revel ultima salon2 vs focal sopra no. 2

[Audiot]

What sub did you get?

I found the best way to integrate a sub with the Salon2s is to run the Salon2s full-range, measure the resulting bass response with a tool like OmniMic, and then use the parametric equalization capabilities of the sub to fill in the room response gaps.

Yeah, that's how it has worked out for me as well with one of my subs. I have two different sealed units, one of which I'll probably sell at some point, possibly buy a second of the other. They're different sounding, each being better at some things than the other.

I used REW to model the room, SMAART to measure the results and my ears to apply the final level adjustments. I tried finding the right place to cut (with eq) by ear but the results were better when I broke down and deployed the science. I run the mains full range with the sub's low pass set at 30Hz. One of my subs aligns/tunes and eqs itself and came with a calibrated mic. With the other I've used its PEQ, room compensation, etc but it took me some time to find a working combination. Modeling the room helped, measuring it helped some more.

I've considered 'uping' the whole package with a crossover since neither of the subs I have at hand include a high pass filter but I've managed to wring a satisfactorily smooth transition out of both of them, albeit one was considerably easier to integrate than the other. I'm still considering a true crossover but I'm satisfied for now. Anyway, I'm hearing some noise from the gallery (she's a gallery of one) about my lavish hobby, so it's time to take a breather and enjoy what I've cobbled together so far.

 

[Audiot]

What sub did you get?

Sorry, didn't answer that. I have a JLA F113v2. I'm also playing with the newly released SVS SB16.
I had initial difficulty with the SVS but the JL slotted right in with a minimum of sweat. However, I've been working with the SB16 after I realized it required that I make the time to align and integrate it properly (measure and model the room) and the latest results have been encouraging. Knowing this, you can plug my comments into the post above now and figure out which is which.

Bottom line, since I got serious about integrating the SVS, it's performance is much more satisfying. It digs a little deeper than the JL but took more effort to get tuned. It's a good sub especially for the money. The JL is very tuneful, still has a bit more 'definition' of bass tone, but of course that's somewhat subjective. I'm continuing to play with both them to see what I can learn about my room and my devices. I can return the SVS in the next three weeks or so, but the JL is mine for keeps.
If I end up liking the SVS better, I'd probably want to sell the JL. I have not come to that point as yet though.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I run the mains full range with the sub's low pass set at 30Hz.

I suggest changing the low-pass filter to 100Hz, and using PEQs to cut what you don't need, output-wise, to achieve a flat response (actually, a slightly rising response, like +3-4db at 30Hz) at your listening seat. For piano you want that 80-160Hz octave to be just right. If your subs have adjustable slopes, you might try both 12db or 18db/octave options.

[note edits for clarity]

 

[Audiot]

^^^That flies in the face of my experience and the advice I've been given by both manufacturers of these devices. I've tried higher low pass settings and things turn to mush in the room right quick. Above 40Hz it's natively unpleasant. Also, it seems unintuitive although intuition and audio don't always mix.

However I'll be running sweeps this weekend. It's not a big deal to do as you suggest, especially with the JL which will automatically adjust its 18 bands of eq to whatever it hears through the mic. I may give it a try and report back. I'm not above taking advice or trying new things and I certainly have been wrong before.

I'll let you know what I learn, Irv.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Interesting that you bring up DEQX. I tried a DEQX pre-amp (on loan from a local dealer) in my system before I went down the subwoofer route, and it didn't require replacing the crossovers. (A member on this forum highly recommended their products.) The DEQX is a fascinating (though expensive) product. In the end I chose a sub solution, because it couldn't solve my bass issues, and I didn't have upper octave complaints, but the DEQX might very well work interesting results with the B&Ws.

For equalisation, DEQX are excellent, but still subject to limitations.

With the higher end DEQX products you can use the individual outputs and go fully DSP active, and that's when they become very powerful tools.

Driving speakers such as B&W's, that would provide the user with control over the crossover frequencies and filter slopes, as well as time alignment between drive units, which then also makes it possible to adjust beam tilt for phase and time alignment at the listening position - including compensation for the height of the sofa etc.

