Rotel RSX 1550 vs Yamaha RX-A2000

[3db]

I know for a fact that on the Denon AVR-5308CI and AVP-A1HDCI you can get a subwoofer output in Pure Direct mode if you set the 2Ch/Direct setup to have a subwoofer and LFE+Main, instead of LFE+THX.

The only problem with that is the Main speakers get FULL RANGE.

Direct and Pure Direct modes will automatically set the main speakers to FULL RANGE, even if you set them to SMALL.

So the Subwoofer gets everything below the crossover point (20Hz-80Hz), but the main speakers gets 20Hz-20kHz. So there is some serious "double bass" between 20Hz-80Hz, unless your main speakers cannot play below "80Hz" or so.

I doubt that the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, which boasts as being the "only" pre-pro that is truly balanced from input-to-output for the "purist" sound, uses "Semi-Pure Direct".

If it says Pure Direct, then it is Pure Direct, not Half-Direct.

Denon homies don't play that.

I'm sure Gene can elaborate on the Pureness in the Pure Direct mode of the AVP-A1HDCI.

You are not getting i it. Pure direct mode is analog only from input to output by passing any and all DSP and only if the signal at the input is analog. Getting the .1 channel out involves DSP to derive the bass information.

If you can still get the subwoofer involved with an anlog signal only, then Pure Direct as Denon implements it is a misnomer. Its not Pure Direct but pseudo pure direct because of the DSP required to derive teh bass channel for the subwoofer.

On my Yamaha with anlog in, I cannot include the subwoofer. The whole signal path remains analog and that my friend is "pure Direct"

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are not getting i it. Pure direct mode is analog only from input to output by passing any and all DSP and only if the signal at the input is analog. Getting the .1 channel out involves DSP to derive the bass information.

If you can still get the subwoofer involved with an anlog signal only, then Pure Direct as Denon implements it is a misnomer. Its not Pure Direct but pseudo pure direct because of the DSP required to derive teh bass channel for the subwoofer.

On my Yamaha with anlog in, I cannot include the subwoofer. The whole signal path remains analog and that my friend is "pure Direct"

You don't think they can send the L/R signal unchanged straight to the subwoofer in Pure Direct mode?

Kind of like using 2 Y-cables to split the L/R signals; send one signal straight to the subwoofer and one to the Denon?

 

[LAB3]

You don't think they can send the L/R signal unchanged straight to the subwoofer in Pure Direct mode?

Kind of like using 2 Y-cables to split the L/R signals; send one signal straight to the subwoofer and one to the Denon?

I think he knows that, but by doing so it is Not Pure signal anymore......Denon has a cool feature that I hope my Yamaha 1900 has. I don't care if it's True Pure if I can have another way to turn off/on my subs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think he knows that, but by doing so it is Not Pure signal anymore......Denon has a cool feature that I hope my Yamaha 1900 has. I don't care if it's True Pure if I can have another way to turn off/on my subs.

It's not Pure Direct if Denon splits the signal, but it's Pure Direct if I split the signal using a Y-cable?

In other words, say I did Pure Direct 2.0. Then output the L/R signal to the amp like usual. But before that, I use a Y-cable to send the same signal to both the amp and the subwoofer. The signal is still Pure Direct, is it not?

Denon can do the exact same thing. They can simply split the Pure Direct 2.0 signal to both the L/R output and LFE output. Very simple.

IOW, Pure Direct is 2.0. But when the analog signal is sent to the ext amp, it can simply be split just like a Y-cable.

 

[gmichael]

It's not Pure Direct if Denon splits the signal, but it's Pure Direct if I split the signal using a Y-cable?

In other words, say I did Pure Direct 2.0. Then output the L/R signal to the amp like usual. But before that, I use a Y-cable to send the same signal to both the amp and the subwoofer. The signal is still Pure Direct, is it not?

Denon can do the exact same thing. They can simply split the Pure Direct 2.0 signal to both the L/R output and LFE output. Very simple.

IOW, Pure Direct is 2.0. But when the analog signal is sent to the ext amp, it can simply be split just like a Y-cable.

No. No it's not. Pure is untouched (or split) in any way.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No. No it's not. Pure is untouched (or split) in any way.

You guys are all wrong.

I just talked to a Denon Tech rep on the phone and he said that in Pure Direct Mode, the output signal is completely Pure when it goes to both the L/R output and the LFE.

If the LFE got the signal in the digital domain, as 3dB mentioned, then yes, it would have gone through DSP.

But since the LFE got the signal at the very last analog stage just like the L/R output, the signal is completely pure.

So there.

 

[gmichael]

You guys are all wrong.

I just talked to a Denon Tech rep on the phone and he said that in Pure Direct Mode, the output signal is completely Pure when it goes to both the L/R output and the LFE.

If the LFE got the signal in the digital domain, as 3dB mentioned, then yes, it would have gone through DSP.

But since the LFE got the signal at the very last analog stage just like the L/R output, the signal is completely pure.

So there.

Those Tech's would never say anything untrue to make their way seem best.

 

[3db]

It's not Pure Direct if Denon splits the signal, but it's Pure Direct if I split the signal using a Y-cable?

