RSL Digs Deep to 16Hz with new Speedwoofer 12S for $800!

[gaby95]

*fart*

 

[isolar8001]

 

[paveldeg]

I'm curios why this is called "speedwoofer" with such big GD, which clearly renders rather slow subwoofer?
I think RSL DSP processing needs improvement, may be faster DSP and better algorithms.

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm curios why this is called "speedwoofer" with such big GD, which clearly renders rather slow subwoofer?
I think RSL DSP processing needs improvement, may be faster DSP and better algorithms.

What are you talking about? Measured Group Delay is well within parameters.

If you've got other information to counter the review done here, please post up.

 

[isolar8001]

I'm curios why this is called "speedwoofer" with such big GD, which clearly renders rather slow subwoofer?
I think RSL DSP processing needs improvement, may be faster DSP and better algorithms.

Maybe a little lie down is in order for today.

 

[paveldeg]

What are you talking about? Measured Group Delay is well within parameters.
View attachment 64971

If you've got other information to counter the review done here, please post up.

GD crosses 1 cycle, and it's over 50 ms at 20 Hz, good subs keep GD under 20-25 ms flat. I mean it's not horrible, but hardly "speedwoofer", I understand this is a marketing name, but still...

 

[ryanosaur]

GD crosses 1 cycle, and it's over 50 ms at 20 Hz, good subs keep GD under 20-25 ms flat. I mean it's not horrible, but hardly "speedwoofer", I understand this is a marketing name, but still...

Almost every designer and acoustics specialist I've talked to pretty much agree that anything under 1.5 cycles is inaudible. Beyond that, for a ported Sub to track so closely and barely break over 1 cycle is pretty amazing.

FWIW, I don't own one and likely won't ever, but GD is not something I would use as an argument against this Sub.

Complaining about GD like this and arguing for better comes across like somebody that bit hard on REL's marketing. Comments about "fast" and "slow" Bass are pretty often disregarded here as marketing BS.

Certainly there was a time when Subs didn't perform well, but those times have changed pretty significantly. Unless a designer completely sh!ts the bed, anything modeled today and competently built will far exceed any such concerns. Welcome to 2024.

 

[paveldeg]

Almost every designer and acoustics specialist I've talked to pretty much agree that anything under 1.5 cycles is inaudible. Beyond that, for a ported Sub to track so closely and barely break over 1 cycle is pretty amazing.

FWIW, I don't own one and likely won't ever, but GD is not something I would use as an argument against this Sub.

Complaining about GD like this and arguing for better comes across like somebody that bit hard on REL's marketing. Comments about "fast" and "slow" Bass are pretty often disregarded here as marketing BS.

Certainly there was a time when Subs didn't perform well, but those times have changed pretty significantly. Unless a designer completely sh!ts the bed, anything modeled today and competently built will far exceed any such concerns. Welcome to 2024.

Well, 2024 hasn't changed laws of physics or human hearing, GD still represents audio delay, who would guess!
For some boosted SPL specs makes a sub amazing, for some like me great bass sound makes a sub amazing, call me old school, and GD should be low and flat for bass to be tight and in sync with mains based on my personal experience.
I can say it doesn't make a ton of effort to make great paper specs by manipulating input signal with DSP, I think there's a reason that not a single DSP sub vendor is offering "DSP off" button, because without that DSP "magic" those $1000 subs would sound like $200 subs.
DSP subs make total sense for movies, where no one cares about delays, and where SPL level rules (till you get your hearing damaged from that great 110 dB exposion effect), but for music give me pure analog subwoofer any day.

 

[isolar8001]

DSP subs make total sense for movies, where no one cares about delays, and where SPL level rules (till you get your hearing damaged from that great 110 dB exposion effect), but for music give me pure analog subwoofer any day.

I'm going to assume you haven't used/heard this or any other RSL subs.

You would probably be better served by making a new post topic on Analog Vs Powered/DSP subs to further discuss your preferences.
There is a good reason some of us old timers that grew up with Analog subs love these RSL's.
Musicality is goal number one with RSL.

 

[ryanosaur]

Well, 2024 hasn't changed laws of physics or human hearing, GD still represents audio delay, who would guess!
For some boosted SPL specs makes a sub amazing, for some like me great bass sound makes a sub amazing, call me old school, and GD should be low and flat for bass to be tight and in sync with mains based on my personal experience.
I can say it doesn't make a ton of effort to make great paper specs by manipulating input signal with DSP, I think there's a reason that not a single DSP sub vendor is offering "DSP off" button, because without that DSP "magic" those $1000 subs would sound like $200 subs.
DSP subs make total sense for movies, where no one cares about delays, and where SPL level rules (till you get your hearing damaged from that great 110 dB exposion effect), but for music give me pure analog subwoofer any day.

