point that will go ignored: Simaudio didn't charge $18K. I certainly didn't charge $18K. But let's leave it at $18K to get people lathered up. All of the listed design differences won't matter to anyone who wants to believe it is a "scam". By far, DEALERS (if they got $18K) made much more on the CP-8.
 
Marshall_Guthrie

Marshall_Guthrie

Audioholics Videographer Extraordinaire
Hence, no one is getting "sued". All involved liked their wounds and moved on.
As the Audyssey quote of "we are considering legal action" shows, they haven't moved on, nor should they. Just because they've may or may not have decided that it is not financially advantageous to pursue legal action doesn't make it right. And, I'm still not sure what you're trying to assert. Are you saying that there was collaboration by Denon and Simaudio and that they lied about it, or that there wasn't, but they are okay with it?

Final point that will go ignored: Simaudio didn't charge $18K. I certainly didn't charge $18K. But let's leave it at $18K to get people lathered up. All of the listed design differences won't matter to anyone who wants to believe it is a "scam". By far, DEALERS (if they got $18K) made much more on the CP-8.
And Denon didn't charge $1199, but what number would you have liked me to use? The published price is the published price, and unless we can find a regularly available and published lower price, we have to use MSRP to be fair.

You've mentioned several times that you are both a Simaudio and Denon dealer. What is your store's name and location?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I think what he's trying to say it that the longer one has known about a given scam without having ever revealed it to anyone, the greater one's credibility. :D

Kal Rubinson has put forth that argument in a thread on this subject in another forum too. It didn't go over too well.
As with most of Kals responses more and more respect from the AV community is lost. It just shows how detrimental Paper publications like his are to the hobby.
 
J

j_Galligan

Audiophyte
Shocked

I'm shocked by all the people that would call into question a product's value strictly because it was clearly a fraudulent attempt to resell an existing product at a ridiculous markup. First off, may I remind you that Simaudio is a premium brand that is no longer required to demonstrate it's audio superiority. It's greatness should simply be accepted as a matter of fact. Plus, they did replace the transformer with a toroidal type which easily raises the value of any audio device by $8-9,000. Second, It's a Simaudio.

As to the legal matters, just because a company charges licensing fees to use their logo in any and all marketing materials doesn't mean you have to pay for it. It's called 'sharing' and we all learned about it in grade school. Everyone get's way too uptight when it comes to "intellectual property" and "patent rights." If everyone just shared their goodies then companies like Simaudio wouldn't have to steal them. Really, I think Audyssey, Dolby and DTS are to blame. They're the reason why Simaudio had to act criminally. Simaudio is the real victim here.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Priceless :D.
As to the legal matters, just because a company charges licensing fees to use their logo in any and all marketing materials doesn't mean you have to pay for it. It's called 'sharing' and we all learned about it in grade school. Everyone get's way too uptight when it comes to "intellectual property" and "patent rights." If everyone just shared their goodies then companies like Simaudio wouldn't have to steal them. Really, I think Audyssey, Dolby and DTS are to blame. They're the reason why Simaudio had to act criminally. Simaudio is the real victim here.
Exactly!
Look at HD. HD USB cables, specifically. I will never go back to those crappy SD USB cables. Thanks to everyone at HD for sharing this awesome technology with the world.
 
B

bogrod

Junior Audioholic
Forgetting the fact that I loved the SQ of the CP-8 (and to MY ears it is "Better"), there are wealthy people who think spending >$10K on a prepro isn't a big deal. They may really like the jewelry too. People spend $10K on watches that tell the time just like my Seiko for $200. Some think the guy is a FOOL for paying $10K for a watch too. But are they really a fool because they can afford one while the guy resorts to calling him names? It's talked about often in audio forums.
Is it conceivable that some (I'm really talking about self-made) wealthy people get that way by not being foolish with their money?

Warren Buffet is a great example.

I have no problem with someone buying jewelery, even the audio kind. I think a great heaping teaspoon of the "high end" is dubious in terms of differences in real (i.e. not subjective) audible differences. That's the part of it that I think rattles more sabers than being jealous of others with money. However, if a rich person wants to believe the subjective nonsense and makes himself believe that he is buying something "better", so be it. It doesn't make it reality. Again, I am speaking to real improvements in sound (and video) quality verus something cosmetic or simple $$ bragging rights. Still, it's funny when the guts of a $1k machine make its way into an $18k machine, because the differences in sound (or video) quality are likely nonexistant. Gotta love placebo....
 
