F fmw Audioholic Ninja Jul 5, 2007 3,002 0 83 Jan 23, 2008 #21 Soundman said: The point is that by not driving it as hard, it will give you better, cleaner sound. Click to expand... Is this a universal truth or should it contain some modifiers and additional information?
Soundman said: The point is that by not driving it as hard, it will give you better, cleaner sound. Click to expand... Is this a universal truth or should it contain some modifiers and additional information?
F fmw Audioholic Ninja Jul 5, 2007 3,002 0 83 Jan 23, 2008 #22 My answer to the original question is no, I wouldn't use the external amplifier personally. My home theater listening room is not huge (20X24) and my speakers are of average sensitivity so an external amplifier wouldn't have any noticeable affect on my system's performance. 100 wpc measured any way you like would be overkill in my situation. Using the external amplifier would simply be one more thing to turn on and off manually while operating the system and one more thing to draw kilowatts from our amateur electric company.
My answer to the original question is no, I wouldn't use the external amplifier personally. My home theater listening room is not huge (20X24) and my speakers are of average sensitivity so an external amplifier wouldn't have any noticeable affect on my system's performance. 100 wpc measured any way you like would be overkill in my situation. Using the external amplifier would simply be one more thing to turn on and off manually while operating the system and one more thing to draw kilowatts from our amateur electric company.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #23 mtrycrafts said: When are they ever driven all at the same instant some of the time? Never heard of such source material with that requirement Click to expand... Okay, I'm too lazy to read that "All Channels Driven" thread, so tell me. How many channels are driven at the same time? Two? Three? Straighten me out, will you?
mtrycrafts said: When are they ever driven all at the same instant some of the time? Never heard of such source material with that requirement Click to expand... Okay, I'm too lazy to read that "All Channels Driven" thread, so tell me. How many channels are driven at the same time? Two? Three? Straighten me out, will you?
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #24 fmw said: My answer to the original question is no, I wouldn't use the external amplifier personally. My home theater listening room is not huge (20X24) and my speakers are of average sensitivity so an external amplifier wouldn't have any noticeable affect on my system's performance. 100 wpc measured any way you like would be overkill in my situation. Using the external amplifier would simply be one more thing to turn on and off manually while operating the system and one more thing to draw kilowatts from our amateur electric company. Click to expand... Assuming you have a 10' ceiling, that's 4,800 cubic feet, which is a nice size room. But yeah, of course, none of us need an external amp. A 100 wpc (2 ch driven) receiver is all we ever need, especially since most of use keep the volume below 85 dBA and no more than 90 dBC? Any external amp to me is considered overkill. 200 wpc (all ch driven) is overkill. But a lot of people do it because they want overkill, not need it. So I agree that we don't NEED an external amp since it most likely won't improve the sound to any significant degree. I do it because it's cool.
fmw said: My answer to the original question is no, I wouldn't use the external amplifier personally. My home theater listening room is not huge (20X24) and my speakers are of average sensitivity so an external amplifier wouldn't have any noticeable affect on my system's performance. 100 wpc measured any way you like would be overkill in my situation. Using the external amplifier would simply be one more thing to turn on and off manually while operating the system and one more thing to draw kilowatts from our amateur electric company. Click to expand... Assuming you have a 10' ceiling, that's 4,800 cubic feet, which is a nice size room. But yeah, of course, none of us need an external amp. A 100 wpc (2 ch driven) receiver is all we ever need, especially since most of use keep the volume below 85 dBA and no more than 90 dBC? Any external amp to me is considered overkill. 200 wpc (all ch driven) is overkill. But a lot of people do it because they want overkill, not need it. So I agree that we don't NEED an external amp since it most likely won't improve the sound to any significant degree. I do it because it's cool.
F fmw Audioholic Ninja Jul 5, 2007 3,002 0 83 Jan 23, 2008 #25 I don't have a problem with that. I just take convenience and lower operating cost before coolness. We should have what we like.
