SACD and multi-channel questions

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
So, with your players you don't have the option to listen to either the stereo or the multi-channel layer? On my OPPOs and on the Sony X800, I can switch between the two.
Yes the Oppo I set the priority to multi-ch as that's why I got the disk, really don't care about the 2ch dsd layer any more than the redbook layer. I have to set the Sony's for one vs the other as was mentioned by Trepdp83. Nothing on the player/remote controls flashes a choice of 2.0/multich playback in any case afaik.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Sometimes you just feel like hearing more speakers. Sometimes 2D doesn’t cut it and somebody will grab the 3D version of a movie to watch instead. Same material, just a different way to experience it. Sometimes you slice up the apple and sometimes you just bite into it. Different strokes... Oh, and yes, 2 channel is more than 1 and is technically multi channel, but when discussing SACD, multi channel refers to more than 2 and usually refers to 5. But, then those 3 channel... Just a mess.
I've heard nice things about some of the 3ch stuff, which is probably how stereo really should have gone rather than 2ch....

I often already have a 2ch version of what I get on a multich SACD, so my main interest is in the general difference rather than a specific difference in a 2ch presentation. I do fairly regularly upmix 2ch content, depending on content, as a preference. I would just like to have a specific mix rather than an upmixer....
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
Yes the Oppo I set the priority to multi-ch as that's why I got the disk, really don't care about the 2ch dsd layer any more than the redbook layer. I have to set the Sony's for one vs the other as was mentioned by Trepdp83. Nothing on the player/remote controls flashes a choice of 2.0/multich playback in any case afaik.
On all three Blu-ray players that I have, just by pressing the Audio button on the remote control, it switches between Stereo and Multi-channel.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
On all three Blu-ray players that I have, just by pressing the Audio button on the remote control, it switches between Stereo and Multi-channel.
I might have that, but as I mentioned, just not why I'm listening to the disk particularly. I thought you meant the display/remote alerted you and mentioned which it was going to play or something along those lines....assume it gave you a choice somehow if it could play both.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
I might have that, but as I mentioned, just not why I'm listening to the disk particularly. I thought you meant the display/remote alerted you and mentioned which it was going to play or something along those lines....assume it gave you a choice somehow if it could play both.
If you press on Display, it will indicate which layer is playing though.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
If you press on Display, it will indicate which layer is playing though.
I think what button you press varies with gear. Like I said, thought it was something more basic rather than a selection on a remote....you're killing me, Smalls! :)
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic General
I purchased my OPPO-205 expressly to enjoy 5.1 SACDs. It and 5.1 SACDs do not disappoint. For the most part, the pleasure is sound breadth and depth that I do not get from stereo. Since the OPPO also accommodates 5.1 downloads gaplessly via usb drive inputs, I am now enjoying Acoustic Sounds 5.1 FLAC downloads too, such as the Seattle Symphony's performance of The Firebird, the best performance of this work I've ever heard. At any rate, although folks say SACD is dead, I have had no problems exceeding my monthly allowance on new music purchases in the multi-channel SACD format. Acoustic Sounds has hundreds of SACD titles and advertises new releases often. In fact, I ordered a new production of DSOTM in 5.1 SACD recently. One more thing, the OPPO's 2 DACs convert multi-channel, sending analog out to a 20 year old Sony TA-P9000ES preamplifier, since my Sony TA-E9000ES Pre-Pro does not have an HDMI input, or multi-channel analog inputs.
 
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9397SVTs

9397SVTs

Audioholic Intern
Then unless you can get some older gear you need a disc player that will output DSD or convert it to PCM, to send it over HDMI. You then need a multichannel receiver or pre/pro. In that latter case you will need the requisite number of amplifiers and speakers. If you want to hear SACD decoded from DSD then you need a receiver or pre/pro with a DSD decoder. I don't think there are players any more that have multi channel analog outs any more, but there may be. I can't name you one. Then of course you would need a receiver with analog multi channel audio ins. Unfortunately this is complicated and potentially expensive. It is small wonder people get confused, and this speaks to my point that DSD should NEVER have seen the light of day, and it is a terrible pity it did. There was never any need for it, as PCM that was well developed could, and would have, done it far better.

If you want a player that will send DSD over HDMI and plays back SACD perfectly then the Sony UDP-X800M2 is the player to get. It plays everything out there. It plays 4K BD as well as the $1000 Panasonic player which can't play SACD. I think it is better then the former Oppo players also.