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A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
Is it conceivable that some (I'm really talking about self-made) wealthy people get that way by not being foolish with their money?

Warren Buffet is a great example.

I have no problem with someone buying jewelery, even the audio kind. I think a great heaping teaspoon of the "high end" is dubious in terms of differences in real (i.e. not subjective) audible differences. That's the part of it that I think rattles more sabers than being jealous of others with money. However, if a rich person wants to believe the subjective nonsense and makes himself believe that he is buying something "better", so be it. It doesn't make it reality. Again, I am speaking to real improvements in sound (and video) quality verus something cosmetic or simple $$ bragging rights. Still, it's funny when the guts of a $1k machine make its way into an $18k machine, because the differences in sound (or video) quality are likely nonexistant. Gotta love ....
Without question, the laws of diminishing return are in play here. That would include better DAC's versus cheaper DAC's, a cheap power supply versus a more expensive version, differential DAC's versus single ended, discretely built operational amplifiers versus semiconductors (and while we are at it) 16 bit 48K DAC's versus the best 24-192 DAC's. I could go on for another hour: coupling capacitors (or lack their of using DC coupling), shielding, layout, volume control methodology, etc. Each an every "tweak" mayresult in extremely small sonic difference. Added all together there can be a nice improvement so long as some other part wasn't botched.

Simaudio or any other boutique brand when designed by themselves will indeed have an inferior DSP engine as compared to Denon or Pioneer or Onkyo. I'm talking about Denon's incredible GUI, it's packed features, reliability, user friendliness, etc. At my homes and electronics, I pretty much used D&M products (but not their amps because I prefer Parasound Halo). For my ear and budget, I simply LOVE the Denon and Marantz products. But there are products that take it to the next level sonically. Unfortunately, more often than not the low volume brands are buggy. People do buy inferior DSP engine products to get superior analog sections. The price has nothing to do with it. They put up with the hassles and lack of features to get "better" sound. So to assume some people want to pay more for show is true. I've tried talking people with terrible rooms out of spending big $'s. But logic will tell you more people want a bug free product that costs LESS. But after hearing the difference, they wrestle with spending more to get the sonic benefit. So they spend more because they (unfortunately) hear the difference. So don't assume it is the placebo. It could not be farther from the truth in the vast majority of my customers.

Denon's engine is basically the same for all of the Denon and Marantz products. That design is amortized over a lot of products and is the reason why they can accomplish so much at an attractive price. If Sim or Krell tried to re-design the wheel, it would cost millions. It is also why D&M buys their room correction, video up conversion, etc.

On another note, I personally think the Marantz 8801 is a SPECTACULAR product. IMHO, (in Simaudio words) the Marantz 8801 "smokes" the flagship Onkyo. The 8801 has a lot of "audiophile tweaks". "Smokes" in audiophile terminology is you hear a nice level of improvement. It would be like cooking a steak on a gas grill versus a quality charcoal grill. People are interested in that little extra. Continuing with the grill analogy, I don't like cooking on a gas grill (I use a Traeger grill to be more accurate) and I paid $1400 for that grill. I buy fresh garlic while others use garlic power. To the taste buds, that difference will be extremely small. But the best meals combine the 30 very small differences to get something worthy. It's NEVER night and day. Same drill in audio. For my next door neighbor, he may attach a price to the sonic improvement with the 8801 at $50. While others would pay thousands. It depends on the level of passion and (much) MORE importantly the thickness of the wallet.;)

So are you saying all those people who post on the AVS forum who bought the $3600 retail Marantz 8801 prepro are getting screwed? After all, it is extremely similar to the Denon 4520 for $1100 less? For an example, when they discuss that thery 'hear a difference" over the Onkyo that they just sold and now love the Marantz, is it all in their head like you alluded to? Were they all hoodwinked? Shouldn't they just have bought a Denon X4000 and used the preouts? Where is the outrage? Marantz is charging 4X more money for an 8801 versus the X4000. There are a ton of similarities (and "only" 20 sonic tweaks). Don't bother listening to it. Have Gene measure it. (Using Marshall's suggestion) Gene will tell you if it sounds better only if it measures better. :rolleyes: Too funny!