I agree with some of what you say, please don't misunderstand. I also think you are being exceedingly academic about some of this, and that's fine, too. We will agree to disagree.
Cheers!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

What are you talking about? Measured Group Delay is well within parameters.
View attachment 64971

If you've got other information to counter the review done here, please post up.

Well, 2024 hasn't changed laws of physics or human hearing, GD still represents audio delay, who would guess!
For some boosted SPL specs makes a sub amazing, for some like me great bass sound makes a sub amazing, call me old school, and GD should be low and flat for bass to be tight and in sync with mains based on my personal experience.
I can say it doesn't make a ton of effort to make great paper specs by manipulating input signal with DSP, I think there's a reason that not a single DSP sub vendor is offering "DSP off" button, because without that DSP "magic" those $1000 subs would sound like $200 subs.
DSP subs make total sense for movies, where no one cares about delays, and where SPL level rules (till you get your hearing damaged from that great 110 dB exposion effect), but for music give me pure analog subwoofer any day.

So if read that graph correctly, it hardly comes close to 1c let alone 1.5c where it only does from 20-22hz. That’s well below where you’d be concerned with being “in sync” with your mains. Unless they’re very very special, in which case you may likely not run subwoofers anyway.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So if read that graph correctly, it hardly comes close to 1c let alone 1.5c where it only does from 20-22hz. That’s well below where you’d be concerned with being “in sync” with your mains. Unless they’re very very special, in which case you may likely not run subwoofers anyway.

Did I say something wrong…….?

 

[ryanosaur]

Did I say something wrong…….?

*shrugs
Got pretty quiet all of the sudden.
*shrugs again

Guess you really know how to shut down a conversation!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

*shrugs
Got pretty quiet all of the sudden.
*shrugs again

Guess you really know how to shut down a conversation!

Lmao! I guess I have a hidden talent.
Happy new year brother!

 

[ryanosaur]

Happy new year brother!

And to you, my friend.

 

[isolar8001]

 

[shadyJ]

He loses credibility early on for his compliments of that hack James Larson!

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, 2024 hasn't changed laws of physics or human hearing, GD still represents audio delay, who would guess!
For some boosted SPL specs makes a sub amazing, for some like me great bass sound makes a sub amazing, call me old school, and GD should be low and flat for bass to be tight and in sync with mains based on my personal experience.
I can say it doesn't make a ton of effort to make great paper specs by manipulating input signal with DSP, I think there's a reason that not a single DSP sub vendor is offering "DSP off" button, because without that DSP "magic" those $1000 subs would sound like $200 subs.
DSP subs make total sense for movies, where no one cares about delays, and where SPL level rules (till you get your hearing damaged from that great 110 dB exposion effect), but for music give me pure analog subwoofer any day.

You are confusing group delay with total Q of the design. Whether the bass is tight or not depends on the design being low Q. Group delay below a cycle is not audible.
Q is the major determining factor as to whether the bass is tight or "wooly". DSP won't mask a high Q sloppy design.

 

[isolar8001]

He loses credibility early on for his compliments of that hack James Larson!

He probably doesn't know that James Larson gives bad subwoofers a time out in the corner of a deserted, isolated parking lot either.

 

[paveldeg]

You are confusing group delay with total Q of the design. Whether the bass is tight or not depends on the design being low Q. Group delay below a cycle is not audible.
Q is the major determining factor as to whether the bass is tight or "wooly". DSP won't mask a high Q sloppy design.

Not "confusing" anything, most expensive subwoofers commonly accepted as good (including those with DSP) have low flat GD, GD is GD no matter how you spin it, it does effect bass audio quality otherwise no one would even bother to measure it.
Can you hear 40+ ms GD at 20 Hz? I can, I don't know if you can or not, and I don't care.
All I'm saying RSL subs are not spectacular GD wise, no flat GD, and it's not low enough for the price. Many subs at half price have similar GD, or better. Where RSL shines is max SPL values, but that's achieved at 2x weight of similar priced 12" subs, so again hardly anything spectacular.
But still RSL seems like a good option for home theater application, especially if you just like hauling 80+ lbs around.