Salk Ascend better the Big ones

[TLS Guy]

I guess because I’ve seen so much crap built out of MDF. It’s saw dust glued together. I’m partial to real wood. Just my preference. Ever seen MDF get wet?

As far as I know a speaker is not designed to sub as a boat. I think most know not to get speakers wet. Actually MDF is probably the best material we have to make a speaker out of. It is cheap and so it would be widely used. However you don't have to make crap with it. MDF has close to optimal density and good internal damping properties. There is no ideal material, but MDF tends to hit more spots of the ideal then pretty much anything else.

 

[TLS Guy]

You can't judge the usable low-end extension from the frequency response plot alone. The limiting factor is the Fs of the driver, in this case is 530 Hz. You need to cross considerably higher than one octave above the free air resonance of the tweeter. The exact frequency will depend on the crossover slope. Seas lists the operating range of the diamond as 1800 Hz to oblivion.

I would bet that tweeter has to be 24 db down by 500 Hz. There are a few drivers you can drive below Fs. One such is the well regarded ATC mid range dome, which can be driven down to 350 Hz. Billy Woodman told me it is very low Q and can be driven down below Fs.

 

[ematthews]

As far as I know a speaker is not designed to sub as a boat. I think most know not to get speakers wet. Actually MDF is probably the best material we have to make a speaker out of. It is cheap and so it would be widely used. However you don't have to make crap with it. MDF has close to optimal density and good internal damping properties. There is no ideal material, but MDF tends to hit more spots of the ideal then pretty much anything else.

Fair enough. Guess I always saw MDF as cheap furniture and didn't see the positives about it in audio builds.

 

[everettT]

Fair enough. Guess I always saw MDF as cheap furniture and didn't see the positives about it in audio builds.

Are you thinking particle board instead if MDF? The only 2 issues I have with it are weight and mess when cutting. Otherwise works well. If you use paint as your finish, prep is a little tedious.

 

[ematthews]

Are you thinking particle board instead if MDF? The only 2 issues I have with it are weight and mess when cutting. Otherwise works well. If you use paint as your finish, prep is a little tedious.

Yep. Actually I was. Got that wrong.

 

[John Galt]

Fair enough. Guess I always saw MDF as cheap furniture and didn't see the positives about it in audio builds.

I don’t like MDF or particle board for many applications, but it is great for some (both of my workbenches have MDF tops...smooth, strong, inexpensive). I much prefer solid wood or plywood, and the solid bamboo cabinets that Ascend uses were a significant factor in my purchase decision.

I’ve been let down by MDF and particle board on too many occasions and resist any high end purchases that use those materials. Try removing screws and re-tightening a few times in MDF or particle board (even if you obsessively try to re-use the original threads) and you’ll see what I mean. It turns to dust easily and just won’t hold up like solid wood or plywood will. For speakers this shouldn’t be an issue for most, but it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I touch or look at my solid bamboo Ascend cabinets.

 

[JerryLove]

The goals of the two are different.

A Harmon Kardon cares about sound quality; but they are looking for manufacturing costs, shipping costs, sourcing etc. Some of them are actually very high-quality for the costs involved. Its one reason you don't see boutique builders at the low-end... indeed: some custom builders have used stock cabinets as a base (I have a pair of reworked infinities...).

Large manufacturers actually have a number of costs that smaller builders don't. The same machinery that lowers cost in volume has a fixed overhead to pay off (this is especially a problem in lower-volume products). The corporation itself have quite a bit more administrative overhead; not to mention things like advertizing budgets.

But the biggest difference is generally the structure of sale. It's not uncommon for retail products to double in cost for each hand they pass through. Focus might make a speaker cheaper than a similar Salk, but it sells it to a store, which doubles the cost. There may also be a middle man, again doubling the cost. Think about how many speakers your local high-end botique shops sells in a day... now figure what they need to make on that.

This is also why you don't see, for example, Salks in your local botique store. Salk can't cut costs enough for the store to compete with direct-order for price.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don’t like MDF or particle board for many applications, but it is great for some (both of my workbenches have MDF tops...smooth, strong, inexpensive). I much prefer solid wood or plywood, and the solid bamboo cabinets that Ascend uses were a significant factor in my purchase decision.

I’ve been let down by MDF and particle board on too many occasions and resist any high end purchases that use those materials. Try removing screws and re-tightening a few times in MDF or particle board (even if you obsessively try to re-use the original threads) and you’ll see what I mean. It turns to dust easily and just won’t hold up like solid wood or plywood will. For speakers this shouldn’t be an issue for most, but it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling every time I touch or look at my solid bamboo Ascend cabinets.

The bamboo composite cabinets are very nice indeed. So are well built mdf/hdf cabinets. Hopefully you're not constantly removing/replacing drivers or terminals etc (and threaded inserts could always be used). Solid wood is often a construction/durability issue in speaker building, aside from cost, that's why its not used. For my diy builds I do prefer birch ply but that's due to a combination of weight/sawdust for the most part; plywood would also have a durability advantage under rough handling....

 

[JerryLove]

I have a pair of speakers made of cast marble.

I have another pair that's primarily MDF bonded to concrete with a vasoelastic membrane and re-enforced with steel tubing.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have a pair of speakers made of cast marble.