I propose that at least part of the Simaudio "outrage" is because of a hidden jealousy that people refuse to admit. Here we are talking about a 5 year old story and a site that seemingly wants to smear a company. You have not all heard about it because it's WAY outside of your budget. The people who are commenting on the story never heard the product and cannot afford one yet they "know" is is simply a $1K Denon. That's the irony and it seems people that are closed minded cannot bring themselves to admit it. But this site sells advertising and (controversy sells) even when it is 5 years old.

That said, I'm wasting my bandwidth because I am not going to change anyone's mind. I'm off to the beach to have another beer in Mexico.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I know many many EE's (I'm one too) in this field. Spec's are used to sell product. MANY times their are interactions that worsen a spec (while another improves). No minds will be changed on the topic. People who "know" they understand everything cannot be changed.
Sir, this is the best post from you I have seen so far in this thread except this ridiculous part. You said you're "one too", and you said only fools looked at specs, ...are used to sell product blablabla withini the same post...? Come on, the if the navigation system that promises to land you somewhere on the moon but has an accuracy of +/- 1% in the advertised spec, would you go on it?

Now I know you have not said that, but just on another note, I find it hard to believe EE's specialized in audio electronics and communications would simply go by their ears to voice their products. So that means whoever voice it would work with the design group to tune it until the voice guys are happy? If that's what that means, I will definitely not buy such products and yes I am a fool according to your claim because I tend to buy products that are tested and measured (with precision methodology and instruments) to verify it meets all design specs/criteria.

I know often enough we are led to believe that's the former is the case with certain products, but I have not read or anyone who actually design their products have ever said so publicly, not even Nelson Pass or John Curl. I think I can understand most people in this hobby tend to believe in going by the ears and trust the "voice/tune" by ears talks but I would have thought that EE's (real ones) and others in the know do believe in proven engineering and science principles; and then target the best specs they can practically achieved within a given budget. I do admit in the end I would go by ears too, but really just in the end as a final test to satisfy myself of the ones I have auditioned, I have the opportunity to pick the one that I think suits (subjectively) my needs best and that I can afford it. Thanks for the rest of your post, just not the specs/fool part..
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You've mentioned several times that you are both a Simaudio and Denon dealer. What is your store's name and location?
And allegedly an EE, so may I add: registerd/licensed (or degreed?) where, and specialized/or practised in what branch?
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
So are you saying all those people who post on the AVS forum who bought the $3600 retail Marantz 8801 prepro are getting screwed?
As a dealer you should know, don't nobody pay retail.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
1) discretely built operational amplifiers versus semiconductors


2) So are you saying all those people who post on the AVS forum who bought the $3600 retail Marantz 8801 prepro are getting screwed? After all, it is extremely similar to the Denon 4520 for $1100 less? For an example, when they discuss that thery 'hear a difference" over the Onkyo that they just sold and now love the Marantz, is it all in their head like you alluded to?
1) Are you trying to say that a discrete op-amp will out-perform an IC??? An EE should know better!

2) YUP
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
As a dealer you should know, don't nobody pay retail.
Thanks for helping make my point. :) No one was paying $18K for the Simaudio either. As I said early on, there was a stack price and it was SIGNIFICANTLY less. Then take off any deals that a customer receives. Putting it another way, Simaudio didn't charge $18K for their prepro. I don't think it is a secret as to the ballpark total margin. Simaudio designed several boards from scratch amortized over MAYBE 200 units.

As Lexicon, Theta, B&K, Proceed, ATI, Bel Canto and others learned back in the early 2000 range, it's easy to lose money on a prepro no matter how much you charge. But hey, if you want to sensationalize things, call it $18 Grand. It happens often. When people's stereo break, they OLNY quote retail. This "$6,000 product should not have broke". Never mind they paid $4800. They quote retail to enhance their point. Just as Marshall tried to do with his 5 year old news.
 
Marshall_Guthrie

Marshall_Guthrie

Audioholics Videographer Extraordinaire
Ironically, I did not ignore your previous point, but you ignored my response.

AV_Nut said:
Final point that will go ignored: Simaudio didn't charge $18K. I certainly didn't charge $18K. But let's leave it at $18K to get people lathered up. All of the listed design differences won't matter to anyone who wants to believe it is a "scam". By far, DEALERS (if they got $18K) made much more on the CP-8.

And Denon didn't charge $1199, but what number would you have liked me to use? The published price is the published price, and unless we can find a regularly available and published lower price, we have to use MSRP to be fair.

You've mentioned several times that you are both a Simaudio and Denon dealer. What is your store's name and location?
 