I don't have a problem with that. I just take convenience and lower operating cost before coolness. We should have what we like.
mtrycrafts Seriously, I have no life. Aug 19, 2004 23,548 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #26 AcuDefTechGuy said: Okay, I'm too lazy to read that "All Channels Driven" thread, so tell me. How many channels are driven at the same time? Two? Three? Straighten me out, will you? Click to expand... Hard to say but the probability is very high that it is not more than 2 that will ever go to full power at the same instant. Don't know of any soundtrack that has all channels at full power at the same short instant in time. Remember, your filter caps are always recharging for the next dynamic peaks. Also remember, music and even the sound effects are very short in peaks back to back so the caps can recharge or should be able to.
AcuDefTechGuy said: Okay, I'm too lazy to read that "All Channels Driven" thread, so tell me. How many channels are driven at the same time? Two? Three? Straighten me out, will you? Click to expand... Hard to say but the probability is very high that it is not more than 2 that will ever go to full power at the same instant. Don't know of any soundtrack that has all channels at full power at the same short instant in time. Remember, your filter caps are always recharging for the next dynamic peaks. Also remember, music and even the sound effects are very short in peaks back to back so the caps can recharge or should be able to.
mtrycrafts Seriously, I have no life. Aug 19, 2004 23,548 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #27 fmw said: Is this a universal truth or should it contain some modifiers and additional information? Click to expand... Amplifiers are not animals They are designed for full power continuous operation on 2 ch, rarely happens, and partial power on the other channels. No need to be gentile on them The animal rights group will not be after you!!!
fmw said: Is this a universal truth or should it contain some modifiers and additional information? Click to expand... Amplifiers are not animals They are designed for full power continuous operation on 2 ch, rarely happens, and partial power on the other channels. No need to be gentile on them The animal rights group will not be after you!!!
mtrycrafts Seriously, I have no life. Aug 19, 2004 23,548 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #28 AcuDefTechGuy said: ...But a lot of people do it because they want overkill, ...: Click to expand... And, a lot of people buy extra horsepower too, an overkill. So, it has been implanted in us by the market.
AcuDefTechGuy said: ...But a lot of people do it because they want overkill, ...: Click to expand... And, a lot of people buy extra horsepower too, an overkill. So, it has been implanted in us by the market.
mtrycrafts Seriously, I have no life. Aug 19, 2004 23,548 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #29 j_garcia said: I read the review and yes it did get good marks. I still doubt that it will outperform the Adcom. . Click to expand... But we were not talking outperforming. You indicated the Yam's 100 watts of power is not the same as the 100watts in the Adcom, somehow it is different, doesn't measure up to the claimed power level by Yamaha. 100 Yamaha watts does not necessarily equal 100 Adcom watts. In fact, it does measure up very nicely and goes beyond it; it also stood up to the 4 ohm continuous power testing very well.
j_garcia said: I read the review and yes it did get good marks. I still doubt that it will outperform the Adcom. . Click to expand... But we were not talking outperforming. You indicated the Yam's 100 watts of power is not the same as the 100watts in the Adcom, somehow it is different, doesn't measure up to the claimed power level by Yamaha. 100 Yamaha watts does not necessarily equal 100 Adcom watts. In fact, it does measure up very nicely and goes beyond it; it also stood up to the 4 ohm continuous power testing very well.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #30 mtrycrafts said: Hard to say but the probability is very high that it is not more than 2 that will ever go to full power at the same instant. Don't know of any soundtrack that has all channels at full power at the same short instant in time. Remember, your filter caps are always recharging for the next dynamic peaks. Also remember, music and even the sound effects are very short in peaks back to back so the caps can recharge or should be able to. Click to expand... So the Onkyo 875, which is rated for 140 wpc, but measures 201 watts (1 ch driven) is pretty good, huh? I didn't see a 2-ch driven, but the 5-ch driven was 141 watts.
mtrycrafts said: Hard to say but the probability is very high that it is not more than 2 that will ever go to full power at the same instant. Don't know of any soundtrack that has all channels at full power at the same short instant in time. Remember, your filter caps are always recharging for the next dynamic peaks. Also remember, music and even the sound effects are very short in peaks back to back so the caps can recharge or should be able to. Click to expand... So the Onkyo 875, which is rated for 140 wpc, but measures 201 watts (1 ch driven) is pretty good, huh? I didn't see a 2-ch driven, but the 5-ch driven was 141 watts.
