Salk Ascend better the Big ones

[ichigo]

ID speakers fall behind significantly compared to retail in terms of decor--cabinet design in particular. Most ID speakers are basically straight monkey coffins, whereas you get all manor of curved cabinets and flush baffles on retail brands that can spend that kind of money on wood molding/bending equipment.

Also it looks like retail companies are developing some unique waveguides to better mate the output of their tweeters and mids/woofers, so I think some retail brands may have an advantage in terms of directivity.

 

[little wing]

I like them very much. What I'm really looking forward to is the Horizon center which is arriving on Wednesday.
Contact Dave at Ascend, or check the Ascend forums, lots of info there.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

I'm sure you will like the horizon center. I can tell you from experience, it is an absolutely awesome Center Channel. No dialogue issues whatsoever and fantastic sound. I think it's one of the best centers out there, and I've heard a few.

 

[snakeeyes]

ID speakers fall behind significantly compared to retail in terms of decor--cabinet design in particular. Most ID speakers are basically straight monkey coffins, whereas you get all manor of curved cabinets and flush baffles on retail brands that can spend that kind of money on wood molding/bending equipment.

Also it looks like retail companies are developing some unique waveguides to better mate the output of their tweeters and mids/woofers, so I think some retail brands may have an advantage in terms of directivity.

Doubles as a monkey coffin! Sweet!

 

[Beave]

ID speakers fall behind significantly compared to retail in terms of decor--cabinet design in particular. Most ID speakers are basically straight monkey coffins, whereas you get all manor of curved cabinets and flush baffles on retail brands that can spend that kind of money on wood molding/bending equipment.

Also it looks like retail companies are developing some unique waveguides to better mate the output of their tweeters and mids/woofers, so I think some retail brands may have an advantage in terms of directivity.

Part of that is because many speaker manufacturers understand that when they have their models lined up at a dealer showroom alongside many competitors' models, it's the looks that can make or break a sale.

Speaker manufacturers often spend a lot of effort (and money) trying to make their speakers look good.

 

[ichigo]

Part of that is because many speaker manufacturers understand that when they have their models lined up at a dealer showroom alongside many competitors' models, it's the looks that can make or break a sale.

Speaker manufacturers often spend a lot of effort (and money) trying to make their speakers look good.

I think it also helps that some audiophiles obsess over the audibility "diffraction" so that also helps big box companies drive sales with an additional selling point.

 

[everettT]

ID speakers fall behind significantly compared to retail in terms of decor--cabinet design in particular. Most ID speakers are basically straight monkey coffins, whereas you get all manor of curved cabinets and flush baffles on retail brands that can spend that kind of money on wood molding/bending equipment.

Also it looks like retail companies are developing some unique waveguides to better mate the output of their tweeters and mids/woofers, so I think some retail brands may have an advantage in terms of directivity.

I'm not sure which ID companies your speaking of, but the ones I've dealt with are just the opposite of your opinion. Salk and Funk are two prime examples.

I think you might be surprised to learn that some of the high end retail manufactures have known DYIers design some of their products. Wilson Audio is an example.

 

[ematthews]

Ascend uses custom Bamboo cabinets. I guess it could be a Monkey coffin. But I’d take Bamboo over MDF any day.

 

[highfigh]

Ascend uses custom Bamboo cabinets. I guess it could be a Monkey coffin. But I’d take Bamboo over MDF any day.

Why? It's certainly not as dense, although it's stiff. Is it the chemicals in the MDF? They do make it without formaldehyde.

 

[ematthews]

I guess because I’ve seen so much crap built out of MDF. It’s saw dust glued together. I’m partial to real wood. Just my preference. Ever seen MDF get wet?

 

[sfdoddsy]

The response above about who is doing the rating is bang on.

Whose opinion matters?

Professional reviewers supposedly have a better handle on good sound. But since the entire field is subjective who knows?

ID speakers have more individual good reviews on sites like this than mainstream speakers.

But are they valid?

Very few ID speakers are reviewed by the likes of Stereophile or TAS, partly because they have a policy to only review components available from B&M stores.

I'm not sure I agree with your central premise anyway.

I haven't heard them lately, but Revel used to make extremely good speakers for less than your typical ID offering.

The F12 comes to mind as a speaker that measured extraordinarily well, and was almost universally praised.

For me, ID comes into its own at higher prices, where economies of scale diminish.

The higher echelons of Salk are vastly better value than Wilson/Magico etc.

I'm not sure the lower echelons are any better than entry level Revel or KEF.

 

[ematthews]

Funny thing is with all of this. I have some Swan 2.1 speakers hooked up to my computer via an Emotiva XDA-1 and it sounds fantastic. Honestly one the best sounding speakers I have. I have no idea if its room acoustics or what. My office here at work is in the back of a parts warehouse. The sub sits under my desk and the monitors are about 6 feet apart and a little over arms length in distance. Its a 3d sound. Voices come from all over. To be honest I have been trying to get this exact soundstage at home. My point is. I really think it all comes down the placement and the room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most ID speakers are basically straight monkey coffins, whereas you get all manor of curved cabinets and flush baffles on retail brands...

Can you get more specific?

You mean like the B&W 800D, 802D, 803D, 804D, 805D?

How much would ID companies charge to build a speaker like the 805D with aftermarket diamond tweeters, which I think cost about $4,000/pair?

