Power Sound Audio Triax Subwoofer Preview

[gene]

You may be confused.

rbh uses the 2400w version, which they rate at 2400w of course. Seaton Sound uses the 2400 version, which they rate at 2400w of course. JTR has used the 2400w and 4000w versions, which they rate at....what for it....2400w and 4000w.

Power Sound Audio is using the 4000w version, which we rate at 4000w.

Can you list the manufacturers using the SP1-4000 and rating it at 2000w? Thanks.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

It doesn't matter. The power ratings are unachievable using 120V lines. Not blaming you for using the amp as I am sure its a good product, but the overrating crap just gets out of hand in this industry. Call it 4kwatt burst and we won't have as much of an argument.

 

[gene]

Actually the Speaker Power amplifiers can deliver full rated power for much longer periods than that. There is plenty of information about these amplifiers available.

Comparative Performance - SpeakerPower

Lab Gruppen FP14000 gets spanked...by plate amp?

SpeakerPower Torpedo SP1-4000 Plate Amp

If you look at the capabilities of these amplifiers in relation to how they will be used the manufacturer's specifications are accurate. If, for some reason, you expect these amplifiers to produce their rated power for hours...than no, they cannot do that. Of course it would be of absolutely no benefit if they did....well, maybe you could weld with them at that point.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Tom look at the fine print. Those are burst tests done on a 50A line. Who has a 120V/50A line in their house?

The manufacturer actually rates long term power at around 2.2 kwatt. but again, those are under quite ideal conditions.

Your website mistakenly lists 4kwatt as RMS and 8kwatts peak.

My apologies to the amp manufacturer as it seems the inflated power rating is listed on the Power Sound Audio website, not the amp manufacturer.

 

[Tom V.]

Hi Steve,

In hindsight we could have used *RMS*. To most, these two are synonymous though. The reality is RMS(root means squared) does not imply any length of time. Well, there is the length of time it takes for the amplifier to create a sine wave. But the idea that RMS implies minutes or hours is false. With source material the amplifier is never going to see a "continuous" load for more than a couple seconds.

If we have time to pick nits at the site later I'll see if Jim wants to change it to RMS.


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[gene]

Hi Steve,

In hindsight we could have used *RMS*. To most, these two are synonymous though. The reality is RMS(root means squared) does not imply any length of time. Well, there is the length of time it takes for the amplifier to create a sine wave. But the idea that RMS implies minutes or hours is false. With source material the amplifier is never going to see a "continuous" load for more than a couple seconds.

If we have time to pick nits at the site later I'll see if Jim wants to change it to RMS.


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

how about you just rate it like the manufacturer did. The long term power is 2.25 kwatt and dynamic power is 4kwatt.

 

[ahblaza]

how about you just rate it like the manufacturer did. The long term power is 2.25 kwatt and dynamic power is 4kwatt.

Assuming this is correct, please forgive my ignorance, a dedicated 110 volt 20 amp circiut would be appropriate, correct?

 

[ShaunH]

how about you just rate it like the manufacturer did. The long term power is 2.25 kwatt and dynamic power is 4kwatt.

PSA is using the manufactures rating. look at the product listing.

SpeakerPower - Home

SP1 Mono Models - SpeakerPower


It dose for 4KW for several seconds. I doubt most manufactures are any more stringent.

 

[gene]

Assuming this is correct, please forgive my ignorance, a dedicated 110 volt 20 amp circiut would be appropriate, correct?

Yes the amp is designed to work on 120V though I didn't see an image of the power receptacle or cord to see if its IEC compliant with a true 20A outlet. You may need a converter cable to use it on a 20A line but I would also verify with the manufacturer.

I talk about this in my Emotiva XPA-1 review as that amp is CE certified for a 20A connection and uses a true dedicated IEC 20A power receptacle and power cord.
Emotiva XPR-1 Mono Amplifier Review Introduction | Audioholics

 

[gene]

PSA is using the manufactures rating. look at the product listing.

