Receiver that can run mains as Large with subs natively?

[MalVeauX]

Hey all,

Are today's modern receivers able to run the mains (or all channels) as large (full range) with subs blended natively yet? All my previous receivers have required the speakers to be set to small and crossover to use subs in multi-channel audio. Or is this still a limit? Sometimes I like to not run my subs at all and just run the mains (often stereo only even) and would like them to run full range whether I use a sub or not, without having to constantly reconfigure the settings on the receiver just to cycle back and forth.

Very best,

 

[PENG]

Hey all,

Are today's modern receivers able to run the mains (or all channels) as large (full range) with subs blended natively yet? All my previous receivers have required the speakers to be set to small and crossover to use subs in multi-channel audio. Or is this still a limit? Sometimes I like to not run my subs at all and just run the mains (often stereo only even) and would like them to run full range whether I use a sub or not, without having to constantly reconfigure the settings on the receiver just to cycle back and forth.

Very best,

It depends, obviously, on you speakers (sensitivity, impedance, phase angles etc.), seating distance and your spl requirements. Setting mains to small is almost always better even if they are specified as full range. There are plenty of articles written on this topic, even right here on Audioholics.com. Obviously this won't apply to you if you don't want to match your mains with a capable sub.

 

[Swerd]

Are today's modern receivers able to run the mains (or all channels) as large (full range) with subs blended natively yet? All my previous receivers have required the speakers to be set to small and crossover to use subs in multi-channel audio. Or is this still a limit? Sometimes I like to not run my subs at all and just run the mains (often stereo only even) and would like them to run full range whether I use a sub or not, without having to constantly reconfigure the settings on the receiver just to cycle back and forth.

I've owned three AVRs over the years, and all of them allowed independent choices for large or small playback on front speakers, and using or not using a sub woofer. My present AVR is a Denon AVR-X4500H.

 

[MalVeauX]

It depends, obviously, on you speakers (sensitivity, impedance, phase angles etc.), seating distance and your spl requirements. Setting mains to small is almost always better even if they are specified as full range. There are plenty of articles written on this topic, even right here on Audioholics.com. Obviously this won't apply to you if you don't want to match your mains with a capable sub.

Right; thanks, I know the difference between small/large and how that works for sub crossover. What I'm digging at is looking for the ability to potentially run just the mains at full range, with subs, in multi-channel but also being able to simply turn the subs off and listen in stereo with the mains operating full range, without having to do several menu steps to re-configure. I think modern AVR's can do something similar to this now, but just wasn't sure which ones at a starting point can do it. Such as run all speakers as small except the front L/R (maybe even C) set to large and still have sub (with a low cross over), so that if I turn off the subs, the L/R/C still operate full range.

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

I've owned three AVRs over the years, and all of them allowed independent choices for large or small playback on front speakers, and using or not using a sub woofer. My present AVR is a Denon AVR-X4500H.

Thanks, yea all my receivers up to now are older so when you set speakers to large, the sub option generally greys out in the menu and if you set to small and turn off the sub, it will not operate full range of course. I just don't know at what tech point things expanded so I know what to look at as a minimum starting point to have more options for running speakers full range with and without subs in both multi-channel and stereo without having to constantly fiddle in the menu to re-configure. I'd like to be able to just power on the sub or not and always get full range from the mains. Maybe this is lazy and doesn't exist?

Very best,

 

[Swerd]

Thanks, yea all my receivers up to now are older so when you set speakers to large, the sub option generally greys out in the menu and if you set to small and turn off the sub, it will not operate full range of course. I just don't know at what tech point things expanded so I know what to look at as a minimum starting point to have more options for running speakers full range with and without subs in both multi-channel and stereo without having to constantly fiddle in the menu to re-configure. I'd like to be able to just power on the sub or not and always get full range from the mains. Maybe this is lazy and doesn't exist?

When you asked this, I had to look it up in my present AVR's manual before answering. For my past AVRs, I was fairly sure I could make those choices independently. Those were a mid-priced Denon AVR-1600 (bought in 2000) and a B&K AVR 507 (bought used in 2010).

I never made this feature a shopping point when choosing an AVR, so I don't know how easy it would be to find out this info before buying. You probably won't know without downloading & reading a lot of owner's manuals.