Any other Brick & Mortar brands that have cabinets or special pricing on drivers that ID companies do not get?

Is the Revel Salon2 cabinet too much for ID companies to build without charging more than $14K? I say this because a few years ago I paid $14K for brand new Salon2 and $12K for brand new B&W 802D2.

 

[ematthews]

Can you get more specific?

You mean like the B&W 800D, 802D, 803D, 804D, 805D?

How much would ID companies charge to build a speaker like the 805D with aftermarket diamond tweeters, which I think cost about $4,000/pair?

Any other Brick & Mortar brands that have cabinets or special pricing on drivers that ID companies do not get?

Is the Revel Salon2 cabinet too much for ID companies to build without charging more than $14K? I say this because a few years ago I paid $14K for brand new Salon2 and $12K for brand new B&W 802D2.

I think I saw somewhere that Dave over at Ascend said the Sierra Tower would be around 8 grand with Diamond tweeters. Same cabinet however.

 

[snakeeyes]

I have to say I literally started laughing out loud like a crazy person on my commute home from work yesterday on public transit at the image of “they look like straight monkey coffins”. I was picturing the dead monkey in there! LOL

 

[snakeeyes]

I like them very much. What I'm really looking forward to is the Horizon center which is arriving on Wednesday.
Contact Dave at Ascend, or check the Ascend forums, lots of info there.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Did you get the new Horizon center set up? How’s it sounding with the RAAL?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think I saw somewhere that Dave over at Ascend said the Sierra Tower would be around 8 grand with Diamond tweeters. Same cabinet however.

So it goes from $2K to $8K with Diamond Tweeters?

I thought it would be a $4K per pair upgrade.

Anyway, my point is that when I bought my 802D2 for $12K, I could have also bought the 805D2 for $4K.

If the Diamond tweeter upgrade is already $4K+ per pair just for the Diamond Tweeters alone, the $4K price for the 805D2 would be significantly lower than if done by any ID companies, which would have charged $4K for the tweeters + charge for the curved cabinets with Piano gloss finish.

Forget about any ID companies trying to build those Marlon Heads and big shiny Piano gloss curved cabinets for the 802D2 for a lower price than $12K that I paid brand new for the 802D2.

Now if we were looking at Legacy, Wilson, and other square looking cabinets with non-Diamond tweeters, then ID companies have a better chance.

 

[wrunow]

Did you get the new Horizon center set up? How’s it sounding with the RAAL?

Yes, I got it set up Wednesday night. So far so good. Detail, resolution, and clarity are outstanding. Only thing that I have heard that compares is the big Martin Logan center, but this has more midrange and bass. I will admit though, I have not heard a lot of center channels to compare with, only those at BB and what I have owned. Male and female voices are really improved over my last center.

 

[ichigo]

So it goes from $2K to $8K with Diamond Tweeters?

I thought it would be a $4K per pair upgrade.

Anyway, my point is that when I bought my 802D2 for $12K, I could have also bought the 805D2 for $4K.

If the Diamond tweeter upgrade is already $4K+ per pair just for the Diamond Tweeters alone, the $4K price for the 805D2 would be significantly lower than if done by any ID companies, which would have charged $4K for the tweeters + charge for the curved cabinets with Piano gloss finish.

Forget about any ID companies trying to build those Marlon Heads and big shiny Piano gloss curved cabinets for the 802D2 for a lower price than $12K that I paid brand new for the 802D2.

Now if we were looking at Legacy, Wilson, and other square looking cabinets with non-Diamond tweeters, then ID companies have a better chance.

I don't know how comparable the B&W diamond tweeter is to the Accuton or Seas diamond domes, but ID companies don't typically produce their own drivers, and have to source them from OEMs whereas a large retail brand may be more vertically integrated with their own in-house drivers. While they certainly get better pricing than the average DIY'er on Madisound, the ID company has less control over the pricing of drivers since they don't control production.

I would say the Seas tweeter in particular seems very interesting. I've never seen a tweeter with usable output to 350Hz (!). A driver like that would make it pretty flexible I imagine for pairing with a mid or woofer.

 

[snakeeyes]

Yes, I got it set up Wednesday night. So far so good. Detail, resolution, and clarity are outstanding. Only thing that I have heard that compares is the big Martin Logan center, but this has more midrange and bass. I will admit though, I have not heard a lot of center channels to compare with, only those at BB and what I have owned. Male and female voices are really improved over my last center.

Put it thru some action movies next. Sounds like it is a good one.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I don't know how comparable the B&W diamond tweeter is to the Accuton or Seas diamond domes, but ID companies don't typically produce their own drivers, and have to source them from OEMs whereas a large retail brand may be more vertically integrated with their own in-house drivers. While they certainly get better pricing than the average DIY'er on Madisound, the ID company has less control over the pricing of drivers since they don't control production.

I would say the Seas tweeter in particular seems very interesting. I've never seen a tweeter with usable output to 350Hz (!). A driver like that would make it pretty flexible I imagine for pairing with a mid or woofer.

You can't judge the usable low-end extension from the frequency response plot alone. The limiting factor is the Fs of the driver, which in this case is 530 Hz. You need to cross considerably higher than one octave above the free air resonance of the tweeter. The exact frequency will depend on the crossover slope. Seas lists the operating range of the diamond as 1800 Hz to oblivion.