A audioman00 Audioholic Feb 14, 2004 189 0 0 Jan 23, 2008 #31 amp the main amp wil sound more full and smooth, more like the wattage it is rated at, the yamaha on it's finest day could never produce 100 watts X anything 20hz to 20kzh.... the real two cahnnel amp you have will... Believe me on this, especially for music the secondary 100x2 amp will sing, the yamaha 100x5 or whatever will choke the speaks to death at high volume levels, possibly even clip and toast the coils in your drivers. Unless you are talking about a huge 4k + receiver, then an external power amp is your best bet for the main speakers.
amp the main amp wil sound more full and smooth, more like the wattage it is rated at, the yamaha on it's finest day could never produce 100 watts X anything 20hz to 20kzh.... the real two cahnnel amp you have will... Believe me on this, especially for music the secondary 100x2 amp will sing, the yamaha 100x5 or whatever will choke the speaks to death at high volume levels, possibly even clip and toast the coils in your drivers. Unless you are talking about a huge 4k + receiver, then an external power amp is your best bet for the main speakers.
mtrycrafts Seriously, I have no life. Aug 19, 2004 23,548 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #32 AcuDefTechGuy said: I mean, come on, what's to distinguish us from non-audioholics? Click to expand... More knowledge
AcuDefTechGuy said: I mean, come on, what's to distinguish us from non-audioholics? Click to expand... More knowledge
mtrycrafts Seriously, I have no life. Aug 19, 2004 23,548 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #33 AcuDefTechGuy said: So the Onkyo 875, which is rated for 140 wpc, but measures 201 watts (1 ch driven) is pretty good, huh? I didn't see a 2-ch driven, but the 5-ch driven was 141 watts. Click to expand... Yes, of course that is good with speakers that are not very sensitive or when you are testing the limits of the amp, speakers, your nerves and the spouse's love for you
AcuDefTechGuy said: So the Onkyo 875, which is rated for 140 wpc, but measures 201 watts (1 ch driven) is pretty good, huh? I didn't see a 2-ch driven, but the 5-ch driven was 141 watts. Click to expand... Yes, of course that is good with speakers that are not very sensitive or when you are testing the limits of the amp, speakers, your nerves and the spouse's love for you
mtrycrafts Seriously, I have no life. Aug 19, 2004 23,548 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #34 audioman00 said: ... the yamaha on it's finest day could never produce 100 watts X anything 20hz to 20kzh.... [/QYOTE] How do you know this? Did you test it on the bench? AH did and they most certainly disagree with your speculations. In fact, it will do a good 130 watts into 8 ohms and 200 into 4 ohms. But, your independent testbench data is welcomed. audioman00 said: ... the real two cahnnel amp you have will... Believe me on this, especially for music the secondary 100x2 amp will sing, the yamaha 100x5 or whatever will choke the speaks to death at high volume levels, possibly even clip and toast the coils in your drivers. Unless you are talking about a huge 4k + receiver, then an external power amp is your best bet for the main speakers. Click to expand... Sheer speculation. Click to expand...
audioman00 said: ... the yamaha on it's finest day could never produce 100 watts X anything 20hz to 20kzh.... [/QYOTE] How do you know this? Did you test it on the bench? AH did and they most certainly disagree with your speculations. In fact, it will do a good 130 watts into 8 ohms and 200 into 4 ohms. But, your independent testbench data is welcomed. audioman00 said: ... the real two cahnnel amp you have will... Believe me on this, especially for music the secondary 100x2 amp will sing, the yamaha 100x5 or whatever will choke the speaks to death at high volume levels, possibly even clip and toast the coils in your drivers. Unless you are talking about a huge 4k + receiver, then an external power amp is your best bet for the main speakers. Click to expand... Sheer speculation. Click to expand...
j_garcia Audioholic Jedi Jul 11, 2005 32,531 0 113 Jan 23, 2008 #35 And what will that Adcom do on the bench? If you don't know, then there isn't a way to adequately compare them and say that they are equivalent or not. The simple fact is, he already has the amp and I can't give a good reason why one would NOT want to use it in that instance, unless he was driving some tiny little satellite speakers. The external amp WILL decrease the total draw on the receiver and it also means the mains are using a completely separate power supply. Though it may be mainly noticeable during very loud listening, there WILL be a noticeable difference using the external amp. Please provide evidence to the contrary if possible.
