Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[RichB]

Onecall and Crutchfield will give small discounts, but the biggest discounts usually come from B&M dealers or installers. Products like Oppo have tightly controlled distribution channels and they're sought after so discounts aren't really their thing. However, Marantz, Denon, Onkyo, and any other brand of speakers or electronics that have extensive installer and dealer networks have the greatest opportunity for big price slashes. I definitely didn't pay retail for the 8801 I bought and the price I paid was significantly less than what Onecall quoted me (thanks again adk).

Good to know.
I did not pay close to retail for my AV8801.

ADK please PM me, as I am always looking for a good dealer.

- Rich

 

[winning]

CP-8 Owner - Not Happy

I am a proud CP-8 owner and this article was, at first, disturbing to me. I am now considering selling my Moon CP-8 and going back to a McIntosh MX121 which has all of the most current bells and whistles. I will most certainly keep my MC-8 amplifier, but I will have to compare the CP-8 and MX121 very meticulously before making a final decision.

It kills me that this pre/pro tops off at only HDMI 1.3a, there is no Audyssey room correction and lacks Dolby/DTS lossless codecs. It's inevitable that a pre/pro will become obsolete quickly, but something of this caliber should, at this price point, be as current or more current than the competition. Wishing for a CP-9 sometime soon!

Thanks for this in depth article and the needed education!

 

[jinjuku]

Without question, the laws of diminishing return are in play here. That would include better DAC's versus cheaper DAC's, a cheap power supply versus a more expensive version, differential DAC's versus single ended, discretely built operational amplifiers versus semiconductors (and while we are at it) 16 bit 48K DAC's versus the best 24-192 DAC's. I could go on for another hour: coupling capacitors (or lack their of using DC coupling), shielding, layout, volume control methodology, etc. Each an every "tweak" mayresult in extremely small sonic difference. Added all together there can be a nice improvement so long as some other part wasn't botched.

And on the pre-amp level side of things that keeps extending the curve out to a $18K pre-pro which is 90% Denon and 10% Simaudio (the analog out and case)?
You can even get Behringer SRC 2496 with a 3rd party Analog out section. The premium certainly isn't 1700%. But I would be willing to bet the analog output section has just as much care and attention to detail taken as SimAudio

Denon's engine is basically the same for all of the Denon and Marantz products. That design is amortized over a lot of products and is the reason why they can accomplish so much at an attractive price. If Sim or Krell tried to re-design the wheel, it would cost millions. It is also why D&M buys their room correction, video up conversion, etc.

Ok so what is the point?

So are you saying all those people who post on the AVS forum who bought the $3600 retail Marantz 8801 prepro are getting screwed? After all, it is extremely similar to the Denon 4520 for $1100 less?

I think the fact that the 8801 has XLR outputs would be a legitimate reason for the pricing difference alone. Most people are non-comital far as SQ when both have had ears on the 8801 and the 4520.

I propose that at least part of the Simaudio "outrage" is because of a hidden jealousy that people refuse to admit. Here we are talking about a 5 year old story and a site that seemingly wants to smear a company. You have not all heard about it because it's WAY outside of your budget. The people who are commenting on the story never heard the product and cannot afford one yet they "know" is is simply a $1K Denon. That's the irony and it seems people that are closed minded cannot bring themselves to admit it. But this site sells advertising and (controversy sells) even when it is 5 years old.

If they are haters does that make you an industry apologist? Spend whatever you want to spend. All I know is I've had two people over to listen to my 2.0 setup, that have conservatively $30K into their setups, come away with their jaw dropped to the floor.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

I am a proud CP-8 owner and this article was, at first, disturbing to me. I am now considering selling my Moon CP-8 and going back to a McIntosh MX121 which has all of the most current bells and whistles. I will most certainly keep my MC-8 amplifier, but I will have to compare the CP-8 and MX121 very meticulously before making a final decision.

It kills me that this pre/pro tops off at only HDMI 1.3a, there is no Audyssey room correction and lacks Dolby/DTS lossless codecs. It's inevitable that a pre/pro will become obsolete quickly, but something of this caliber should, at this price point, be as current or more current than the competition. Wishing for a CP-9 sometime soon!

Thanks for this in depth article and the needed education!

Hi Winning. I'm glad to see that you found your way to this thread. As you may know, I've been trying to connect with an actual CP-8 owner. Can you confirm that you were not made aware of the Denon underpinnings for the CP-8? Where and when did you purchase your CP-8? Feel free to contact me via pm if you would prefer not disclose that info in a public thread.

