REVIEW: Denon AVR-4306 Receiver with HDMI

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
My comment was referring to the simple fact that a single sine wave played from a loudspeaker in a room will suffer from standing waves. So, if one happens to place the mic near a dip (or peak) the measurements will be affected. That's why it is advantageous to use more complex stimulus signals such as chirps or statistical signals such as maximum length sequences or golay codes.
All sound in small rooms suffer from standing waves :rolleyes: Using chirp tones simply masks them (it doesn't eliminate them) since they lack the resolution of conventional test tones.

All of these methods have their advantages and disadvantages, but they all perform better than single sine waves played from a CD and measured with an SPL meter.
One should never use an SPL meter to do frequency response testing since the meter itself is very nonlinear. This is why we use calibrated, high precision mics with our LMS and/or RTA based systems.
 
N

noah katz

Enthusiast
"All sound in small rooms suffer from standing waves Using chirp tones simply masks them (it doesn't eliminate them) since they lack the resolution of conventional test tones."

I wouldn't call it masking.

It takes several cycles to pump up a resonance to its full amplitude, so a short duration tone won't fully excite it.
 
A

audyssey

Enthusiast
gene said:
All sound in small rooms suffer from standing waves :rolleyes: Using chirp tones simply masks them (it doesn't eliminate them) since they lack the resolution of conventional test tones.
One should never use an SPL meter to do frequency response testing since the meter itself is very nonlinear. This is why we use calibrated, high precision mics with our LMS and/or RTA based systems.
Hi Gene,

The purpose of the test signals used is not to mask standing waves. In fact, the test signal doesn't do anything to standing waves. The signals used for measurement must be such that the impulse response of the (assumed) Linear Time Invariant (LTI) system called the room is measured as accurately as possible.

There are many factors that affect the accuracy of this measurement including background noise, whether it is correlated or not to the test signal, microphone calibration, speaker directivity, etc.

Below are some notes that I use in my graduate course at USC on audio signal processing to introduce the topic.

As you said, measuring with an SPL meter and test tones is woefully insufficient. I am well aware that Audioholics employs professional methods. Unfortunately many consumers don't have access to good equipment and try to draw conclusions from SPL meter "measurements". They should instead rely on technical reviews such as the in-depth ones found on this site for their information.

Best regards,
Chris
CTO, Audyssey Laboratories




Methods for measuring room responses

1. Maximum Length Sequence (MLS)

This method is based on cross-correlation of the signal that is measured in the room with the a pseudo-random sequence that is generated in advance. It is not a statistical, but rather a deterministic method. MLS signals perform better than pure white noise (gaussian) signals because of their binary nature that allows for very fast processing. The MLS sequence is repeated with an intervening silence signal and the average measured signal is used to deconvolve with the original sequence to obtain the room response (also applies to loudspeaker measurements). The length of the sequence must be kept sufficiently high so that time aliasing problems in the deconvolved response (arising from late reflections or long reverberation times) are minimized.

2. Sweep Signals

This method uses circular deconvolution because of the periodic nature of the test signal. A sine sweep is played through the system and then measured by the microphone. The Fourier transform of the measured signal is divided by the Fourier transform of the input signal and then the inverse Fourier transform of this ratio is taken. The result is the impulse response of the loudspeaker-room system at the point of measurement. This will, of course, vary as the microphone is moved to other locations.

An improvement to the linear sinusoidal sweep is a logarithmic sweep that provides higher signal-to-noise ratio at lower frequencies. Furthermore, a logarithmic sweep performs better than MLS because it is possible to separate the loudspeaker distortion terms from the the room response components.


Further reading:

1. Bharitkar, S. and Kyriakakis, C., "Immersive Audio Signal Processing", Springer Science, New York, NY, (2006).

2. Stan G-B, Embrechts J-J, and Archambeau D, Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, 50(2) 249-262, (2002).
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
audyssey said:
As you said, measuring with an SPL meter and test tones is woefully insufficient. I am well aware that Audioholics employs professional methods. Unfortunately many consumers don't have access to good equipment and try to draw conclusions from SPL meter "measurements". They should instead rely on technical reviews such as the in-depth ones found on this site for their information.

This room EQ measurment/setup freeware accomodates the Radio Shack SPL meter and is particularly designed for analysis and treatment of modal resonances:


http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

discussion about its use here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529224
 
C

ckg1999

Enthusiast
No HDMI output

All -
I just purchased the Denon 4306 and what a perfect receiver! I love it!
Problem: When i connect my HR10-250 to the Denon and then HDMI -> DVI to my TV, the screen is blank, with occasional flashing, like it is trying to send the video, but ont coming through. Any thoughts?
 

msk385

Audiophyte
Receiver Purchase Help/Confusion

hi...my name is mark, and I read the great review on this unit. I currently have a Pioneer 49tx...I am going to sell it, since this will be the second time in the shop. At any rate, I began looking at separates, but costs WAY too much to get similar features (and aside from Tube equipment, the higher end equipment all sounds pretty similar to me...tubes do make it "warmer", probably due to limited frequency response). I enjoy watching DVD concert's the most on the system, then vinyl second, then CD's

