Rotel RSX 1550 vs Yamaha RX-A2000

[timoteo]

Also while B&W makes a great speaker, i wouldnt recommend their subs. Not that they are bad but for the money you can get MUCH better!! The PV1 is not worth the money.

 

[3db]

Oh, I see.

So when you BITSTREAM SACD DSD Direct it is no longer PURE DIRECT since it is DIGITAL????

So that's why ANALOG is better than DIGITAL! Gotcha.

So using the 5.1 analog inputs is better than using HDMI or DenonLink or Optical Digital since ALL DIGITAL (PCM or Bitstream) is not PURE DIRECT?

If a Player converts a digital signal to analog (DAC) and sends the analog signal to the pre-pro, then and only then it is Pure Direct?

The discussion is what is pure direct verses what isn't. I'm not arguing which is better or what isn't. Thats all up to our ears to decide. The point I'm making is pure direct with an analog signal in by passes all digital circuits.

 

[LAB3]

There are many good sub options!! Check out the subwoofer section on this site. Some to consider are HSU, SVS, Rythmic, Epik, Earthquake & more. There are very nice subs that start in the $500+ range. For that price you will start getting incredible bass. Consider what you will be using it for more. Music, Movies or both (prob both). Ported & passive radiator will give you more output so is recommended for cinema for the impact. Sealed will give you better transients or "tighter" bass, will go lower generally speaking but with less dBs. There is a good article in HT-mag about the difference between four 8" subs, two 12" & one 15". Great read! I went with dual 12" PR & love what theyve done to the overall quality & impact. Your room & listening habits & prefference will all play a part in what is best for you!! A bass shaker mounted in your couch is also a great fun addition. Lots of fun things you can do!

Id recommend getting a budget & either get 2 you can afford or get the best one you can with the goal of adding a second later. Once you go with dual subs youll never look back.

Good advise. I have such a small den I was able to have great movie special effects (shaking the room) with Two used Klipsch Synergy Sub 12" 300/650 Bash and my fronts are Klipsch Cornwalls (15" woofers) but having two subs in opposite corners of the room shocked me. My friend has two SVS Ultra (expensive) they are awsome in his large room. He even said I got lucky with entry level used subs in my 5.2 HT system. I have $550.00 in both of them.

 

[3db]

3dB, with due respect I would have to at least partially disagree with you on this simply because I don't think there are established standard definitions that AV manufacturers can follow, all those so call straight, direct, and pure direct could, and probably do mean slightly different from one another.

Take the 4308 (that I own) for instance, you could set it up such that pure direct would work like the way you describe if the input is analog. However, if the input is digital, it's setup menu offer the flexibility for you to select the subwoofer on or off. It only defines pure direct as follow:

"DIRECT :
In this mode the signals bypass the tone control circuitry for high
quality sound.
The sound is output to the same channels as the input signal.
The display when the DIRECT mode is selected depends on the input
signal.
For multi-channel sources, the display depends on the surround back
output’s play mode.

When in the PURE DIRECT mode, the GUI screen is not displayed
and the display on the main unit is turned off.
• If the HDMI input connector is selected, video outputs are output in
the PURE DIRECT mode.
• The channel level and surround parameters in the PURE DIRECT
mode are the same as in the DIRECT mode."

So if the source is digital, you have the option to use the sub even when pure direct is selected.


This is what the Yamaha RX-V1800 manual says:

"When the Pure Direct mode is
activated, this unit plays back the selected source with the
least circuitry."Note that it just says "least".

Denon says something like that too in other parts of the manual. I understand no one is saying one is better than the other, it boils down to how one wish to define pure direct. To me, direct is direct, as soon as you add another adjective such as pure, then it begs the question, what is pure, how pure, etc. That's just me, others will think differently. This subject will by nature remain controversial as no one (yet) has the authority to rule on the definition.

My Yammy does the exact same thing with digital and I did mention that. I understand what you are saying. Direct, pure direct are terms manufacturers throw in to help describe the processing or add confusion to the consumer.

I took the arguement in the strict definition where the idea of direct or pure direct is to by pass the digital world all together. I realize that manufactures
have to offer some DSP because not everyone is like me and wants my 2 channel sound to remain wholy in the analog realm using nothing but analog signals in.

 

[LAB3]

The discussion is what is pure direct verses what isn't. I'm not arguing which is better or what isn't. Thats all up to our ears to decide. The point I'm making is pure direct with an analog signal in by passes all digital circuits.

I thought this topic was finished. I got it several pages ago. I guess that LFE was in the discussion it was not that far off topic.

 

[PannTher]

Again, I thank you for such awesome advice!

What would you recommend as a good 2 sub solution to match my CM8s from your experience?

Thanks again very much

 

[timoteo]

First let me ask a few questions:
How big is your room?
Is it opened up or closed in to other areas? If so what is that sq footage?
What is the master volume typically at being nice & loud to you?
And most importantly what will you budget be about?
Once i have that info i can START to recommend some subs. Some will perform excellent but not look all that great & others will look great & possibly lack a few Hz/dB but still have quality. So give me a little more to go on & ill be happy to be of help!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The point I'm making is pure direct with an analog signal in by passes all digital circuits.

Okay, Pure Direct with Analog Signal - bypass digital circuit and tone controls.

Pure Direct with Digital Signal - does NOT bypass digital circuit (DAC), but bypass tone controls.