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A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
And allegedly an EE, so may I add: registerd/licensed (or degreed?) where, and specialized/or practised in what branch?
My engineering focus was with a non-volatile NVRAM. More specifically related to semiconductors. I then was a sales engineer specing in semiconductors into designs for LSI logic, Motorola semiconductor and a few others for several years. Later, I followed my passion and the rest is history. So in a previous life, I am an engineer and I then called on engineers. I love to talk shop with my suppliers. I've do the same with speaker designers. I've had dinner with dozens of designers in this specific field. What you called "dumb" would be completely understood by just about everyone who designs amplifier, DAC's, etc. I've been in the home of many of the designers and owners. I have vacationed with the director of engineering of scanspeak and I could go on for a long time. What you read about, I talk over during a factory visit or dinner.

To my final point on specs. There are interactions that go on within designs. Let's take a Class D chip amp. If you widen-up the bandwidth, the SN ratio goes down and the THD goes up. To the novice, that might be concerning. But the reality is you cannot hear .1 THD let alone .01 or .001. So why on earth should I care? But Halcro to use a marketing example needs to prove they made the best amp. They went after some incredibly low THD so show why they were the "best". WOW! .00093%!:rolleyes: See Halcro dm88 Reference monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

OF COURSE spec's matter but (more often than not) only if the design sucks. There are some specs that will give an inkle of something that is "better". But an "inferior" sounding designed product like a tube amp may be preferred by some (but not to my ears). There are several other trade-offs. So designers have learned what to listen for and marketing tells them what specs to hit to "prove" it is better. If you disagree. Fine. But that's the reality.

Spec's lead people in the wrong direction all the time. Hence, that is what I meant why I only care about these specs: SQ, VQ, ease of use, price, reliability, looks, etc. Most specs are incredibly over engineered. That was what I meant. Hopefully we can agree, if not you certainly am not going to change the good artists (a.k.a. engineers) who "get it". The shtick with "objective" websites that sell advertising like this one is to prove there is science behind it. For me at least, I listen only. I never ever have looked at one spec other than watts per channel. I care more about the methodology to garner my guess in what something sounds like (DC coupled vs. AC, mosfets versus bipolar devices, quality of output devices, feedback loop etc).

What I have learned is there is no shortage of opinions on this topic. The most vocal people (especially on forums) seem to listen the least yet are convinced they are smarter than the guys who design it. I'm not speaking of you. I'm speaking of a grouping as a whole. I've repeatedly heard things that absolutely make no sense to my engineering brain. I've learned to stop arguing. Others have not. Yea. I own an ABX box too. I let me customers use it.

Anyways. I've wasted too much time on the topic already. It's been a fun topic even if it was 5 years old. :) When is AUDIOHOLICS going to print an article that Simaudio and Belcanto used an ATI DSP engine? Or that Legacy audio and Simaudio used an EAD platform over 10 years ago? You know that they never advertised this. Should anyone care? Each^^ did change the analog section.
 
A

AV_Nut

Junior Audioholic
1) Are you trying to say that a discrete op-amp will out-perform an IC??? An EE should know better!
Then go educate Marantz about how the discrete built HDAM's operational amplifiers sound worse than the semiconductors that they attach to the Denon's. According to you, then the Denon 4520 preouts must sound better than the Marantz AV 8801. I'll let Kevin Zorrow know to stop using them in all of their reference products. Too funny!:D


This is a perfect example as to why people need to stop reading "spec's". Thank you for making my point even stonger. :)
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
As a dealer you should know, don't nobody pay retail.
Not sensible folks anyway. But there is Crutchfield and OneCall.
The person buying Simaudio might be just the right "fish" to do it ;)

Some products like Oppo players are not discounted.

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Spec's lead people in the wrong direction all the time.
I'm not an engineer BTW. I changed major after 2 YR of pre-engineering. :D

I think many of us agree that most specs are "inaudible" among components (DAC, Amp, Preamp, Processor, Player).

For example, THD 1% vs. 0.001%, SNR -90dB vs. -125dB, Crosstalk -70dB vs. -110dB, etc.

Many of us cannot hear the difference in real life.

And that's why many of us believe that we cannot hear the difference among good components in level-matched direct mode unless the signal has been deliberately altered by Room Correction, DSP, EQ.

How could Simaudio improve the analog section when we cannot tell the audible difference with SNR, Crosstalk, THD, FR?

