Quality of Sound

[Sangeet]

Hi you audiophils,

I am new on audioholics.com Home Theater, HDTV, Receivers, Loudspeakers — Reviews and News from Audioholics[/url] but have passion for music or sound quality. Let me come straight to the point. Here is what I have :-
Pioneer SC 35 THX receiver – 9.1 channel
Sony 100 CD changer with optical output
JBL ES 90 speaker
Polk 12” Subwoofer

My problem is that I don’t like the quality of sound when I listen to the music from the CD player. I recently visited some of these vintage stereo stores in Houston and heard various 80s and 90s stereo system with vintage floor standing speakers and I was amazed to hear the quality of sound. They were so much full and detailed unlike my system. Now my question to you guys is why my system doesn’t sound so full and good ? Does these old system have something which the latest system don’t. I know all old music systems have class A/B amplifiers and the latest have class D but is that it or also the speaker. If I buy a good class A/B power amplifier (2 channel) just for listening to music, will I get the same full sound that I heard at the vintage stereo store? Do I also need to change the speaker ?

Important : I only listen to music on CD. Not interested in movies.
Please help.
Regards

 

[j_garcia]

Speakers make the single largest difference in how your system sounds. Second would be proper placement, configuration of the system and calibration. In your case, it is likely the speakers that are a contributing cause. I haven't heard the ES90, but the typical JBL home speakers have been decent over the years, however I would not say they are drool worthy, so I'd start by doing exactly what you already started - listen to some more speakers and find some that you like.

 

[markw]

Assuming your receiver has adequate power to drive them, your choice of speakers has the most impact on the "quality of sound" you get from your system.

Since, I assume, most of your lstening is done in two channels, I doubt lack of power is too much of an issue.

 

[Sangeet]

Garcia and mark - Thanks

So do you think Pioneer SC 35 THX receiver is ok and I don't need a seperate 2 channel power amp ?

The vintage stereo system that I heard at the stores were all 2 channel old style amplifiers with bass and treble control but even at zero bass and treble they sounded so good and especially the mids sounded so good.

The speakers I heard at the vintage stores were Snell, Hales revelation 3 and an old polk floor standing.

 

[Sangeet]

Mark,

My receiver's power is 140 watts per channel. but my concern is the sound quality

 

[j_garcia]

Based on that, sounds like you were listening to nicer speakers than what you have.

One other note: If you don't care about movies and primarily listen in stereo, then there's no reason to have a 9.1 receiver. Power isn't the problem here most likely, but no an A/B amp won't make your speakers sound dramatically different. You could definitely move to an integrated amp or stereo receiver and not lose anything. Something like this: RR2150 Stereo Receiver

I'd start with a speaker upgrade first though.

 

[Steve81]

To toss in my 2 cents, I'd probably take a hard look at the generic "Polk 12" subwoofer", as well as placement/setup.

A better subwoofer properly set up will add considerable fullness to the sound, and crossed at 80Hz or so to your JBL mains, should let them work their magic reasonably well. With respect to the speakers, I'd fiddle with placement, toe in, etc. These factors make a huge difference with perceived detail.

 

[j_garcia]

I would probably toss the Polk subwoofer

Proper setup, as I mentioned, is a good place to start and it doesn't cost anything.

Your ROOM can be a big factor as well. Do you have wood or tile floors? Lots of reflective surfaces? Huge room?

 

[Sangeet]

Steve,

Thanks. I already have purchaesd a velodyne 15 subwoofer but the problem is not the lows. it's the mids and fullness of sound that I liked with these old speakers. I'm unable to explain this this but just to give you an example, I heard hotel california (eagles) on these vintage system and you could hear every instrument so clearly and each string of guitar can be heard seperatly

 

[markw]

As suggested, try kerfutzing around with speaker placement first.

You might also try forgoing the sub for music to see if that helps. Remember to assure your mains are getting the full range by telling your system you are not using a sub-woofer.

If that fails, look at replacing your speakers before looking at electronics. No electronics will be able to compensate for speaker that lack the ability to satisfy your tastes.

But, I understand your concern. When auditioning speakers, always select the front R/L mains based on music reproduction, not movies. When you find them, go for the matching center and surrounds.

I've noticed that many, many systems sound great when playing movies but fall flat on their keister when trying to handle music. I've never seen a great music system fail to satisfy on movies.

 

[Sangeet]

OK. I will start with speaker first but can you please recommend some good brands.

Sould I get old or new ?

Vintage or latest ?

 

[Sangeet]

I have already tossed the polk subwoofer but have not installed the new subwoofer. I will do it this weekend

 

[markw]

OK. I will start with speaker first but can you please recommend some good brands.

Sould I get old or new ?

Vintage or latest ?

Grab some CD'sand listen to everything you can find within your price range within driving distance. Only your ears will be able to tell what you like.

Buying unheard leaves open the possibiliy of further disappointment.

But, if you can find deals on the ones you've heard and liked, that would be a good place to start.

 

[Sangeet]

Garcia

I have carpet with drywall. room size is not big - 15 feet X 12 feet.