And what will that Adcom do on the bench? If you don't know, then there isn't a way to adequately compare them and say that they are equivalent or not. The simple fact is, he already has the amp and I can't give a good reason why one would NOT want to use it in that instance, unless he was driving some tiny little satellite speakers. The external amp WILL decrease the total draw on the receiver and it also means the mains are using a completely separate power supply. Though it may be mainly noticeable during very loud listening, there WILL be a noticeable difference using the external amp. Please provide evidence to the contrary if possible.
F fmw Audioholic Ninja Jul 5, 2007 3,002 0 83 Jan 24, 2008 #36 j_garcia said: The simple fact is, he already has the amp and I can't give a good reason why one would NOT want to use it in that instance, unless he was driving some tiny little satellite speakers. . Click to expand... Perhaps not but I gave him two good reasons.
j_garcia said: The simple fact is, he already has the amp and I can't give a good reason why one would NOT want to use it in that instance, unless he was driving some tiny little satellite speakers. . Click to expand... Perhaps not but I gave him two good reasons.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jan 24, 2008 #37 audioman00 said: Unless you are talking about a huge 4k + receiver, then an external power amp is your best bet for the main speakers. Click to expand... What about the $1,155 Onkyo 875 (which was measured by 3rd party independently to produce 141 watts/ch with 5 ch driven)?
audioman00 said: Unless you are talking about a huge 4k + receiver, then an external power amp is your best bet for the main speakers. Click to expand... What about the $1,155 Onkyo 875 (which was measured by 3rd party independently to produce 141 watts/ch with 5 ch driven)?
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jan 24, 2008 #38 mtrycrafts said: More knowledge Click to expand... Yeah, audioholics/audiophiles have more knowledge, but especially a lot more passion and interest for audio gears.
mtrycrafts said: More knowledge Click to expand... Yeah, audioholics/audiophiles have more knowledge, but especially a lot more passion and interest for audio gears.
j_garcia Audioholic Jedi Jul 11, 2005 32,531 0 113 Jan 24, 2008 #39 fmw said: Perhaps not but I gave him two good reasons. Click to expand... I don't consider having to turn on the amp a good reason. When I turn my receiver on, my amps come on also - one button press, no walking over to anything. The electricity one is valid, but paying a few bucks (literally) more a month in electricity is something I can live with if it means I can enjoy my music and movies more as well - others may see it differently.
fmw said: Perhaps not but I gave him two good reasons. Click to expand... I don't consider having to turn on the amp a good reason. When I turn my receiver on, my amps come on also - one button press, no walking over to anything. The electricity one is valid, but paying a few bucks (literally) more a month in electricity is something I can live with if it means I can enjoy my music and movies more as well - others may see it differently.
F fmw Audioholic Ninja Jul 5, 2007 3,002 0 83 Jan 24, 2008 #40 j_garcia said: I don't consider having to turn on the amp a good reason. When I turn my receiver on, my amps come on also - one button press, no walking over to anything. The electricity one is valid, but paying a few bucks (literally) more a month in electricity is something I can live with if it means I can enjoy my music and movies more as well - others may see it differently. Click to expand... I didn't realize his amp had a 12v trigger. I'm surprised it does. I see it differently than you do because, in my system, a separate amp wouldn't improve anything over a receiver so it would be unnecessary baggage. Your system could have different requirements than mine. The point is that having a separate amp is not universally beneficial. It is a benefit in a minority of cases.
j_garcia said: I don't consider having to turn on the amp a good reason. When I turn my receiver on, my amps come on also - one button press, no walking over to anything. The electricity one is valid, but paying a few bucks (literally) more a month in electricity is something I can live with if it means I can enjoy my music and movies more as well - others may see it differently. Click to expand... I didn't realize his amp had a 12v trigger. I'm surprised it does. I see it differently than you do because, in my system, a separate amp wouldn't improve anything over a receiver so it would be unnecessary baggage. Your system could have different requirements than mine. The point is that having a separate amp is not universally beneficial. It is a benefit in a minority of cases.