I have the above Sony player and Panasonic DP-UB9000. I think that the video performance of both are identical. The Panasonic player can not best it in any distinguishable way. And that is playing both through the top of the line OLED 77" TV, considered the best screen available at this time.

I think that is as much as I can tell you about it all.

On one last point the audio only BD discs I have are every bit as good as SACD, and actually better, as you are not limited to 5.1 channels.
I have tha Panasonic DP-UB9000 and like it very much.

I wonder, if I get the Sony UDP-X800M2 and connect it to the "media player" HDMI input on my Marantz SR7011, will I be able to play 5.1 SACD's?

The SR7011 manual mentions the ability for multi-channel playback, but I'm not sure if it strictly applies to the 7.1 analog inputs.

Anyone know if the HDMI route would work?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
I have tha Panasonic DP-UB9000 and like it very much.

I wonder, if I get the Sony UDP-X800M2 and connect it to the "media player" HDMI input on my Marantz SR7011, will I be able to play 5.1 SACD's?

The SR7011 manual mentions the ability for multi-channel playback, but I'm not sure if it strictly applies to the 7.1 analog inputs.

Anyone know if the HDMI route would work?
Sure, it will work. I use a Marantz SR5011 which is only a mid class AVR and it handles it without a hitch. By the way, why would you use the media player input on your AVR? You can use any HDMI input,CD, DVD or Blu-ray etc., and you configure it with the Input Assignment feature.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I have tha Panasonic DP-UB9000 and like it very much.

I wonder, if I get the Sony UDP-X800M2 and connect it to the "media player" HDMI input on my Marantz SR7011, will I be able to play 5.1 SACD's?

The SR7011 manual mentions the ability for multi-channel playback, but I'm not sure if it strictly applies to the 7.1 analog inputs.

Anyone know if the HDMI route would work?
Yes, it will work. Your receiver has a DSD decoder, so it can play multichannel SACD without the player having to convert the DSD to PCM. The Sony player can convert DSD to PCM but it can also output DSD via HDMI.

So this would be your easiest way to play SACD.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I've heard nice things about some of the 3ch stuff, which is probably how stereo really should have gone rather than 2ch....

I often already have a 2ch version of what I get on a multich SACD, so my main interest is in the general difference rather than a specific difference in a 2ch presentation. I do fairly regularly upmix 2ch content, depending on content, as a preference. I would just like to have a specific mix rather than an upmixer....
The three channel recordings are interesting. It is a great story.

In the 1950s Robert Fine had specially constructed 3 channel Ampex tape recorders built and also three channel optical recorders. He made recordings for Mercury Living Presence with these machines using three spaced omni Telefunken mics. Telefunken became Neumann later. Not only were most of these recordings of excellent quality, but most of the performances were outstanding also. Of course there was no domestic 3 channel play back then. So the recordings were mixed down to 2 channel stereo.

Robert Fine was always assisted by his wife Wilma Cozart. In her nineties she had a special 3 channel recorder made in Japan and an optical recorder. She transferred all the surviving three channel masters to SACD. These recordings are of outstanding historic interest and issued on Mercury Living Presence SACDs. The quality of these SACDs is outstanding in terms of both audio quality and musicianship. In my view these are the most significant SACD issues of all. These recordings were made over 60 years ago. I remember at the dawn of stereo, Robert Fines recordings for Mercury were highly praised and sought after. At the dawn of stereo in 1959 there were some well crafted recordings from the likes of EMI and Decca. The EMI recording of Holst's Planets with Sir Malcolm Sargent conducting the BBC symphony orchestra was a particular landmark in high fidelity recording. I still have my copy. It still sounds really good. Back then there was real care and craftsmanship.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
The three channel recordings are interesting. It is a great story.

In the 1950s Robert Fine had specially constructed 3 channel Ampex tape recorders built and also three channel optical recorders. He made recordings for Mercury Living Presence with these machines using three spaced omni Telefunken mics. Telefunken became Neumann later. Not only were most of these recordings of excellent quality, but most of the performances were outstanding also. Of course there was no domestic 3 channel play back then. So the recordings were mixed down to 2 channel stereo.