B&W chose a slightly odd crossover design for the mid-treble with their 800Dx series. The tweeter should be wired out of phase but instead it's moved forward in the array by an amount that's equal to 180 degrees. This achieves phase coherence at the crossover frequency but it's a different story as you move up or down from there, which is why there's a slight measurable dip in the response at 6-7kHz and 2kHz. It also makes vertical axis response a little more uneven. The slight trade-off was to ensure better transient response and 'absolute' phase.

With a DEQX though, it would be possible to completely eliminate the trade-offs, which also includes time alignment and off-axis / power response. (I would probably move the mid-tweeter crossover down to about 2.5kHz)

DEQX is obviously expensive but I think we'll start to see much cheaper options available in the future.

 

[Irvrobinson]

^^^That flies in the face of my experience and the advice I've been given by both manufacturers of these devices. I've tried higher low pass settings and things turn to mush in the room right quick. Above 40Hz it's natively unpleasant. Also, it seems unintuitive although intuition and audio don't always mix.

However I'll be running sweeps this weekend. It's not a big deal to do as you suggest, especially with the JL which will automatically adjust its 18 bands of eq to whatever it hears through the mic. I may give it a try and report back. I'm not above taking advice or trying new things and I certainly have been wrong before.

I'll let you know what I learn, Irv.

I know, what I tried was not recommended by the dealer or my sub manufacturer (Velodyne) either. Sometimes you have to use intuition and guess, and I got lucky. It may or may not work for you.

 

[<eargiant]

No, you're just chasing "sounds good" rather than accuracy.

Ehhh, whatever.

Who knows? Maybe you’re the one guy with “THE” accurate set-up. I’ve auditioned a lot of systems that interested parties (private owners/ manufacturers/ designers/ measurement buffs/ forum experts/ etc., etc.) all claimed to be the last word in accuracy with stats to prove it. The funny thing is that they all sounded differently.

So will the real "accurate" speaker please stand-up?

"...ultimately failing to convey the musicality of the score"? Take a breath and think about that statement for a moment. I know silly magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute Sound have popularized talking like that, but, remember, these are the same fools that think well-designed cables sound different.

Sorry, you’re mistaken. I’m not THAT guy, far from it. I’m not silly nor am I parroting what you think I read in a magazine. I don’t believe half the stuff in the audio rags just as I don’t believe in half the stuff I read posted by participants in online forums.

One thing I do believe is that if you failed to understand what I was referring to when you asked me to “Take a breath and think about that statement for a moment” you have lost sight of what this hobby is all about or we are clearly in it for different reasons.

I recently heard (for the first time in my life) Chuck Mangione’s “Children of Sanchez” not my typical music style but it blew me away. Everything sounded so real and involving that the hairs on the back of my neck stood on end. To paraphrase Dr. Mark Waldrep, everything in that recording was laid out before me. The realism of the brass, strings, bass, cymbals - ahh heck it was enthralling all the way down to the drum skins. What a pleasure to listen to. You might want to sit down now because here comes the crazy talk you don’t like… it was like an endorphin. If my foot is tapping and my head is bobbing like a fool when I listen to music, I know I am close to my goal. This means it has connected with me in a way no chart can begin to describe. That's why I'm into this hobby. I want to hear myself mumble "Darn, that was good!" as I shake my head in astonishment after a listening session as I have often caught myself doing.

BTW, that song lost its musical impact and realism when I played it on another set of speakers that supposedly measure almost perfectly (some capture it, some don't regardless of whether or not they're flat-line "accurate"). The life, realism and emotion was gone. The song bored me. I doubt I would have been bored to tears had I been in the studio when they recorded it. So much for accuracy…

My advice to anyone out there, listen to as many speakers as you can, visit every audio boutique/retailer you can find within a 100 mile radius of your home, attend any audio shows that take place near you, get on retailers mailing lists so that you can get invites to special events they host. Funny side note: last week I was looking at an audio retailers website and lo and behold there I was! Then I realized the pictures were taken at the intimate NYC unveiling they held for the new Technics Reference Class, Premium Class and of course the SL-1200GAE Turntable.