In other words, say I did Pure Direct 2.0. Then output the L/R signal to the amp like usual. But before that, I use a Y-cable to send the same signal to both the amp and the subwoofer. The signal is still Pure Direct, is it not?

Denon can do the exact same thing. They can simply split the Pure Direct 2.0 signal to both the L/R output and LFE output. Very simple.

IOW, Pure Direct is 2.0. But when the analog signal is sent to the ext amp, it can simply be split just like a Y-cable.

The question is...how are they splitting the signal? Is it through an analog low pass filter or is thru DSP?

The nature of the input signal also matters. If its a digital signal in, then it will not be pure direct as there is DSP to convert the signal from the digital domain to the analog domain.

 

[3db]

You guys are all wrong.

I just talked to a Denon Tech rep on the phone and he said that in Pure Direct Mode, the output signal is completely Pure when it goes to both the L/R output and the LFE.

If the LFE got the signal in the digital domain, as 3dB mentioned, then yes, it would have gone through DSP.

But since the LFE got the signal at the very last analog stage just like the L/R output, the signal is completely pure.

So there.

Ask him this pointed question ...

He didn't understand your question judging by his response. Ask him these questions via email so that we may read his response.

1.) If the input signal is analog, is the LFE channel derived from an analog low pass filter and that signal goes to the LFE or does it go through DSP?
2.) If the input signal is digital, how does it get converted into analog?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

2.) If the input signal is digital, how does it get converted into analog?

The same way the L/R 2.0 channel is converted to analog.

We know that in Pure Direct mode, an analog signal remains analog all the way to the output. Let's call this final output of the Pure Direct mode X.

X is the output signal of the Pure Direct 2.0.

If I take X and feed X to my subwoofer, is X still a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the subwoofer?

We know that in Pure Direct mode, a digital signal is converted to analog when it goes to the output. Let's call this final output of the Pure Direct mode Y.

If I take Y and feed Y to my subwoofer, is Y still a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the subwoofer?

When you use Pure Direct mode, is the pre-out signal to the amplifier a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the amplifier?

If this signal is a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the amplifier, then it is a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the subwoofer or ANYTHING else.

 

[PannTher]

Interesting convo.

My CM8s were reviewed to lack bass a little, so I am interested in that possibility in pure direct. I don't find an issue with the bass myself though.

I just finished the initial setup of my RX-A2000! I love it! I took a pic. Please excuse the mess with wiring etc.. a lot more work to do!

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[3db]

The same way the L/R 2.0 channel is converted to analog.

We know that in Pure Direct mode, an analog signal remains analog all the way to the output. Let's call this final output of the Pure Direct mode X.

X is the output signal of the Pure Direct 2.0.

If I take X and feed X to my subwoofer, is X still a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the subwoofer?.

How is the LFE channel extracting the information? This question has not been answered and is the key to this whole discussion. Ask the tech rep this question.

We know that in Pure Direct mode, a digital signal is converted to analog when it goes to the output. Let's call this final output of the Pure Direct mode Y.

This is not pure direct mode and you have contradicted yourself. Transforming a digital signal into an analog one is not pure direct. Like I have stipulated in my previous posts, pure direct can only be achieved through a signal path that remains wholy analog. Any DSP of any kind renders pure direct mode a misnomer.

If I take Y and feed Y to my subwoofer, is Y still a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the subwoofer?

When you use Pure Direct mode, is the pre-out signal to the amplifier a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the amplifier?

If this signal is a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the amplifier, then it is a Pure Direct signal right before it enters the subwoofer or ANYTHING else.

The only other option is that the LFE channel can either output digitally extracted bass or there is an analog filter stage that works in the analog signal path. I'm sorry AcuDefTechGuy but your explanation from a technical standpoint has many holes in it. Post the questions that I have asked you to the tech rep at Denon and lets see what they say.

My Yammy does the same thing with Digital signals as your Denon. Exact same thing. The difference however comes about when I feed my Yammy an analog input. Under pure direct, I cannot engage the sub because the signal path has remained analog.

 

[PENG]

If you can still get the subwoofer involved with an anlog signal only, then Pure Direct as Denon implements it is a misnomer. Its not Pure Direct but pseudo pure direct because of the DSP required to derive teh bass channel for the subwoofer.

On my Yamaha with anlog in, I cannot include the subwoofer. The whole signal path remains analog and that my friend is "pure Direct"

3dB, with due respect I would have to at least partially disagree with you on this simply because I don't think there are established standard definitions that AV manufacturers can follow, all those so call straight, direct, and pure direct could, and probably do mean slightly different from one another.

Take the 4308 (that I own) for instance, you could set it up such that pure direct would work like the way you describe if the input is analog. However, if the input is digital, it's setup menu offer the flexibility for you to select the subwoofer on or off. It only defines pure direct as follow:

"DIRECT :
In this mode the signals bypass the tone control circuitry for high
quality sound.
The sound is output to the same channels as the input signal.
The display when the DIRECT mode is selected depends on the input
signal.
For multi-channel sources, the display depends on the surround back
output’s play mode.