 

[MalVeauX]

When you asked this, I had to look it up in my present AVR's manual before answering. For my past AVRs, I was fairly sure I could make those choices independently. Those were a mid-priced Denon AVR-1600 (bought in 2000) and a B&K AVR 507 (bought used in 2010).

I never made this feature a shopping point when choosing an AVR, so I don't know how easy it would be to find out this info before buying. You probably won't know without downloading & reading a lot of owner's manuals.

All good, that's why I was asking as it wasn't a clear option in several manuals that I was looking at. So figured maybe this was a quiet change over the past two decades and maybe only an option for some higher tier models or not.

Very best,

 

[PENG]

Right; thanks, I know the difference between small/large and how that works for sub crossover.

Sorry I was too quick missed your real question.

I just don't know at what tech point things expanded so I know what to look at as a minimum starting point to have more options for running speakers full range with and without subs in both multi-channel and stereo without having to constantly fiddle in the menu to re-configure.

I am not sure if I understand the question this time, I think you want to know since when did AVRs have such features. If that's the case, it is hard to know without looking through the older models owner's manuals. I do know even my very old (2004?) Denon AVR-3805 can set the front speakers to large and the surrounds to small.

 

[MalVeauX]

Sorry I was too quick missed your real question.



I am not sure if I understand the question this time, I think you want to know since when did AVRs have such features. If that's the case, it is hard to know without looking through the older models owner's manuals. I do know even my very old (2004?) Denon AVR-3805 can set the front speakers to large and the surrounds to small.

No worries, thanks. It's hard to work properly.

Basically looking for a mid-tier AVR that can have the mains set to large (full range) and still use the subs if they're on, when set to multi-channel and/or stereo modes.

I'm asking since a lot of older receivers or lower tier receivers that are modern even can't seem to do this, as soon as any speaker is set to large, the sub option greys out of menu or isn't an option at all, unless speakers are set to small.

So maybe this feature is already there, just only on mid-tier or top-tier models even if they're older perhaps. I just wasn't sure if there was a time period where this became a common option.

Very best,

 

[Trebdp83]

Different manufacturers have different settings for using the SUB with FRONT set at LARGE. If using a Denon/Marantz with FRONT set at LARGE, the SUB must be set to LFE+MAIN. If using an Onkyo/Pioneer, the "DOUBLE BASS" setting must be turned ON with FRONT set at LARGE to send a signal to the SUB. If using a Yamaha with FRONT set at LARGE, the "EXTRA BASS" feature must be turned ON to get a signal to the SUB. Never use "EXTRA BASS" with FRONT speakers set at SMALL as it adds a bass boost to all channels compared to the low frequency duplication when FRONT speakers are set at LARGE.

Keep in mind that using ALL CHANNEL STEREO mode in a low/mid tier receiver while setting all speakers at LARGE will result in that receiver running quite hot. Also, if speakers are set to SMALL, changing the mode to PURE AUDIO, PURE DIRECT and DIRECT will result in two channel audio being sent to the FRONT speakers in full range regardless of the SMALL setting. However, a signal will not be sent to the SUB while playing a two channel signal in those modes. Though, a signal would be sent to the SUB in STEREO and ALL CHANNEL STEREO modes with speakers set at LARGE with the proper SUB/BASS setting in the receiver.

 

[MalVeauX]

Different manufacturers have different settings for using the SUB with FRONT set at LARGE. If using a Denon/Marantz with FRONT set at LARGE, the SUB must be set to LFE+MAIN. If using an Onkyo/Pioneer, the "DOUBLE BASS" setting must be turned ON with FRONT set at LARGE to send a signal to the SUB. If using a Yamaha with FRONT set at LARGE, the "EXTRA BASS" feature must be turned ON to get a signal to the SUB. Never use "EXTRA BASS" with FRONT speakers set at SMALL as it adds a bass boost to all channels compared to the low frequency duplication when FRONT speakers are set at LARGE.

Keep in mind that using ALL CHANNEL STEREO mode in a low/mid tier receiver while setting all speakers at LARGE will result in that receiver running quite hot. Also, if speakers are set to SMALL, changing the mode to PURE AUDIO, PURE DIRECT and DIRECT will result in two channel audio being sent to the FRONT speakers in full range regardless of the SMALL setting. However, a signal will not be sent to the SUB while playing a two channel signal in those modes. Though, a signal would be sent to the SUB in STEREO and ALL CHANNEL STEREO modes with speakers set at LARGE with the proper SUB/BASS setting in the receiver.