Especially when we know that speakers THD are > 1% and FR variations in speakers are usually > +/- 2dB.

I am not really sure what the point is here. :D

Are you thinking that electrical components that have worse FR, THD, Crosstalk, SNR, can actually SOUND BETTER ?

I'm not an engineer, but doesn't that go against every engineering philosophy? :D

But fact is, some people believe the Simaudio subjectively sounds better. How they choose to spend their money is their own business. The rest of us can laugh all we want, but those people couldn't care less about what we think. :)

Thank you, Simaudio, for this very interesting product. ;)

I think Simaudio was on the right track, though. Take a great Denon (well, a little dated) and turn it into their own pre-pro.

Perhaps Simaudio will come out with the CP-9 that uses a Denon X4000 w/Audyssey XT32, dual Sub EQ, 4K & 3D video, Airplay, HDMI output for Zone 2, etc. Should be a great pre-pro. :D
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Not sensible folks anyway. But there is Crutchfield and OneCall.
The person buying Simaudio might be just the right "fish" to do it ;)

Some products like Oppo players are not discounted.

- Rich
Onecall and Crutchfield will give small discounts, but the biggest discounts usually come from B&M dealers or installers. Products like Oppo have tightly controlled distribution channels and they're sought after so discounts aren't really their thing. However, Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, and any other brand of speakers or electronics that have extensive installer and dealer networks have the greatest opportunity for big price slashes. I definitely didn't pay retail for the 8801 I bought and the price I paid was significantly less than what Onecall quoted me (thanks again adk).
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for the background information about your engineering. Where do you work now as a dealer?

My engineering focus was with a non-volatile NVRAM. More specifically related to semiconductors. I then was a sales engineer specing in semiconductors into designs for LSI logic, Motorola semiconductor and a few others for several years. Later, I followed my passion and the rest is history. So in a previous life, I am an engineer and I then called on engineers. I love to talk shop with my suppliers. I've do the same with speaker designers. I've had dinner with dozens of designers in this specific field. What you called "dumb" would be completely understood by just about everyone who designs amplifier, DAC's, etc. I've been in the home of many of the designers and owners. I have vacationed with the director of engineering of scanspeak and I could go on for a long time. What you read about, I talk over during a factory visit or dinner.

To my final point on specs. There are interactions that go on within designs. Let's take a Class D chip amp. If you widen-up the bandwidth, the SN ratio goes down and the THD goes up. To the novice, that might be concerning. But the reality is you cannot hear .1 THD let alone .01 or .001. So why on earth should I care? But Halcro to use a marketing example needs to prove they made the best amp. They went after some incredibly low THD so show why they were the "best". WOW! .00093%!:rolleyes: See Halcro dm88 Reference monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

OF COURSE spec's matter but (more often than not) only if the design sucks. There are some specs that will give an inkle of something that is "better". But an "inferior" sounding designed product like a tube amp may be preferred by some (but not to my ears). There are several other trade-offs. So designers have learned what to listen for and marketing tells them what specs to hit to "prove" it is better. If you disagree. Fine. But that's the reality.

Spec's lead people in the wrong direction all the time. Hence, that is what I meant why I only care about these specs: SQ, VQ, ease of use, price, reliability, looks, etc. Most specs are incredibly over engineered. That was what I meant. Hopefully we can agree, if not you certainly am not going to change the good artists (a.k.a. engineers) who "get it". The shtick with "objective" websites that sell advertising like this one is to prove there is science behind it. For me at least, I listen only. I never ever have looked at one spec other than watts per channel. I care more about the methodology to garner my guess in what something sounds like (DC coupled vs. AC, mosfets versus bipolar devices, quality of output devices, feedback loop etc).

What I have learned is there is no shortage of opinions on this topic. The most vocal people (especially on forums) seem to listen the least yet are convinced they are smarter than the guys who design it. I'm not speaking of you. I'm speaking of a grouping as a whole. I've repeatedly heard things that absolutely make no sense to my engineering brain. I've learned to stop arguing. Others have not. Yea. I own an ABX box too. I let me customers use it.

Anyways. I've wasted too much time on the topic already. It's been a fun topic even if it was 5 years old. :) When is AUDIOHOLICS going to print an article that Simaudio and Belcanto used an ATI DSP engine? Or that Legacy audio and Simaudio used an EAD platform over 10 years ago? You know that they never advertised this. Should anyone care? Each^^ did change the analog section.
 
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