I have another pair that's primarily MDF bonded to concrete with a vasoelastic membrane and re-enforced with steel tubing.

Sounds like a bigger pain to build

 

[Verdinut]

As far as I know a speaker is not designed to sub as a boat. I think most know not to get speakers wet. Actually MDF is probably the best material we have to make a speaker out of. It is cheap and so it would be widely used. However you don't have to make crap with it. MDF has close to optimal density and good internal damping properties. There is no ideal material, but MDF tends to hit more spots of the ideal then pretty much anything else.

IMO, MDF is an excellent material for building full range speaker enclosures. In the case of subwoofer boxes, I prefer Baltic birch plywood for two reasons, 1, it is a much more solid and rigid material and 2, it has a higher resonance frequency than MDF and that higher resonance is out of the typical subwoofer frequencies.

 

[John Galt]

The bamboo composite cabinets are very nice indeed. So are well built mdf/hdf cabinets. Hopefully you're not constantly removing/replacing drivers or terminals etc (and threaded inserts could always be used). Solid wood is often a construction/durability issue in speaker building, aside from cost, that's why its not used. For my diy builds I do prefer birch ply but that's due to a combination of weight/sawdust for the most part; plywood would also have a durability advantage under rough handling....

I’ve resisted the urge to remove even a single screw from my Ascend speakers...but if it ever becomes necessary I’m glad that I have solid ‘wood’ cabinets that won’t disintegrate into sawdust in the event that screws need to be removed and replaced.

I’m very careful to gently turn screws counter-clockwise until I find the original threads (plastic/metal/wood) and have still had more problems with MDF and the like than I care to recall...lots of toothpicks and glue used to reform the screw holes.

 

[lovinthehd]

I’ve resisted the urge to remove even a single screw from my Ascend speakers...but if it ever becomes necessary I’m glad that I have solid ‘wood’ cabinets that won’t disintegrate into sawdust in the event that screws need to be removed and replaced.

I’m very careful to gently turn screws counter-clockwise until I find the original threads (plastic/metal/wood) and have still had more problems with MDF and the like than I care to recall...lots of toothpicks and glue used to reform the screw holes.

I've taken my drivers in/out of my Sierra1s (for installation of new driver/crossovers a coupla times). It's not solid wood, tho....probably a goodly amount of epoxy with the bamboo

 

[John Galt]

I've taken my drivers in/out of my Sierra1s (for installation of new driver/crossovers a coupla times). It's not solid wood, tho....probably a goodly amount of epoxy with the bamboo

The Sierra acoustics websites states “vertically laminated solid bamboo cabinet” for the Sierra-1.

 

[lovinthehd]

The Sierra acoustics websites states “vertically laminated solid bamboo cabinet” for the Sierra-1.

I always took that to just mean no other fibrous filler material aside from the adhesives....

 

[John Galt]

I always took that to just mean no other fibrous filler material aside from the adhesives....

From what Dave F. Has said they’re made out of vertically laminated ‘solid’ bamboo plywood sheets like this https://www.calibamboo.com/product-plywood-3ply-3-4-inch-vertical-carbonized-8012001700.html

No sawdust held together with glue.

 

[lovinthehd]

From what Dave F. Has said they’re made out of vertically laminated ‘solid’ bamboo plywood sheets like this https://www.calibamboo.com/product-plywood-3ply-3-4-inch-vertical-carbonized-8012001700.html

No sawdust held together with glue.

I didn't say sawdust, but like plywood it is material held together with adhesives. Think it's fairly small strips of bamboo from what I read like here https://www.bambooimport.com/en/how-is-bamboo-lumber-made

 

[Pogre]

Rate better by whom?

Some forum members? All forum members? Everyone else not on the forum?

It seems most people still own brands made by the big companies - Revel, B&W, KEF, RBH, Paradigm, PSB, Klipsch, DefTech, GoldenEar, etc.

In terms of pricing, because of the big markups, a lot of times you can get big discounts on the big brand speakers.

But there are a lot of factors that go into buying speakers.

If it has exactly what you are looking for, then it's the right speaker for you, regardless of the forum ratings or whether it is from a small or big company.

Just look on eBay, Audiogon, Craigslist, and other classifieds for used speakers that people once loved, but now want to get rid of. You'll see every brand of speakers (big and small company brands) listed at one point or another.

Maybe a better way for him to frame it would be along the lines of "You never see a negative review or comment about Salk and Ascend" when compared to the big boys.

To that I'd say volume of customers would factor in also. The more units you sell, the greater chance you're gonna find someone who has some kind of problem with it.

 

[Mikado463]

Every guy must have his own journey.

You read about other's people's journeys, but you've got to have you own.

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time and money.

After you buy 14 pairs of speakers, you get the idea.

If I were a billionaire, my house would be so big and I would have one room each for RBH 8T (Gene's speakers), Focal Grand Utopia, KEF Muon, Revel Salon2, B&W 800D3, Dynaudio, etc.

better hurry up and grab a pair of Salon2's, they have been discontinued ......

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

better hurry up and grab a pair of Salon2's, they have been discontinued ......

Been there. Done it.

I’ve already owned a pair (in my signature as ”Speakers I’ve owned”). Sold them after a couple of years.