Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[AV_Nut]

Both Denon and Simaudio have confirmed, contrary to you assertion, that they did not coordinate in any way. Denon did not sell their products directly to Simaudio, they were bought through the retail channel and developed into the CP-8 without Denon's knowledge and permission at the time, and against the wishes of Denon and Audyssey when they were released to market. Perhaps that should have been more clear in the article.

Let's just say that sometimes politics dictate a response from all parties involved. My proof is no one will be sued.

I gave you a 10 year old "scoop" that the Lexicon RT-10 and 20 were Marantz 8400 and 9200. Go call Marantz and ask them if they gave permission. If they said "we didn't know", will you believe them too?

So, there are one of two scenarios at work here.

1) Your customers were told they were buying a Denon. The Denon name was used to polish the tarnished reputation of high-end pre/pro without Denon's permission. Or,

2) The customer was not told they were buying a Denon, and lead to believe that all the engineering efforts were Simaudio's.

Neither one of those is something that anyone should be proud of.

Nope. Option 3. My customers knew that they were buying a Denon ENGINE. Marshall, a DSP engine doesn't sound like anything. The analog section has a lot to do with the sound quality. I did not think I would have to spell it out for a reviewer. You continually avoid wanting to understand that Denon didn't make the preamp section, the power supply, the signal path, the operational amplifiers, the deferentially balanced circuits etc. It's 5 year old info, at one point I knew everything that was changed inside of the analog section. I don't remember what (if any) they did to the digital input section. So yes, Simaudio made SOUND IMPROVEMENTS.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Let's just say that sometimes politics dictate a response from all parties involved. My proof is no one will be sued.

I've already addressed this in my very first post in this thread: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/87650-simaudio-moon-cp-8-av-processor-denon-receiver-sim-clothing.html#post998300

Just because neither Denon nor Audyssey is chosing to explore the legality in court doesn't mean that they aren't aggrieved. They've just done the cost/benefit and know that the lawyers would cost more than they would possibly receive in damages.

I gave you a 10 year old "scoop" that the Lexicon RT-10 and 20 were Marantz 8400 and 9200. Go call Marantz and ask them if they gave permission. If they said "we didn't know", will you believe them too?

So, you are implying that both Simaudio and Denon are lying when they both say that Simaudio developed and distributed the CP-8 without any permission from Denon?

Nope. Option 3. My customers knew that they were buying a Denon ENGINE. Marshall, a DSP engine doesn't sound like anything. The analog section has a lot to do with the sound quality. I did not think I would have to spell it out for a reviewer. You continually avoid wanting to understand that Denon didn't make the preamp section, the power supply, the signal path, the operational amplifiers, the deferentially balanced circuits etc. It's 5 year old info, at one point I knew everything that was changed inside of the analog section. I don't remember what (if any) they did to the digital input section. So yes, Simaudio made SOUND IMPROVEMENTS.

Aside from the fact that this assertion has nothing to do with the 2 points I made that you are responding to, please quote me where I asserted there would b no sonic difference. I'll wait here...

...in fact, let me help you out. Here's a quote from the article:

While it would be remiss not to do so, there’s no easy way to address the relative cost and resultant value of the Denon and Simaudio products. It is not in dispute that Simaudio made significant changes introducing a new case and power supply, as well as removing and modifying the amplifiers and resulting output stage, but the “brains,” “guts,” and “engine” is still Denon. To what extent is the 15x price increase reflected in the performance? Without a review unit to test, it’s hard to say just how much deviation from the original Denon design exists to account for the variance in price between the two products.

If you have a CP-8, please PM me and I'll work with Gene to make arrangement to test it for review. Until then, I'll repeat myself. When you say:

SQ differs in the analog section, reducing jitter in the digital section, and room correction differences. IMHO, the CP-8 accomplished this goal. It was an amazing sounding prepro for someone who wants the very best.

I ask:

In what way did it sound better? Lower distortion? More (or less) linear response?

What is the audible difference that allows you to proclaim, without qualification, that the Simaudio sounds better than the pre-amp section of Denon AVR that you referenced to the point that you were amazed?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think the analog preamp section will sound any differently at all.

It is the digital processing that changes the sound, not the analog preamp section, which is equivalent to Pure Direct mode.

So I seriously doubt that Simaudio improved the sound.

I seriously doubt that the $18K Simaudio sounds better than the $1.3K Denon X4000 because the X4000 has Audyssey XT32 + dual Sub EQ and the Simaudio does NOT. If anything, I think the X4000 sounds BETTER than the Simaudio.

I've compared the analog preamp sections of $20-30K pieces from Krell & ML to AVR in Direct mode and they sound exactly the same to me. That is why I utterly and unequivocally believe that only the DIGITAL PROCESSING changes the sound.

I should qualify by saying "when LEVEL MATCHED" and bias removed.

Because when levels are not matched and bias prevails, the more expensive gear will somehow sound better.

 

[andy_c]

Regarding exotic audiophile analog circuitry, there just isn't much scope for it in an AV pre-pro. Exotic audiophile preamps often use strange volume control arrangements such as motorized pots, transformer volume controls (TVCs), light-dependent resistors (LDRs), switched-ladder networks using relays as the switch elements, and the like. Analog volume control ICs made by semiconductor companies are considered "mid-fi" by the audiophile crowd. But a good pre-pro must be able to adjust volume in accurate 0.5 dB steps over a very large range, while providing +/-12 dB trims for each channel too. This is not done digitally, and cannot be practically achieved using any of the previously-mentioned audiophile solutions either, so it mandates the use of analog volume control ICs, thus making for a non-audiophile-approved solution from the get-go.