 

[gene]

Then go educate Marantz about how the discrete built HDAM's operational amplifiers sound worse than the semiconductors that they attach to the Denon's. According to you, then the Denon 4520 preouts must sound better than the Marantz AV 8801. I'll let Kevin Zorrow know to stop using them in all of their reference products. Too funny!


This is a perfect example as to why people need to stop reading "spec's". Thank you for making my point even stonger.

I can tell you without question that the preamp out section of the Denon AVP processor is SUPERIOR in EVERY way to a Marantz PM-11S3. I'm not overly impressed with the latest HDAM topology Marantz is using. It has higher distortion and less output drive than the older version. As far as preamps go, I've never measured a cleaner output section than what is in the Denon AVP processor. Their receiver preouts are pretty excellent too and the new Marantz AV receivers are based on a similar design since both companies share the same platforms.

 

[AV_Nut]

I can tell you without question that the preamp out section of the Denon AVP processor is SUPERIOR in EVERY way to a Marantz PM-11S3. I'm not overly impressed with the latest HDAM topology Marantz is using. It has higher distortion and less output drive than the older version. As far as preamps go, I've never measured a cleaner output section than what is in the Denon AVP processor. Their receiver preouts are pretty excellent too and the new Marantz AV receivers are based on a similar design since both companies share the same platforms.

Then you enjoy your 4520 preouts. As I said earlier, I currently have 3, 4520's. I LOVE them as a receiver. Not too shabbly as preouts either. It positively sounds better than the $7500 Denon AVP. I've taken in about 10 on trade for 8801's. 100% of the purchasers hear the benefits. So if the Denon AVP "measures better", again, I don't care. I also thought the old Marantz 8003 sounded better than the AVP. We had a shootout with 16 set of ears listening. All but one set of ears agreed (5 year old data just like the CP-8). So the 8003 was 1/3 the price and people liked it a lot more (disclaimer: no room correction was engaged).

The D&M designers ears agree with my ears. I'll take the HDAM's, thank you. They will continue to design on their premium products with HDAM's. Thanks for another example why specs don't really matter.

I'm not overly impressed with the latest HDAM topology Marantz is using. It has higher distortion and less output drive than the older version.

If memory serves me, Kevin Z explained that the prepro's HDAM's were different on the AV7005 (prepro) versus the SR7005 (receiver). I'd have to look at some old emails. But I do know they have had some iterations. I'll have to ask them when I have a chance. I will say I am a 8801 bigot. It's a tough one to beat!

 

[AV_Nut]

And on the pre-amp level side of things that keeps extending the curve out to a $18K pre-pro which is 90% Denon and 10% Simaudio (the analog out and case)?

Really? 90-10% Denon? How are you so wise on this topic?

 

[AV_Nut]

I'm not an engineer BTW. I changed major after 2 YR of pre-engineering.

I think many of us agree that most specs are "inaudible" among components (DAC, Amp, Preamp, Processor, Player).

For example, THD 1% vs. 0.001%, SNR -90dB vs. -125dB, Crosstalk -70dB vs. -110dB, etc.

Many of us cannot hear the difference in real life.

And that's why many of us believe that we cannot hear the difference among good components in level-matched direct mode unless the signal has been deliberately altered by Room Correction, DSP, EQ.

How could Simaudio improve the analog section when we cannot tell the audible difference with SNR, Crosstalk, THD, FR?

Especially when we know that speakers THD are > 1% and FR variations in speakers are usually > +/- 2dB.

I am not really sure what the point is here.

Are you thinking that electrical components that have worse FR, THD, Crosstalk, SNR, can actually SOUND BETTER ?

I'm not an engineer, but doesn't that go against every engineering philosophy?

But fact is, some people believe the Simaudio subjectively sounds better. How they choose to spend their money is their own business. The rest of us can laugh all we want, but those people couldn't care less about what we think.

Thank you, Simaudio, for this very interesting product.

I think Simaudio was on the right track, though. Take a great Denon (well, a little dated) and turn it into their own pre-pro.

Perhaps Simaudio will come out with the CP-9 that uses a Denon X4000 w/Audyssey XT32, dual Sub EQ, 4K & 3D video, Airplay, HDMI output for Zone 2, etc. Should be a great pre-pro.