Robert Fine was always assisted by his wife Wilma Cozart. In her nineties she had a special 3 channel recorder made in Japan and an optical recorder. She transferred all the surviving three channel masters to SACD. These recordings are of outstanding historic interest and issued on Mercury Living Presence SACDs. The quality of these SACDs is outstanding in terms of both audio quality and musicianship. In my view these are the most significant SACD issues of all. These recordings were made over 60 years ago. I remember at the dawn of stereo, Robert Fines recordings for Mercury were highly praised and sought after. At the dawn of stereo in 1959 there were some well crafted recordings from the likes of EMI and Decca. The EMI recording of Holst's Planets with Sir Malcolm Sargent conducting the BBC symphony orchestra was a particular landmark in high fidelity recording. I still have my copy. It still sounds really good. Back then there was real care and craftsmanship.
Yes, I have several of those Mercury Living Presence SACDs. They are outstanding in sound quality, but have unfortunately been discontinued. You and I are lucky to have been able to purchase them when they were available for a reasonable price.

RCA also had some excellent recordings from the 1950-60's in their Living Stereo disc series. Several of those were transferred onto SACDs, and a good portion of these had been originally recorded in three-channel stereo. I have several of these as well, but I find that the Mercurys have a better audio quality.
 
9397SVTs

9397SVTs

Audioholic Intern
Sure, it will work. I use a Marantz SR5011 which is only a mid class AVR and it handles it without a hitch. By the way, why would you use the media player input on your AVR? You can use any HDMI input,CD, DVD or Blu-ray etc., and you configure it with the Input Assignment feature.
No particular reason. I'm already using the Cable/Sat and Blu-Ray HDMI inputs. Aside from the media, there's DVD, GAME, AUX2, and CD. I guess I could use CD. Not sure that it really matters.
 
9397SVTs

9397SVTs

Audioholic Intern
Yes, it will work. Your receiver has a DSD decoder, so it can play multichannel SACD without the player having to convert the DSD to PCM. The Sony player can convert DSD to PCM but it can also output DSD via HDMI.

So this would be your easiest way to play SACD.
That's good to hear. A simple solution for what seems to be a complex media choice.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic General
Yes, I have several of those Mercury Living Presence SACDs. They are outstanding in sound quality, but have unfortunately been discontinued. You and I are lucky to have been able to purchase them when they were available for a reasonable price.

RCA also had some excellent recordings from the 1950-60's in their Living Stereo disc series. Several of those were transferred onto SACDs, and a good portion of these had been originally recorded in three-channel stereo. I have several of these as well, but I find that the Mercurys have a better audio quality.
I'm still buying Living Stereo 3 channel SACDs, sometimes under $10 on Amazon.
 
9397SVTs

9397SVTs

Audioholic Intern
I ordered the Sony UBP-X800M2 and an HDMI cable. They should be here on Monday.

We'll see what happens.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I ordered the Sony UBP-X800M2 and an HDMI cable. They should be here on Monday.

We'll see what happens.
I was trying to steer you to the x700 since that’s a little less for SACD but with the x800m2 you can also play dvd-audio discs. The only one I really play on DVD-Audio often is my Neil Young Harvest disc. :)
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I really like the sound. I don't have a lot of experience with speakers, but did compre the B&W's to a few others.

I have heard speakers at high end stores that are definitely out of my price range, ie: $30k-$60k.(27yrs ago) They were absolutely amazing.

What would be a better/more transparent option in the $10k-$15k range?
You and me both. I started out looking at the new B&W 800 series V D3 and quickly turned the page based on the new pricing.

I'll answer your question this way.

I'm an unabashed Salk fanboy now and I think you could spend less than $10k and come away with a dream speaker...while I love my speakers...the midrange can be too almost too transparent for some...meaning it's very sensitive to the recording....I would steer you towards the Song3, or Song3 BeAT $4k to $5k....you don't need it with your subs, but if you wanted more bass...the Song3 Encore...is a helluva speaker $6kish

I feel pretty strongly you would be impressed by Salks, but that said, I understand custom speakers are not for everyone.

I demoed a lot of OEM speakers in the $2 to $6k range prior to buying the Salks and to be honest I really didn't start feel like I was improving SQ on my 20+ yr old B&Ws until the speakers were $4-5k and up.

OEM speakers that I demoed and considered better than my B&Ws. Others I would recommend you hear.