Of course, audiophiles typically won't know that this is the case, so if they're told that exotic discrete circuitry is used in the analog section, they'll hear better sound despite the non-audiophile-approved volume control technique used.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That's why the world needs Audioholics - to keep people honest.

...

Yes, but lacking enforcement power.
After all, without it, why have any morals or laws on the books?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I just love their line
“recognized as one of the few who have successfully transcended beyond science

Wonder what is beyond it though, faith? Hope? Imagination?

 

[mtrycrafts]

As a Harman fan-boy, it pains me to say it, but yes, and Audioholics broke that story too: Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside | Audioholics

It's a good thing that audioholics is around. Imagine if it were just Stereophile and publications like them letting the high-end companies claim whatever they want.

...

But they do get away with it... for a while for some of them. The marketplace is just too big for Gene to try to expose them. He needs a lot more help to make a dent in their behavior.

 

[jeffreynoah]

P. T. Barnum

In the 1980s, I asked an audio retailer if he expected to sell many of the $18,000 (an enormous amount of money at the time) audio systems on display in his store. His reply:
"We have already sold quite a few, as expected. Do you remember P. T. Barnum claiming that 'there's a sucker born every minute? Well, every 32 minutes, there's a rich one."

 

[andy_c]

I just love their line
“recognized as one of the few who have successfully transcended beyond science

Wonder what is beyond it though, faith? Hope? Imagination?

Oh man. I had missed that. Thanks for posting, it was hilarious! If I were to venture a guess, I'd suppose that what lies beyond science begins with b-u-l-l and ends with s-h-i-t.

 

[Chu Gai]

Gene, if I read it right, the article indicates Simaudio will no longer be marketing products such as the modified Denon in the future. You touched upon issues such as licensing and royalties to which I'll add that I rather doubt you can gut a product, add some mods, stick it in a case and not have to undergo regulatory compliance FCC testing if it's to be sold in the US.

Is perhaps the reason they've stopped doing this because they received notification to cease and desist from some of the companies like Denon, Dolby, Audyssey, etc. is there any for us to find out?

 

[cpp]

What makes one wonder, if a company has done this with one device, what have they done with their other products.

 

[slipperybidness]

So yes, Simaudio made SOUND IMPROVEMENTS.

With a lack of objective 3rd party measurements, this is pure subjective opinion.

 

[ellisr63]

What makes one wonder, if a company has done this with one device, what have they done with their other products.

Or.... Maybe they weren't selling enough and thought they could make some quick cash to stay in business.

 

[AV_Nut]

So, you are implying that both Simaudio and Denon are lying when they both say that Simaudio developed and distributed the CP-8 without any permission from Denon?

Sherlock Marshall. Go see who serviced Simaudio products INSIDE Japan back in the mid 2000 era. Meaning, who had every single schematic for servicing their product including the CP-8. You may not quickly get that answer. But when if you do, expect to get some egg on your face. I'll leave it at that.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Oh man. I had missed that. Thanks for posting, it was hilarious! If I were to venture a guess, I'd suppose that what lies beyond science begins with b-u-l-l and ends with s-h-i-t.

Or, come to think of it, perhaps a pseudo reality? Alternate reality?

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Sherlock Marshall. Go see who serviced Simaudio products INSIDE Japan back in the mid 2000 era. Meaning, who had every single schematic for servicing their product including the CP-8. You may not quickly get that answer. But when if you do, expect to get some egg on your face. I'll leave it at that.

And, what would that show?

And you can just call me Marshall, if you'd like.

 

[andy_c]

And, what would that show?

I think what he's trying to say it that the longer one has known about a given scam without having ever revealed it to anyone, the greater one's credibility.

Kal Rubinson has put forth that argument in a thread on this subject in another forum too. It didn't go over too well.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

If I were in Denon's position, I would use it as advertising. "Our products are so good that the competition can't beat it so they have to steal it"

Not a similar story but one company using a mishap to their advantage was Marantz where a stereo receiver of theirs was destroyed in a fire but miraculously the owner found it, plugged it in and it worked like before the fire. Marantz took this and made an ad " We didn't start the fire "

Denon should defiantly follow suit. " It plays like a $18000 receiver but will only cost you $1300 "

 

[Darkwing_duck]

I briefly looked at the Simaudio web site. Their motto:

Proudly designed and manufactured in Canada​

It should be reworded to say:

Proudly <strike>designed and</strike> re-manufactured in Canada
​

When the lawyers get through with this case, the new motto will be:

<strike>Proudly designed and manufactured in Canada
</strike>A wholly owned subsidiary of D&M Holdings, Inc.
​

LOL niceeeeee

 

[Darkwing_duck]

I always knew Denon made the best darn AVRs in the world.

Everyone just needs to buy the Denon X4000 and be done with it.

Audyssey XT32 + Dual Sub EQ + Dynamic EQ. Say no more.

Next thing you know, Mark Levinson or Lexicon will buy the X4000 and turn it into a $10K pre-pro.

I own the X4000 and I love it. It's sublime.