Pure Direct means that TONE CONTROLS are bypassed.

 

[PannTher]

Thanks a lot for the help.

I am in a small room now, but will be in a larger one once I get my house.

I can listen with quite a high volume until the kids go to sleep, so that's not much of an issue as I'm out in the country.

I am interested in a setup that I can bring with me in the future to different sized rooms.

I'd say around $2000 for subs would be dequate? Less would be best, but if I was thinking of the PV1, that's what I was thinking

Thanks again very much. Really appreciated.

 

[timoteo]

$2000 is a great budget & a lot can be had for that amount! Right off the bat im thinking 2 of HSU's VTF-15H would destroy almost any room out there. I have heard them in a dual setup & movie scenes took on a whole new impact that is hard to describe. At $899ea its a steal. The downfall is that they are very large in size. Not only do you need the room for them but the lady may not like them. You can use them as an end table however.
2 SVS Sealed Box 12-NSD will run you $1500 for a pair. Nice tight clean bass & the piano finish would look perfect with your CMs.
Or 1 SVS Ported Box 13 Ultra would run $1899 in piano. Go on youtube to see what that beast can do!!!
I have access to a wholesaler & can get 2 Earthquake MiniMe P12 subs for $1450. Thats the route i took. They are dual 12" drivers in each, one active one passive. They each have over 3" of excursion which is rediculous. They really pound, yet have great transients for music. I highly recommend them. The piano finish on them is great plus they are small (14" cubed) very high wife acceptance! My wife couldnt believe the power they have for how small & nice looking. Dont be fooled by the word Minime
Rythmik & Epik are liked around here but i have no experience with them. Nor Outlaw.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I got both my Rythmik D15SE subs for $2,200.

I would check out the Audioholics Subwoofer showdown/reviews.

I read the Audioholics reviews, then the AVS forum on the Rythmik subs, and I was sold.

What sold me on the Rythmik subwoofers is they have excellent damping capability, Q = 0.5. Actually on the Rythmik website, they claim an effective Q value of 0.3, which is absolutely exceptional. They are extremely tight.

The Rythmik are great subwoofers.

I'm sure there are other great subwoofers out there.

 

[LAB3]

Look at SVS WOW the round tubes are more for HT but will do muisc fine adjust it and the Ultra Series music and movies but Both will work Great but expensive for Both. I like the tall round one for Bluray movies WOW. HSU my second pick, there are many others that will be Great for the budget you have. Good Hunting.

 

[timoteo]

Ok i just saw on Audiogon an HSU ULS15 in black for $670 that is a great sealed sub. Ive heard that one too! TIGHT & CLEAN!! Get that now then a second new for $1199 & your right in your budget with two 15" killers that are only 18" cubes!! Those will do wonders in large rooms when placed correctly!!

 

[LAB3]

Ok i just saw on Audiogon an HSU ULS15 in black for $670 that is a great sealed sub. Ive heard that one too! TIGHT & CLEAN!! Get that now then a second new for $1199 & your right in your budget with two 15" killers that are only 18" cubes!! Those will do wonders in large rooms when placed correctly!!

I agree.....Great deal $670.00. Wish I had the extra money. New HD AVR last month and Revox R2R is in shop being restored. this month.

 

[PannTher]

Man! You guys are so awesome!

The thing is, I am in Canada so have to think about duty when buying this stuff. Also, there is only one SVS retailer. My brother lives in Boston however, so that is an option.

Thanks again for all the advice! Keep it coming if you don't mind!

 

[timoteo]

My wife is from Vancouver. We visit every yr or so. Goin in august, i can bring a couple subs with me if you want! haha jk! But honestly id be seriously thinking about 2 ULS15s & if your new place ends up being enormous then you can ad a MBM12 which is their Mid Bass Module that you place near your couch. It picks up where you cross your speakers at (say 80hz) & goes down to 50hz. Then the to subs up front only have to cover 50 & below! You get rediculous punch from the mbm & unbeatably clean lows from the 15s. Now thats the ultimate setup! IMO..

 

[PannTher]

thanks again!!!

Would the vtf 15h not be more value for the money? I'm not too familiar with subs as you can see .

Thanks!

 

[timoteo]

There are pros & cons to both.
VTF-15H
Pros: cheaper, more output or volume at important frequencies, great for movies
Cons: very large inclosure, doesnt go as low in frequency as ULS-15, not as "tight"
ULS-15
Pros: smaller enclosure, tighter bass which is really good for music, still enough output for movies too
Cons: more expensive, not as loud for large areas (marginal)

As you can see there are pluses & minuses to both. However if you are considering 2 of the ULS-15 then you need not worry about not enough output. My prefference would be 2 of the sealed ULS-15s because youd have tighter, lower bass with smaller boxes to look at. The VTF-15H is just too big unless you have a dedicated room. Hopefully this info helps with what the differences are. As far as price, remember it takes more power & a stronger driver to produce bass from a smaller/sealed subwoofer.

 

[PannTher]

Well, I fell in love with the SVS 13 ultra but it is way too big!

You really find that 2 small earthquakes perform really well for music and HT?

Do you have a pic of your setup that you wouldnt mind sharing? Thanks so much for all your help!

Also, how would the Rythmik D15SE compare I guess?

 

[PannTher]

I can get REL subs near me as well, so with that knowledge, how would it compare?

Thanks