Anyway, I have the following setup in a 15 X 13 room:

Pioneer 730HD (DVI Connection only) - No plan on selling
Front Def Tech Speakers 7002
Def Tech center clr 3000
Niles 8 HD in ceiling rears.
ClearAudio Emotion Turntable (yes, Vinyl is still the best)
Going to buy a new DVD, not sure which one yet
Playstation 3 as soon as it comes out

I also saw the 4806 CI...is there a major difference between these two receivers? Power seems about even...Since I had the 49TX do you think that the 4306 would be a noticeable step down in terms of reserve power, and instead have to go to the 4806CI?? Any insights are greatly appreciated
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
Delays

There seems to be a "large and unanticipated demand" for these receivers according to the place where I ordered mine 4 (yes, four!) weeks ago.

According to their website, stock is due in on the 28th July +/- 1 week - but a few weeks ago that read 15th July +/- 1 week. :(

Anyone know the score on this? Is it maybe just Europe that's suffering or does the US have similar stocking problems?
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
ckg1999 said:
All -
I just purchased the Denon 4306 and what a perfect receiver! I love it!
Problem: When i connect my HR10-250 to the Denon and then HDMI -> DVI to my TV, the screen is blank, with occasional flashing, like it is trying to send the video, but ont coming through. Any thoughts?
You did not state what model TV but some displays are not as HDMI compliant as others. Denon has has a great record for conforming to the standard and being able to pass through HDMI signals with HDCP support.

Unfortunately, not all devices perform with the same consistency and I think maybe your tv is one of them. I would do a search and see if you can find anyone else with your display who is having the same problem. (these comments assume all inputs are properly connected and configured in the receiver).

Wish I had better news. Check the mfg website and see if they have more info, as well.
 
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B

Bernard L

Audioholic Intern
ckg1999 said:
All -
I just purchased the Denon 4306 and what a perfect receiver! I love it!
Problem: When i connect my HR10-250 to the Denon and then HDMI -> DVI to my TV, the screen is blank, with occasional flashing, like it is trying to send the video, but ont coming through. Any thoughts?
Forgive me if I state the obvious, but have you correctly assigned the HDMI video inputs and outputs?

I have bought a 4306 recently, and had a similar problem... I had stupidely connected the DVD player to HMDI 3 but had set the video input to HDMI 1...

Regards,
Bernard
 
Geno

Geno

Senior Audioholic
Internet radio connectivity

Bernard L said:
Forgive me if I state the obvious, but have you correctly assigned the HDMI video inputs and outputs?

I have bought a 4306 recently, and had a similar problem... I had stupidely connected the DVD player to HMDI 3 but had set the video input to HDMI 1...

Regards,
Bernard
I feel your pain...this receiver has lots of "gotchas" in it. I've been able to work through all of them except the internet radio thing. In my setup, my DSL wireless router/modem is in the opposite end of my house, so I need a wireless way to connect from the receiver to the router. I've had no luck finding the right wireless device. I'm thinking of a game controller, but haven't pursued this yet. Anyone out there have a solution?
 
B

Bernard L

Audioholic Intern
Geno said:
In my setup, my DSL wireless router/modem is in the opposite end of my house, so I need a wireless way to connect from the receiver to the router. I've had no luck finding the right wireless device. I'm thinking of a game controller, but haven't pursued this yet. Anyone out there have a solution?
I have been considering a similar set up. Perhaps something like this:

http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=118&categoryid=29

Could help you?

Regards,
Bernard
 
C

ckg1999

Enthusiast
AVRat said:
ckg1999,
It’s probably an issue with the Sat receiver not the Denon. See this thread: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21194
AVRat-

I tried only connecting my DVD player (component) to the Denon then run the HDMI -> DVI cable to the TV. This still presents a Black screen, but flashes white every once in a while. Here are some screenshots of my current Video setup from the web interface. I welcome any input to this. Thanks!
 

Attachments

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briansmith

Junior Audioholic
<<There was simply too much loss of the detail associated with the many recordings I heard to allow the Audyssey system to take control. Reference System 2 isn’t particularly bright or reflective, so why the system rolled back so many of the highs to meet Audyssey’s target curve is a mystery. It seems ever since we discovered the lack of bass correction below 100Hz in our AVR-5805 review, the Audyssey fix has tapered off the high end response while still NOT addressing bass frequencies below 100Hz adequately.>>

Chris,

Several people have now reported a loss of bass when using Audyssey despite the "fix". Since the reviewer went to great lengths to ensure proper mic positiong what would you say is the reason that the reviewer is experiencing rolled off highs and lows? I too experienced the same thing as the reviewer on an early 5805 (i.e. no eq below 100, collapsed soundstage, rolled of highs). I have another 5805 coming but it appears that I may end up having the same problems. Any ideas as to why people are reporting rolled off highs and lows?