I've heard a lot of situations where I could hear zero difference between say an Onkyo (which I am not a fan of) versus a Marantz. Yet a significant amount of other rooms I heard "large" differences. The room dictates a lot of any possible audible differences (as well as the speaker load). So for that guy who has never heard the difference in his room, it will be impossible to convince otherwise and visa versa. So goes the age-old argument. The simple solution is to bring in a couple of different models and take it back if you don't hear a difference. I would never want someone to buy something they were not convinced that they are buying a superior product (to their ear).

I sell tube amps, I hate them. Soft bottom end, they lack "air", near zero control for many speakers yet people love them. Go figure. There is a group of people that will spend hours on these forums attempting to prove to someone else that they are all knowing. That "ALL AMPS SOUND THE SAME, all preamps sound the same, there is no speaker break in". I'm still learning so I certainly don't have all of the answers.

 

[gene]

Then you enjoy your 4520 preouts. As I said earlier, I currently have 3, 4520's. I LOVE them as a receiver. Not too shabbly as preouts either. It positively sounds better than the $7500 Denon AVP. I've taken in about 10 on trade for 8801's. 100% of the purchasers hear the benefits. So if the Denon AVP "measures better", again, I don't care. I also thought the old Marantz 8003 sounded better than the AVP. We had a shootout with 16 set of ears listening. All but one set of ears agreed (5 year old data just like the CP-8). So the 8003 was 1/3 the price and people liked it a lot more (disclaimer: no room correction was engaged).

The D&M designers ears agree with my ears. I'll take the HDAM's, thank you. They will continue to design on their premium products with HDAM's. Thanks for another example why specs don't really matter.



If memory serves me, Kevin Z explained that the prepro's HDAM's were different on the AV7005 (prepro) versus the SR7005 (receiver). I'd have to look at some old emails. But I do know they have had some iterations. I'll have to ask them when I have a chance. I will say I am a 8801 bigot. It's a tough one to beat!

You definitely speak like a dealer and not someone with a shred of technical background. I don't go by specs, I go by what I measure. I also physically test the units in my reference system for comparative purposes. The 4520 Receiver preamp outputs are NOT equivalent to the AVP Processor. The AVP Processor has a discrete Class A output drive that is fully differential from input to output. I suspect if the AVP was still a current model you would be liking it a lot more b/c you could stock and sell it.

The newer generation Marantz receivers are Denons with some upgraded components in the analog sections. My reference to HDAM was for their top of the line Integrated Amp. HDAM2 is superior to HDAM 3 in this case and even Marantz admits it. They can no longer source the components that made up the HDAM circuits of the PM-11S2 which is why the 11S3 doesn't measure as well as the 11S2 with respect to the preamp outputs.

 

[AV_Nut]

You definitely speak like a dealer and not someone with a shred of technical background. I don't go by specs, I go by what I measure. I also physically test the units in my reference system for comparative purposes. The 4520 Receiver preamp outputs are NOT equivalent to the AVP Processor. The AVP Processor has a discrete Class A output drive that is fully differential from input to output. I suspect if the AVP was still a current model you would be liking it a lot more b/c you could stock and sell it.

The newer generation Marantz receivers are Denons with some upgraded components in the analog sections. My reference to HDAM was for their top of the line Integrated Amp. HDAM2 is superior to HDAM 3 in this case and even Marantz admits it. They can no longer source the components that made up the HDAM circuits of the PM-11S2 which is why the 11S3 doesn't measure as well as the 11S2 with respect to the preamp outputs.

You can think what you want about my technical ability and my motivations. You have yet proved my point to another level. You MEASURE and I listen. Gene. Set down the scope probe.


I have sent off an 8801 to every AVP customer with a garantee that I take it back if they don't hear it sounds better. They ALL have stuck. That is because the 8801 factually sounds better. Meanwhile, you can pontificate why it is superior. You are leading people down the wrong path with your approach. My advice: go listen between the two and get ready to eat crow!

Oh. Ask the folks at D&M which sounds better. Again, my ears agree with theirs.

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks for the background information about your engineering. Where do you work now as a dealer?

One more time

 

[PENG]

I have sent off an 8801 to every AVP customer with a garantee that I take it back if they don't hear it sounds better. They ALL have stuck. That is because the 8801 factually sounds better. Meanwhile, you can pontificate why it is superior. You are leading people down the wrong path with your approach. My advice: go listen between the two and get ready to eat crow!

Oh. Ask the folks at D&M which sounds better. Again, my ears agree with theirs.