Thanks, yea the terminology is all over, sure wish there was a better way to word it for a standard.

I tend to favor Yamaha in general with receivers just for sound and overall quality. I was looking to pick up maybe a refurbished RX-A1080 and was reading the manual and it doesn't seem to explicitly state that I can run the mains as full range with and without subs also running in both multi-channel modes and just stereo mode (not expanded stereo or multi-channel stereo, but just basic stereo). I'd prefer the mains (L, R and even C if possible) to run full range for movies with a low cross over and the rest can all be small (surrounds). For stereo listening, I'd like the mains to be full range and be able to have the subs on or off and it not require a bunch of configuration changes or fancy modes to do that. Maybe this is not possible though. Or maybe a refurbished Marantz SR5015.

Very best,

 

[Trebdp83]

I don't want to call Yamaha manuals awful, but they are awful. Keep in mind that the crossover is applicable only to speakers set at SMALL. LARGE speakers will receive a full signal. This is why the SUB is cut out when FRONT speakers are set at LARGE. To get the SUB in the mix with LARGE speakers, one must turn on "EXTRA BASS" in Yamaha receivers. The sound mode matters not in this case except when playing a two channel track in PURE DIRECT mode in a Yamaha as that will result in sound being sent only to the FRONT speakers. Switch to STRAIGHT, STEREO or ALL CHANNEL STEREO mode with the same two channel track and the SUB will come on when speakers are set at LARGE as long as "EXTRA BASS" is on.

 

[MalVeauX]

I don't want to call Yamaha manuals awful, but they are awful. Keep in mind that the crossover is applicable only to speakers set at SMALL. LARGE speakers will receive a full signal. This is why the SUB is cut out when FRONT speakers are set at LARGE. To get the SUB in the mix with LARGE speakers, one must turn on "EXTRA BASS" in Yamaha receivers. The sound mode matters not in this case except when playing a two channel track in PURE DIRECT mode in a Yamaha as that will result in sound being sent only to the FRONT speakers. Switch to STRAIGHT, STEREO or ALL CHANNEL STEREO mode with the same two channel track and the SUB will come on when speakers are set at LARGE as long as "EXTRA BASS" is on.

Thanks, it is confusing when it comes to the modes, though I do understand pure stereo shouldn't have a sub out bass management involvement, and I can go with that too, I often don't want subs and just my mains for most music genres (especially 70's+ rock for me).

Granted most of my music listening is done on my dedicated stereo setup with an integrated amplifier and a DAC, so I'm less concerned with that.

Most of this is really focusing, or I should say it is, on home theater purpose with respect to the receiver in the context of looking for a mid-tier AVR that can run the mains as full range speakers and still have subs if I want them on and yet still enjoy full range on the mains even if I turn of the subs.

Very best,

 

[Trebdp83]

Any mid level and up receiver will do what you are trying to do. Go with the RX-A1080 and you will need to turn "EXTRA BASS" on after setting FRONT speakers at LARGE. This will result in an active SUB in all modes other than PURE DIRECT. While you will not be able to use the crossover for LARGE speakers, you can still use the EQ using the YPAO settings or set it manually.

Now, one issue when using PURE DIRECT mode is that tone control and EQ are disabled and you get what you get with only volume control being available you. If you want to apply tone control and EQ, you must go to STRAIGHT or STEREO mode and then turn off "EXTRA BASS" if you do not want the SUB in the mix with the speakers set at LARGE.

Some integrate their capable towers with AVRs and set them at SMALL because they play movie tracks as well as music tracks. Using them at LARGE without a SUB while playing music may not be an issue. But, use them at LARGE with some movie tracks and look out. You want a capable SUB handling those very low frequencies with the other speakers set at SMALL.

 

[MalVeauX]

Any mid level and up receiver will do what you are trying to do. Go with the RX-A1080 and you will need to turn "EXTRA BASS" on after setting FRONT speakers at LARGE. This will result in an active SUB in all modes other than PURE DIRECT. While you will not be able to use the crossover for LARGE speakers, you can still use the EQ using the YPAO settings or set it manually.

Now, one issue when using PURE DIRECT mode is that tone control and EQ are disabled and you get what you get with only volume control being available you. If you want to apply tone control and EQ, you must go to STRAIGHT or STEREO mode and then turn off "EXTRA BASS" if you do not want the SUB in the mix with the speakers set at LARGE.