SpeakerPower - Home

SP1 Mono Models - SpeakerPower

I don't want to beat a dead horse here but the amp manufacturer calls it a 4kwatt amp but their spec page actually declares it to be 2.25kwatt. It also lists the test conditions to achieve their 2.25kwatt long term power and 4kwatt short term power using burst testing on a 120V/50A line (something NOBODY has in their homes).

Power Sound Audio rates the amp 4kwatt RMS and 8kwatt peak. NOWHERE does the amp manufacturer even show an 8kwatt rating for the amp and RMS is a misleading term to use with amplifiers IMO, especially in this case.

 

[ShaunH]

Maybe but then so should Seaton sound and JTR if we need to start forcing a re ratting of these amps.

Honestly its not a huge point. The big point of dsccussion should be measured performance of the package. Hopefully alcoholics will review this quickly to show how this sub stalks up.

 

[gene]

Maybe but then so should Seaton sound and JTR if we need to start forcing a re ratting of these amps.

Honestly its not a huge point. The big point of dsccussion should be measured performance of the package. Hopefully alcoholics will review this quickly to show how this sub stalks up.

Agreed, overrating power in power amps is a common sickness in this industry. Unfortunately PSA trying to keep up with the Jones in this case since many of their competitors are doing the very same thing. What does matter is how it measures though 3rd party verification as well as how it sounds.

Looks like a great product and I don't mean to take anything away from it based on some over reaching power specifications.

 

[ahblaza]

Not dedicated outlet

I posted a few pics of my supposed dedicated 20 amp outlet, I quess I answered my own question, I don't think it is dedicated, I don't know what plug is on the Triax as well.


It says on the receptacle 125 volt 20 amp UL listed

 

[Tom V.]

It doesn't matter. The power ratings are unachievable using 120V lines. Not blaming you for using the amp as I am sure its a good product, but the overrating crap just gets out of hand in this industry. Call it 4kwatt burst and we won't have as much of an argument.

Ok, thanks. So these "other" examples using this same amp rating them at 2000watts don't really exist then? Got it.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[gene]

I posted a few pics of my supposed dedicated 20 amp outlet, I quess I answered my own question, I don't think it is dedicated, I don't know what plug is on the Triax as well.
View attachment 11942View attachment 11943View attachment 11944

It says on the receptacle 125 volt 20 amp UL listed

That appears to be a true dedicated 20A line.

 

[gene]

Ok, thanks. So these "other" examples using this same amp rating them at 2000watts don't really exist then? Got it.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

No the product exists, but the honesty of power ratings varies from manufacturer to manufacturer which is clearly the point of these posts. It's one thing to post an ideal lab condition power rating and another to post an actual achievable power rating in the field. In any event, claiming the amp will do 8000 watts peak using a 120V line when NOT even the amp designer specifies that, well, its a bit intellectually dishonest to put it mildly.

Sorry, I misread: I thought the RBH SX-1212/R used the same module that your does initially but haven't confirmed that yet. Yes apparently sub manufacturers using this amp are overstating the real power rating for marketing purposes. Nothing new, but something that should be addressed when the topic comes up to better inform consumers.

 

[Tom V.]

PSA is using the manufactures rating. look at the product listing.

SpeakerPower - Home

SP1 Mono Models - SpeakerPower


It dose for 4KW for several seconds. I doubt most manufactures are any more stringent.

Hi Shaun,

What's being over looked is that home breakers will pass 200-400% of their rating for 2-4 seconds in most cases.

As Mark Seaton has explained many times in the past the rating here are not about what a Speaker Power Amp can do over hours or even minutes. In this application we are discussing a couple of seconds worst case of "steady state" output. (unless something is hard clipping----then who knows).