Monitor Audio...
  • Gold 300...$5-$7k...I've heard these at length...I played my entire demo playlist on these more than once..brighter without being bright if that makes sense...but generally more "open" sounding than the B&W....surprisingly the bass was only slightly better given the stated measurements...this speaker has been discontinued now, maybe some stray pairs out there. The next level Platinum PL300 which I have not heard personally but I've heard good things. is probably in the price range you mentioned.
Revel
  • F208...$5k...playing the same material but totally different rooms so it wasn't really apples to apples, I liked this speaker a lot, it had the strongest low end performance. Now that I've learned how to integrate subs into my music playback...the bass alone wouldn't make me buy them but I would feel pretty good about owning a pair of these.
  • F206...$3.5k this is a great speaker unless the room is really large and you're sitting more than 10' away. These imo would be an upgrade, but maybe not by leaps and bounds...iirc your room is fairly large, if so I would steer towards the F208.
  • F228Be...$10k...never heard these, but based on the performance of the F208...it's one I would certainly would want to hear if I was in this price range.

Paradigm

  • Persona 3f...$10k...I heard these after I bought the Salks...apparently I like ceramic drives...I like this speaker a lot, different class than the B&Ws...your space won't swallow these up...clean, powerful. Paired with your subs you have all the juice you need. I will say, paired with subs...my Salks don't give much away to these unless you are looking for max SPL, really nice speaker.
  • 5F...$15-$17k...these were playing also when I was there, but I only ventured in there a few minutes as I would've had to take out a loan to buy these.
Legacy

  • Signature SE...$7k
  • Focus SE...$10k
I had serious interest in the Signature SE, but I never got to listen to the Legacy line...they have gotten strong reviews including one from this website. If there is a dealer nearby, I would give these some time.

Good luck with it!
 
9397SVTs

9397SVTs

Audioholic Intern
I was trying to steer you to the x700 since that’s a little less for SACD but with the x800m2 you can also play dvd-audio discs. The only one I really play on DVD-Audio often is my Neil Young Harvest disc. :)
I appreciate it.

The cost difference was only $50.00. So, why not?
 
9397SVTs

9397SVTs

Audioholic Intern
You and me both. I started out looking at the new B&W 800 series V D3 and quickly turned the page based on the new pricing.

I'll answer your question this way.

I'm an unabashed Salk fanboy now and I think you could spend less than $10k and come away with a dream speaker...while I love my speakers...the midrange can be too almost too transparent for some...meaning it's very sensitive to the recording....I would steer you towards the Song3, or Song3 BeAT $4k to $5k....you don't need it with your subs, but if you wanted more bass...the Song3 Encore...is a helluva speaker $6kish

I feel pretty strongly you would be impressed by Salks, but that said, I understand custom speakers are not for everyone.

I demoed a lot of OEM speakers in the $2 to $6k range prior to buying the Salks and to be honest I really didn't start feel like I was improving SQ on my 20+ yr old B&Ws until the speakers were $4-5k and up.

OEM speakers that I demoed and considered better than my B&Ws. Others I would recommend you hear.

Monitor Audio...
  • Gold 300...$5-$7k...I've heard these at length...I played my entire demo playlist on these more than once..brighter without being bright if that makes sense...but generally more "open" sounding than the B&W....surprisingly the bass was only slightly better given the stated measurements...this speaker has been discontinued now, maybe some stray pairs out there. The next level Platinum PL300 which I have not heard personally but I've heard good things. is probably in the price range you mentioned.
Revel
  • F208...$5k...playing the same material but totally different rooms so it wasn't really apples to apples, I liked this speaker a lot, it had the strongest low end performance. Now that I've learned how to integrate subs into my music playback...the bass alone wouldn't make me buy them but I would feel pretty good about owning a pair of these.
  • F206...$3.5k this is a great speaker unless the room is really large and you're sitting more than 10' away. These imo would be an upgrade, but maybe not by leaps and bounds...iirc your room is fairly large, if so I would steer towards the F208.
  • F228Be...$10k...never heard these, but based on the performance of the F208...it's one I would certainly would want to hear if I was in this price range.

Paradigm

  • Persona 3f...$10k...I heard these after I bought the Salks...apparently I like ceramic drives...I like this speaker a lot, different class than the B&Ws...your space won't swallow these up...clean, powerful. Paired with your subs you have all the juice you need. I will say, paired with subs...my Salks don't give much away to these unless you are looking for max SPL, really nice speaker.
  • 5F...$15-$17k...these were playing also when I was there, but I only ventured in there a few minutes as I would've had to take out a loan to buy these.
Legacy

  • Signature SE...$7k
  • Focus SE...$10k
I had serious interest in the Signature SE, but I never got to listen to the Legacy line...they have gotten strong reviews including one from this website. If there is a dealer nearby, I would give these some time.

Good luck with it!
Thank you for the lengthy and detailed reply. I'll have to see what's available to demo in my area (Phoenix, AZ).
 

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