I think if is mostly in your head as those guys at Marantz might have previously planted seeds in it. In recent years I went from the 3805 to 4308, AV7005, then AV8801 (for now) and did notice an overall improvement in HT sound each time. In pure direct, no I cannot say the 8801 sounds better than any of the Denons. In my current set ups, including two separae two channel systems, the prepro, preamps and amps are clearly not the bottom neck, but the source media and the speakers are but I do feel the speakers are pretty close to the point of diminishing return, at least in my rooms. If I had bought my AV8801 from you I wouldn't ask for a 4520 trade in either, unless you pay shipping both ways, then I probably would.. I think the trouble of shipping a heavy box back and forth is at least one of the possible reasons why people stuck with what they bought regardless of your seemingly generous offer.

 

[RichB]

Actually, I think the BDP-105 sounds better when plugged directly into my amp, but it is just too limited;
I like having a volume knob

- Rich

 

[fuzz092888]

Actually, I think the BDP-105 sounds better when plugged directly into my amp, but it is just too limited;
I like having a volume knob

- Rich

You haven't tried the volume control on the Oppo?

 

[PENG]

Actually, I think the BDP-105 sounds better when plugged directly into my amp, but it is just too limited;
I like having a volume knob

- Rich

I still have not tried that one but I have the 105's RCA connected to the 8801 and the XLR to the Cambridge audio (fully differential) and subjectively I do feel the Cambridge sounds better. Again that is highly subjective and likely heavily biased because the stupid specs and higher price tell me it is supposed to sound better. Likewise, I have no doubt the AVP will sound superior, to think the other way is just "nut"..

 

[PENG]

Actually, I think the BDP-105 sounds better when plugged directly into my amp, but it is just too limited;
I like having a volume knob

- Rich

Talking about amp, Sim's monoblock looks really impressive with the 2X1.3 kVA transformer, I mean two for a monoblock!! I wonder if they are made from two Halo JCs.

 

[ellisr63]

I'd say there is enough there to keep the lawyers busy, but I'm not sure if anything will ever come of it. On one hand, you have Audyssey. Though there name is everywhere, they are a small company. It costs money to sue for trademark infringement, and every dollar that they spend is one less dollar they can't spend on R&D and paying their employees. Even though they'd probably win, it's unlikely that whatever damages, if any, they recouped from Simaudio would be worth it.

On the other hand, you have Denon, and though they are a bigger company with more money in the bank, and more lawyers on retainer, it's the same position: cost vs. benefit. Even if they won, they likely spend more on lawyers than they'd ever recoup from Simaudio.

...and so goes it, which is why you note they are not the first, nor the last.

Now, for companies whose entire business is built off the control of their licensing, HDMI for instance, they may take a more principled stand and seek legal action even if it's not a directly lucrative move, in order to protect their brand and IP.

Doesn't the loser of the case have to pay all the Lawyer fees in a lawsuit? If so Denon would recoup all their fees at a minimum.

 

[jinjuku]

Really? 90-10% Denon? How are you so wise on this topic?

Sure, slapping on an analog out section is 50%

 

[gene]

You can think what you want about my technical ability and my motivations. You have yet proved my point to another level. You MEASURE and I listen. Gene. Set down the scope probe.


I have sent off an 8801 to every AVP customer with a garantee that I take it back if they don't hear it sounds better. They ALL have stuck. That is because the 8801 factually sounds better. Meanwhile, you can pontificate why it is superior. You are leading people down the wrong path with your approach. My advice: go listen between the two and get ready to eat crow!

Oh. Ask the folks at D&M which sounds better. Again, my ears agree with theirs.

I know more people and Denon/Marantz than you probably realize like the engineers actually designing the stuff. The 8801 is a fine processor but it's not meant to be a direct replacement for the AVP, especially in the analog section.

I can't say too much about what I know of Denon/Marantz future roadmaps but you can rest assured there is an AVP replacement coming down the pipe. I'm sure when it does come out you will be singing a different tune as well

 

[monkish54]

Set down the scope probe.

Don't you dare, Gene.

I think I speak for most of us on this forum, there is plenty of room for objective measurements, science, reality, and honesty in this industry.

I read Audioholics for the facts and, as so eloquently stated earlier, Stereophile for the LOLZ. Take a probe to every piece of equipment you see, Gene. When I get my BS in EE (working on an AS in electronics now), I might even join you.