Some integrate their capable towers with AVRs and set them at SMALL because they play movie tracks as well as music tracks. Using them at LARGE without a SUB while playing music may not be an issue. But, use them at LARGE with some movie tracks and look out. You want a capable SUB handling those very low frequencies with the other speakers set at SMALL.

Thanks for the detailed reply! Perhaps the A1080 is the way to go then. The other I was considering is the Marantz SR5015 for basically the same thing but to get the room correction that it has. Both have pre-amp out and plenty of power for my room that I'm planning this for (building a house, gonna convert the attached garage to a finished 2nd living room and it will be a dedicated theater/game room).

Very best,

 

[Trebdp83]

Some will say go with the Marantz. Some will say go for the Yamaha. They have very different setup menu systems and music streaming service features. Those are a matter of preference. Think about the kind of power, audio/video processing and music playback formats and avenues you need for yourself and choose based on those needs.

Marantz SR5015 vs Yamaha RX-A1080: Comprehensive Comparison

Compare the Marantz SR5015 and Yamaha RX-A1080. Discover the differences in features, specs, performance, and find out which A/V receiver is the best for you.

www.zkelectronics.com

 

[MalVeauX]

Some will say go with the Marantz. Some will say go for the Yamaha. They have very different setup menu systems and music streaming service features. Those are a matter of preference. Think about the kind of power, processing and music playback formats you need for yourself and choose based on those needs.

Marantz SR5015 vs Yamaha RX-A1080: Comprehensive Comparison

Compare the Marantz SR5015 and Yamaha RX-A1080. Discover the differences in features, specs, performance, and find out which A/V receiver is the best for you.

www.zkelectronics.com

Thanks; I have a couple Yamahas and have had Denon, but not a Marantz. I've done Pioneer and Onkyo, several each. Ultimately I seem to prefer the results of the Yamahas over them all. I had an Onkyo that when set to direct literally was masking the treble compared to using another AVR and compared to a basic stereo amp setup. Maybe it was just that particular unit. I really don't stream anything other than Netflix/Prime/Hulu and its mostly shows. I still use DVD's, I don't even have Blurays. Almost any content fed to the system is stereo or AC3 5.1 and that's it. I don't really care about Atmos or surround mixing because I don't have any content for that and I live rural so I'm not planning on getting into heavy streaming of it. The room will be for watching DVD movies or stream shows and play games (we have a Steam PC and play coop games). I could live with a basic 5.1 receiver probably with lower power. I have a few of those already. I was just thinking of getting something better for this and maybe pay a bit more to get pre-amp out so I can potentially use separate amps at some point (just room to play).

Very best,

 

[Trebdp83]

It is difficult to coordinate current needs and future proofing these days when considering any budget restraints. Either of the receivers mentioned will get the job done for you based on your current needs. Get into 4K HDR @120Hz gaming and things get more complicated for AVRs and TVs.

 

[MalVeauX]

It is difficult to coordinate current needs and future proofing these days when considering any budget restraints. Either of the receivers mentioned will get the job done for you based on your current needs. Get into 4K HDR @120Hz gaming and things get more complicated for AVRs and TVs.

Indeed, thanks. Yea I'm not worried about 4k, HDR, 120hz gaming. That's why I'm just rummaging the refurbished mid-tier stuff that is yesteryear for now.

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

Hrm,

Looking at the 1080 vs the 5015, the 5015 has the bigger power supply, otherwise, similar features for my purpose. So maybe the 5015 is the better choice?

My mains are around 90db sensitive (3 x identical towers) and my surrounds are a bit less at 88~89db or so (bookshelf) and the room size is going to be what a double garage usually is, but finished as a living room (a 2nd living room dedicated to audio), so around 24 feet x 18~22 feet depending on finalized options and I'll wire the walls. So shouldn't be a challenging room, a rectangle, 8~12 feet listening position distance. So I don't think I need much power to get loud. 90db sensitivity near a wall, single speaker, 12 feet to listening position will hit around 101db SPL at 100 watts as a peak, so maybe a bit more with several speakers and some room gain. Plenty loud, though would like more headroom for transient peaks (not hitting THX spec unless I move seating closer). 8 feet puts me at 105db. But that's assuming a lot of things. So, I won't be able to push past that without going discreet on amps anyways and it would have to be at least 200 watts just to get +3db, so I'm not going to stress that.

Very best,