We feel we have accurately rated these amplifiers based on performance with their intended source material. I bet Jeff and Mark feel the same way. If we would have specced them in ANY other way it would have created major confusion among home theater enthusiasts who may be considering Power Sound Audio, JTR, and Seaton Sound when purchasing their next product. Someone quoted the "long term" power spec at 2250 watts. I personally don't care what a subwoofer amplifier can do for an hour straight as it will never occur in reality. This is like someone saying..."I just built a BBC that can handle 7500 RPMs at the drags. Some other guys complains...."Well, can you spin your engine at 7500 RPM for an hour straight....if not....you are ridiculous".

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[gene]

Hi Shaun,

What's being over looked is that home breakers will pass 200-400% of their rating for 2-4 seconds in most cases.

As Mark Seaton has explained many times in the past the rating here are not about what a Speaker Power Amp can do over hours or even minutes. In this application we are discussing a couple of seconds worst case of "steady state" output. (unless something is hard clipping----then who knows).

We feel we have accurately rated these amplifiers based on performance with their intended source material. I bet Jeff and Mark feel the same way. If we would have specced them in ANY other way it would have created major confusion among home theater enthusiasts who may be considering Power Sound Audio, JTR, and Seaton Sound when purchasing their next product. Someone quoted the "long term" power spec at 2250 watts. I personally don't care what a subwoofer amplifier can do for an hour straight as it will never occur in reality. This is like someone saying..."I just built a BBC that can handle 7500 RPMs at the drags. Some other guys complains...."Well, can you spin your engine at 7500 RPM for an hour straight....if not....you are ridiculous".

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

We are not talking hours or even minutes here. The problem is, the same people that claim they "don't care" about power ratings are the very same ones that are over rating Power! It's funny how this is ok with subwoofer amps, but not with stand alone fullrange audio amplifiers or receivers. People grill receiver manufacturers when its claimed their receivers will do 100wpc b/c they won't do it All channels driven, but sub amps can be declared 8kwatts when they can't even deliver 1/2 of that rating continuously. Hmm.

Again, I ask, what is the slo-blo fuse rating on the primary of the power supply of this amp? We can quickly calculate how much power the sub amp will allow before blowing the fuse assuming the wall outlet could deliver it. A slo-blow fuse will typically allow double the rated current for 10s of seconds before blowing. So if the manufacturer is using say a 15A fuse, then you should be able to allow 30 amps for a few seconds but not 60-70 amps for any meaningful amount of time.

What we are seeing here is more in line with Instantaneous Power or PMPO, certainly not continuous or RMS for that matter.

Good reading material on this very topic:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-high-instantaneous-current-spec

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/amplifier-power-ratings

 

[its phillip]

What really matters is the performance of the subwoofer. All this crap about the wattage rating of the amplifier won't matter once the unit is tested. It should be 2-3x the performance of a Paradigm Sub 2 at 1/3 the price.

 

[ShaunH]

What really matters is the performance of the subwoofer. All this crap about the wattage rating of the amplifier won't matter once the unit is tested. It should be 2-3x the performance of a Paradigm Sub 2 at 1/3 the price.

Yup, and I really don't expect for PSA to not deliver.

 

[gene]

BTW the new RBH SX-1212/R is in fact using the SP1-4000 amplifier and RBH is rating it at the correct manufacturers 2400 watt specification. I just confirmed this with their engineer.

see: Subwoofer: RBH SX-1212P/R Powered Subwoofer

The amp module has a 30 amp PTC fuse so in theory it could accept up to 2X the rated current for a few seconds.

Brian from Speaker Power claims this amp can do 3600 watt peak (NOT continuously) into a 4 ohm load assuming you have enough wall current.

Looks like a killer amp to be used for a subwoofer!

 

[ahblaza]

That appears to be a true dedicated 20A line.

Thanks, I ran the 12/3 wire myself and installed the 20 breakers in the box, I did this with two circuits in my HT room, so yes I quess I have two dedicated 20 amp circuits in my room with nothing else on them, no lights, freezers etc. So I guess I'm good to go with the Triax?