When in the PURE DIRECT mode, the GUI screen is not displayed
and the display on the main unit is turned off.
• If the HDMI input connector is selected, video outputs are output in
the PURE DIRECT mode.
• The channel level and surround parameters in the PURE DIRECT
mode are the same as in the DIRECT mode."

So if the source is digital, you have the option to use the sub even when pure direct is selected.


This is what the Yamaha RX-V1800 manual says:

"When the Pure Direct mode is
activated, this unit plays back the selected source with the
least circuitry."Note that it just says "least".

Denon says something like that too in other parts of the manual. I understand no one is saying one is better than the other, it boils down to how one wish to define pure direct. To me, direct is direct, as soon as you add another adjective such as pure, then it begs the question, what is pure, how pure, etc. That's just me, others will think differently. This subject will by nature remain controversial as no one (yet) has the authority to rule on the definition.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Transforming a digital signal into an analog one is not pure direct.

Oh, I see.

So when you BITSTREAM SACD DSD Direct it is no longer PURE DIRECT since it is DIGITAL????

So that's why ANALOG is better than DIGITAL! Gotcha.

So using the 5.1 analog inputs is better than using HDMI or DenonLink or Optical Digital since ALL DIGITAL (PCM or Bitstream) is not PURE DIRECT?

If a Player converts a digital signal to analog (DAC) and sends the analog signal to the pre-pro, then and only then it is Pure Direct?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We all understand that all DIGITAL signals have to be converted to ANALOG.

This can occur BEFORE the AVR (using the player's DAC) or INSIDE the AVR (using the AVR's DAC).

Are you telling us that using the Player's DAC is more PURE than using the AVR's DAC?

Pure Direct and Direct has NOTHING to do with DAC.

Pure Direct and Direct means that ALL TONES, EQs, & DSPs are BYPASSED.

DACs are NOT Tones, EQs, or DSPs.

So again, once the DIGITAL PURE DIRECT signal goes to the DAC in PURE DIRECT mode, the signal is now ANALOG PURE DIRECT. It has NOT gone through any Tones, EQs, or DSPs.

This analog signal, which has NOT gone through Tones, EQs, or DSPs, since DAC does NOT require Tones, EQs, or DSPs, will now go to the ANALOG output.

The Analog output is the Pre-out L/R. This goes to the External Amplifier.

This Analog output is PURE DIRECT.

This Analog output can be split into 2 sets of Analog outputs. It has not gone through any Tones, EQs, or DSPs. Thus, it is PURE DIRECT.

Now we have 2 sets of PURE DIRECT analog outputs. Both are FULL RANGE.

1 Set of analog output goes to the amp, and the 2nd analog output goes to the Sub.

 

[its phillip]

Interesting convo.

My CM8s were reviewed to lack bass a little, so I am interested in that possibility in pure direct. I don't find an issue with the bass myself though.

I just finished the initial setup of my RX-A2000! I love it! I took a pic. Please excuse the mess with wiring etc.. a lot more work to do!

Thanks again for the advice!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/PannTher/IMG_5967.jpg

Nice looking system

 

[PannTher]

Nice looking system

Thank you sir!

 

[timoteo]

Very nice system!! Nice placement too, have you tried toeing in your towers just a bit? Try aiming them right at your main seat. If you feel your system lacks a little bass then wait until you get an amp. Since the low end requires the most power, that is where avrs fall short. Id consider dual subs too. Sorry dont mean to say anything is wrong with your setup these are just things that ive read about then done & am really impressed with the outcome. I love your TV as well gotta dig the V-Series right? Ive got the tcp54v10 & cant rave more about it. Panny/Yammy/B&W make a great pack...add in your CM line &......NICE!!! Congrats!!!

 

[PannTher]

Thanks for the thoughts!

I was thinking of toeing them in a bit, but there is a couch to the right and it would affect the quality for people sitting there I think.

As you can see, I have the Mirage Omni S8 for my sub now.. that's the next thing to upgrade. I heard such amazing things about the B&W PV1, but so pricey!

What should I do for a clean deep bass sub that would match my CMs? And to have 2, hopefully not too too expensive ha ha. Although I will keep this setup for a while, so don't want to cheap out.

Thanks again so much!

 

[timoteo]

There are many good sub options!! Check out the subwoofer section on this site. Some to consider are HSU, SVS, Rythmic, Epik, Earthquake & more. There are very nice subs that start in the $500+ range. For that price you will start getting incredible bass. Consider what you will be using it for more. Music, Movies or both (prob both). Ported & passive radiator will give you more output so is recommended for cinema for the impact. Sealed will give you better transients or "tighter" bass, will go lower generally speaking but with less dBs. There is a good article in HT-mag about the difference between four 8" subs, two 12" & one 15". Great read! I went with dual 12" PR & love what theyve done to the overall quality & impact. Your room & listening habits & prefference will all play a part in what is best for you!! A bass shaker mounted in your couch is also a great fun addition. Lots of fun things you can do!

Id recommend getting a budget & either get 2 you can afford or get the best one you can with the goal of adding a second later. Once you go with dual subs youll never look back.