If you look closely you can probably spot Kal Rubinson (Stereophile), Steve Guttenberg (CNet/Audiophilliac), Mike Trei (Sound & Vision) but more importantly, can you spot Mr. Less-Than (<) Eargiant? Hint: I'm the good looking one

http://adkav.com/nyc/

BTW Irv, Kal Rubinson loves the 800 series too.


Listen more & read less folks.

Skypickle, narrow it down and choose the one you think will work best for you. Try to arrange a home audition which will be ideal. Most dealers will be open to that as long as they know you are serious. Finally, be prepared to sell and try something else if whatever you buy doesn't push all the right buttons for you. Only your ears will know what makes you happy.

Sorry for the long post. Now I'm going to take my own advice and go listen to some music.

Happy Holidays everyone!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Who knows? Maybe you’re the one guy with “THE” accurate set-up. I’ve auditioned a lot of systems that interested parties (private owners/ manufacturers/ designers/ measurement buffs/ forum experts/ etc., etc.) all claimed to be the last word in accuracy with stats to prove it. The funny thing is that they all sounded differently.

So will the real "accurate" speaker please stand-up?

Heh, heh... no. There's a big difference between chasing and achievement, and I only use my own crude (and potentially misinterpreted) measurements as a guide for my own tuning (with speaker and listening seat positioning, sub matching, etc). I agree with you, anyone who thinks their in room measurements say anything definitive is probably mistaken. I consider in-room measurements potentially useful hints, not necessarily proof of anything. Still, it is nice to have hints, since sounds waves are invisible. (It is a virtual reality app dream I've had for a few years; goggles/glasses that make sound waves visible. I wish I was smart enough to create it.)

And just so we're on the same page, I don't consider myself a "forum expert", just a forum discusser. There are a few experts that post here, very few. Most of us are just discussers, exchanging experiences and opinions.

 

[PENG]

Lucky me, I'll never have to concern myself with those deficiencies of the 800D3 series. Their price assures I won't be an owner by buying them, and my rotten reputation assures no one will gift me a pair.

I think lots of those remarks about slightly bright due to this and that are mostly Placebo effects. I highly doubt people without golden ears can single out and hear that 0.5 dB dip in certain frequencies when listening to real music especially pops and jazz that engaged so much artificial processing involving so much electronics (including mics) from recording through mastering.

 

[KenM10759]

I never want to have ears so critical of sound quality that they prevent me from enjoying music.

 

[Audiot]

I know, what I tried was not recommended by the dealer or my sub manufacturer (Velodyne) either. Sometimes you have to use intuition and guess, and I got lucky. It may or may not work for you.

I tried 100Hz last night and it was a failure no matter how I tried to tune it (by ear). However, by backing off to 45Hz I got more slam in the chest without unduly destroying tone (this using the SVS). I played with the parametric eq to see if I could clean up a bit of overhang/bloat that I don't get with a lower setting but was not able to ring that out by ear. For people who just love bass the 45Hz alignment probably would be preferred, but for me a lower hinge point seems more satisfying for most mterial. What this has shown me though is that it's possible to raise the low pass up to an octave higher with this particular sub without having it fall apart while gaining some slam if that's preferred.

I'd say we've met in the middle. I'll try the same sort of settings with the JL and see how its DARO tuning program works at that hinge point. It could be just the trick. Screwing around with subs is fun, enlightening and some heavy lifting.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The problem is, you can't tune it by ear alone. You need to measure at your listening seat, and at 100Hz you'll be creating multiple considerable (15db+) dips in the sub's response. Agreed that by ear all you'll end up with is fat bass. Your ears are just for verification that you did the tuning right.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm not so sure I should recommend buying Revel speakers any longer. Their marketing people can't tell the difference between a tweeter and a midrange driver by looking at them. Sigh.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/revel-ultima2.html

 

[MrBoat]

I never want to have ears so critical of sound quality that they prevent me from enjoying music.

I agree with this. . . . personally.