Brian
 
C

ckg1999

Enthusiast
Anyone see anything I should try in my previous post regarding signal setup? Just a little frustrating...
 
A

audyssey

Enthusiast
briansmith said:
Chris,

Several people have now reported a loss of bass when using Audyssey despite the "fix". Since the reviewer went to great lengths to ensure proper mic positiong what would you say is the reason that the reviewer is experiencing rolled off highs and lows? I too experienced the same thing as the reviewer on an early 5805 (i.e. no eq below 100, collapsed soundstage, rolled of highs). I have another 5805 coming but it appears that I may end up having the same problems. Any ideas as to why people are reporting rolled off highs and lows?

Brian
Hi Brian,

I recently spent some time at Audioholics and we confirmed that the 5805 is running MultEQ exactly it should. Gene will likely report on our adventures in future writings, but we took some data in Gene's new amazing room that show the 5805 correcting down to nearly 20 Hz.

As I said before, I believe that the lack of bass issue is due to the default setting of Large vs. Small. While the intent behind that definition is a good one, it can get us into trouble if it is followed blindly. The definition is: "call anything that plays below 80 Hz a Large speaker". Many front speakers go down to, say, 60 Hz and are called Large by default. That means that all the bass is lost unless you set them to Small manually.

We have pointed this out to Denon and they are considering making some changes to their default settings. In any case, it's a pretty simple fix.

As for the high frequencies, the Audyssey curve introduces a roll-off to take into account the changes in directivity that occur and also the difference in direct-to-reverberant energy between a theater and a home theater. We recommend the Audyssey curve for movies only and only if you are not in THX mode. For THX mode, we recommend on Flat so that the THX re-eq can work as intended. For music there are no standards in the industry so we recommend starting with Flat (no roll-off).

I hope this addresses the issues. I would be curious to hear how things work out.

Best regards,
Chris
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
audyssey said:
Hi Brian,

I recently spent some time at Audioholics and we confirmed that the 5805 is running MultEQ exactly it should. Gene will likely report on our adventures in future writings, but we took some data in Gene's new amazing room that show the 5805 correcting down to nearly 20 Hz.

As I said before, I believe that the lack of bass issue is due to the default setting of Large vs. Small. While the intent behind that definition is a good one, it can get us into trouble if it is followed blindly. The definition is: "call anything that plays below 80 Hz a Large speaker". Many front speakers go down to, say, 60 Hz and are called Large by default. That means that all the bass is lost unless you set them to Small manually.

We have pointed this out to Denon and they are considering making some changes to their default settings. In any case, it's a pretty simple fix.

As for the high frequencies, the Audyssey curve introduces a roll-off to take into account the changes in directivity that occur and also the difference in direct-to-reverberant energy between a theater and a home theater. We recommend the Audyssey curve for movies only and only if you are not in THX mode. For THX mode, we recommend on Flat so that the THX re-eq can work as intended. For music there are no standards in the industry so we recommend starting with Flat (no roll-off).

I hope this addresses the issues. I would be curious to hear how things work out.

Best regards,
Chris
Just to add to Chris's post. After much trial and error and PMs to Chris the ultimate setup process for me was straightforward:

Run AutoEQ and let Audyssey do it's thing (also for me REMEMBER TO HAVE THE MICRAPHONE POINTED TOWARDS THE CEILING!).

Afterwards go into my settings and change all speakers to small.

Set all the crossovers to 80Hz.

Tweak the sub a bit for my taste.

Then I am done. The most noticeable improvement for me was a seamless sound stage across the front.

Nick
 
B

briansmith

Junior Audioholic
Nick250 said:
Just to add to Chris's post. After much trial and error and PMs to Chris the ultimate setup process for me was straightforward:

Run AutoEQ and let Audyssey do it's thing (also for me REMEMBER TO HAVE THE MICRAPHONE POINTED TOWARDS THE CEILING!).

Afterwards go into my settings and change all speakers to small.

Set all the crossovers to 80Hz.

Tweak the sub a bit for my taste.

Then I am done. The most noticeable improvement for me was a seamless sound stage across the front.

Nick

Most people are setting their speakers to Small, setting the crossover at 80hz, and aiming the microphone upwards as this is a fairly standard procedure w/ all receivers.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
briansmith said:
Most people are setting their speakers to Small, setting the crossover at 80hz, and aiming the microphone upwards as this is a fairly standard procedure w/ all receivers.
Of course it is. But all receivers do not have Audyssey Auto EQ. Audyssey tells you to leave things as exactly they are after it does it's thing. So it needs to be pointed out that you have to NOT FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS ON THAT PART.

Also, sound pressure meters I have seen, RS, you point them at the speaker not the ceiling. I can't find the manual so somebody jump in here to tell me if I am mistaken.

Does that clear up why I wrote the previous post?

Nick
 

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