 

[j_garcia]

Carpet is good. Room size should be OK for the amount of power you have too. Now, how do you have the speakers placed? How far from the wall, how far from each other, how far from you? Is your seating near the wall or out into the room?

 

[GranteedEV]

They were so much full and detailed unlike my system. Now my question to you guys is why my system doesn’t sound so full and good ?

"Fullness" tends to be a frequency response related issue. Speakers that veer away from flat to get "instant appeal" often lack fullness and try to make up for it with exaggerated bass. Also your speakers seem to be 4-ways, plus a subwoofer for an effective 5-way. Without good driver integration that can be a mess, and to get good driver intergration can be expensive.

And it's possible you were listening to "overly" full speakers, which is unnatural-sounding on some music.

Finally, I wouldn't discount room acoustics. They are by far the second greatest determinant of SQ after the speaker.

Does these old system have something which the latest system don’t. I know all old music systems have class A/B amplifiers and the latest have class D but is that it or also the speaker. If I buy a good class A/B power amplifier (2 channel) just for listening to music, will I get the same full sound that I heard at the vintage stereo store?

Nothing is wrong with a class D output stage. However it has to be implemented well with a stout power supply too. The "140 WPC" Pioneer SC-37 for only puts out about 150WPC @ 4 ohm. This means it is "effectively" only a 65-75 wpc amplifier driving a 4 ohm load - and many speakers will be a 4 ohm load regardless of marketing literature. The SC-35 is essentially the same amp section - so you can see that perhaps your speakers are underpowered. It's not the ICEPower output stage causing that - it's the power supply.

Still, 65 watts is a lot of power and it's possible to be perfectly adequate at the SPLs you listen at. I've had lots of output from an effectively ~20 watt amp before.

Do I also need to change the speaker ?

I've not heard your speakers personally, but this is what I would put my money on. I recall Gene didn' t like them either.

My advice is to find nearby speakers whose frequency response measurements are well-documented online so that you can get a feel for what kind of speaker you prefer.

Since you mentioned vintage speakers, you might note that older speakers had wider dimensions. This is often very directly related to the speaker's forward radiation. Thin speakers inevitably have a transition in radiation from forward, to forward and backward, and then back to forward, which can be very problematic for designers to get satisfactory sounding in the lower mids and upper bass . Wide speakers often maintain a smoother transition in this region so perhaps you might consider some Pi speakers 3 Pis for example.

Do you have a budget? Where abouts are you located?

 

[GranteedEV]

Garcia

I have carpet with drywall. room size is not big - 15 feet X 12 feet.

I'm not sure the JBL ES90s are liking your room size. You may not even be far enough away for the drivers to be summing together nicely.

You might want to consider getting some broadband absorption in the room as drywall may be accentuating the upper frequencies. You definitely want to absorb the sound at the wall behind the speaker, toward the ceiling and the wall behind the listener.

Then push the speakers closer to the wall and wide apart (for a 15 foot wide room, try about 8 feet apart, with about 3 feet from lateral boundaries). Pull your seating further back, about 9 feet away from the speakers.

even 50 watts @ 8 ohm / 100w @ 4 ohm - should be enough power for a small room like that.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Hi you audiophils,

I am new on audioholics.com Home Theater, HDTV, Receivers, Loudspeakers — Reviews and News from Audioholics[/url] but have passion for music or sound quality. Let me come straight to the point. Here is what I have :-
Pioneer SC 35 THX receiver – 9.1 channel
Sony 100 CD changer with optical output
JBL ES 90 speaker
Polk 12” Subwoofer

My problem is that I don’t like the quality of sound when I listen to the music from the CD player. I recently visited some of these vintage stereo stores in Houston and heard various 80s and 90s stereo system with vintage floor standing speakers and I was amazed to hear the quality of sound. They were so much full and detailed unlike my system. Now my question to you guys is why my system doesn’t sound so full and good ? Does these old system have something which the latest system don’t. I know all old music systems have class A/B amplifiers and the latest have class D but is that it or also the speaker. If I buy a good class A/B power amplifier (2 channel) just for listening to music, will I get the same full sound that I heard at the vintage stereo store? Do I also need to change the speaker ?

Important : I only listen to music on CD. Not interested in movies.
Please help.
Regards

This is a classic case or putting too much money and attention in electronics and totally dumping money on mediocre speakers...
As others mentioned - speakers determine at-least 90% of total SQ(sound quality(.
Your sources are good (and any cd players with digital out is fine) and you have enough power (SC-35 has WAY more than enough) -
The most likely issue is weak spot is your speakers... Buying unheard is risk, but risk which can be managed

Many internet direct brands offer free 30 days in home trials and few even offer free shipping BOTH ways (ie: Apperion audio,etc )

ID brand can offer much better value than regular brand, but it's not a rule.

Let us know of your budget and we'll give you suggestions.

For know I'd make sure to run auto-room setup and see if you like the results
You have to do this each time you make any changes, including like moving speaker by few inches.

 

[anamorphic96]

I would also make sure you have no sound processing turned on. You should be running in some sort of pure direct mode to really get an idea of how the speakers sound.

 

[jonnythan]

What kind of EQ settings are you using?