I have a friend (a few actually) who is critically in touch with the seemingly perpetually evasive values of perfect audio. He built a grand home with a rather extravagant media room, sound proofed from the rest of the house because his wife is not crazy about music or movies and she is an occasional migraine sufferer. So, he's been auditioning expensive speakers on and off, some of which cost over 30 grand a pair, with trying to find acoustic bliss.

He asked me what I thought (obviously for my laymen's perspective). I said, if it were me and it mattered that much and starting with a clean slate like he did, I would have given the $30k to the architect instead to design a perfect acoustic shaped room, to where $2k speakers, or even my crappy JBL's would have automatically sounded perfect in there from there on out.

I could not do it halfway, or depend on speakers or afterthought acoustic room treatments. I would get the feeling I was paying for hat tricks or illusions after the fact. That would haunt me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think lots of those remarks about slightly bright due to this and that are mostly Placebo effects. I highly doubt people without golden ears can single out and hear that 0.5 dB dip in certain frequencies when listening to real music especially pops and jazz that engaged so much artificial processing involving so much electronics (including mics) from recording through mastering.

Oh, hey, don't be jealous just because you don't have giant golden ears.

Or if you can't hear the exact musical notes by ear.

In a good sound-acoustic room, a lot of speakers will sound great, especially when the sound is full-sounding (either full-range towers or speakers + subwoofers).

And if the speakers sound great, does it really matter that much if they sound different?

Every great grand piano, violin, guitar, etc. sounds different.

 

[Irvrobinson]

And if the speakers sound great, does it really matter that much if they sound different?

Yes, because that means they're coloring every recording in the same way. So you want speakers that color the sound as little as possible.

Every great grand piano, violin, guitar, etc. sounds different.

Andy, really, you know full well that musical instruments sound different because they are mechanical devices that produce harmonics by design, and it is the harmonics that make them sound different. (Middle C is 261.6Hz on every instrument (in tune) that can play it.) This is not a good argument for why it's okay for speakers to sound different.

 

[moves]

I think lots of those remarks about slightly bright due to this and that are mostly Placebo effects. I highly doubt people without golden ears can single out and hear that 0.5 dB dip in certain frequencies when listening to real music especially pops and jazz that engaged so much artificial processing involving so much electronics (including mics) from recording through mastering.

Nope... ear pain more like it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, because that means they're coloring every recording in the same way. So you want speakers that color the sound as little as possible.



Andy, really, you know full well that musical instruments sound different because they are mechanical devices that produce harmonics by design, and it is the harmonics that make them sound different. (Middle C is 261.6Hz on every instrument (in tune) that can play it.) This is not a good argument for why it's okay for speakers to sound different.

But how do you know that your speakers are actually producing the EXACT same sound as the ORIGINAL instruments BEFORE it was recorded?

Anybody could say that the sound from their speakers SOUNDS exactly like their PERSONAL home recordings.

And just because your drums seem to sound exactly like the real drums doesn't mean every instrument will automatically sound exactly like the real instruments.

There are too many variables to claim that your speakers are capable of reproducing every single live instrument exactly.

My point is that I'm not losing any sleep over a few insignificant different sounds.

If they sound great and I love it and enjoy it and they sound like real life 95%, that's good.

I'm not going to worry that it's not 100% real life.

If someone likes the sound of the B&W 800D over the Salon2, then they will buy the B&W because it actually sounds more like REAL LIFE to them, not because they like COLORED INACCURATE sound. It is a matter of OPINION when someone says that they think one speaker sounds more like real life than another speaker.

 

[shadyJ]

If you really want to know that your speakers are reproducing the content accurately, you would need to record something, than play that recording back on the speakers and record that. If the two recorded wave forms are identical, you have accurate speakers.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If you really want to know that your speakers are reproducing the content accurately, you would need to record something, than play that recording back on the speakers and record that. If the two recorded wave forms are identical, you have accurate speakers.

That won't work as well as you think, because you'll have the room acoustics recorded multiple times, additively. It even mars my live recordings. On some instruments, a cymbal, for example, you can definitely hear the room and the effects of recording.