power consumption

[av_phile]

So, you're saying that a lot of what's passed around in this hobby as "facts" are really only beliefs based on faith and many will totally disregard any proof that science that might supply?

I am not aware that beliefs of hobbysts are being presented as facts. I don't. In contrast, it is those statistical probabalities and bs embraced by some robots that are being bandied about as facts. They're just opinions to me. No more or less valid as opinions by hobbysts founded on experiential perceptions.

 

[markw]

A fairly expensive balm for opinions, IMNSHO.

I am not aware that beliefs of hobbysts are being presented as facts. I don't. In contrast, it is those statistical probabalities and bs embraced by some robots that are being bandied about as facts. They're just opinions to me. No more or less valid as opinions by hobbysts founded on experiential perceptions.

http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

 

[Polkfan]

http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

People actually buy those things? Snake oil for sure. $1200.00 dollars worth.

 

[Votrax]

If people actually buy this cable burner then I should have no problem selling my DVD rewinder!

 

[mtrycrafts]

No more or less valid as opinions by hobbysts founded on experiential perceptions.

Actually, opinions are not created equal. Some have more value than others.

Perception is unreliable.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If people actually buy this cable burner then I should have no problem selling my DVD rewinder!

You don't have one? Maybe your machine is broken. It works in mine

 

[keenan]

Along with the cable burner, no one should be without one of these,

http://www.bedini.com/quadri.htm
BEDINI ELECTRONICS, INC..

Jim

 

[WmAx]

Along with the cable burner, no one should be without one of these,

http://www.bedini.com/quadri.htm
BEDINI ELECTRONICS, INC..

Jim

I think we have a winner for most fraudulent product! The 'waveform analysis' is what really takes the cake in this one. All-out B.S.! But to be fair, they did not say the before and after waveforms were from the SAME 10 second clip. Hehe.

-Chris

 

[av_phile]

Nope, statistics is irrelevant in this hobby.


NOPE. You made it clear that it is irrelevant to YOU. I wonder why that is?

The reasons are stated elsewhere. I don't see how statistics can contribute to my enjoyment in this hobby. But if they do for you, you can have them.

A belief system shared among many will never be overturned by a mere statistical result.

Of course not. It is just a belief system that those many are after, not facts and reality.

Facts and reality? The fact is that statistics is all probabilities. Nothing more. If you and your ilk put weight on probabilities, be my guest. But don't give us that BS that it's the truth. It's just another opinion. And if you don't want opinions presented as facts, neither do we like yours presented similarly.

Afterall, you can have all your respondents in a statistical DBT say they don't see GOD, but such statistics will hardly debunk the belief in GOD.

You are right, faith in the supernatural is all that matters, not facts and reality.

This is a hobby that finds fulfillment in its self-indulgences. That's the reality about it. The facts can help people decide which appliance to buy, but in the end, it's the value perception that wins.

Truth? What truth?

Yep, you wouldn't know it if it was staring at you.

LOL. If all it does is stare and not contribute one iota of pleasure to my hobby, why bother?

Well, if your truth is founded on mere statistics,

Ah, I wonder if those statistics came out of thin air, or emperical evidence?
You are not interested in facts. You will never know, just keep believing in the faith of audio religion.

What empirical evidence? Statistics? Do they provide emotional highs when listening to Brahms. I know the spec sheets about my Acurus. They say 200w continuous minimum per channel, 20Hz-20khz, ALL channels driven, into 8 ohms, at less than 0.06% THD. And all those TIM, IM, S/N etc etc. That's about the extent of my interest in the facts in this hobby. After that, the ears take over, and what they tell me are more convincing than any statistics out there.

you have my sympathies, I won't argue with you.

Hard to argue evidence with just beliefs.

Yup, there's IS no argument. It can't win over beliefs.

But in this hobby, there are many truths.


Then there are none. Not possible.

That's what makes a subjective hobby interesting, anything is possible.

And the most pertinent of all is a personal subjective truth that is based on VALUE perceptions.

To you a singular reality is imprtant. Not applicable to anyone else. Worthless to anyone else. Meaningless.

A very apt self-description. It is you and your kind that only has a singular reality - confined to the myopic limits of the statistical and empirical kind. Snobs like me have realities spanning far beyond such confines - from the magical to the absurd and back. But oh the pleasures we get. That's what an indulgent hobby is about.

This is a personal hobby. Not a scientific pursuit.

I presumne you build your own reproduction system then? Create your own music? Or, rely on audio science and the artists of music?

Seems in your statistical ivory tower, you forget that the appreciation of music is an ART. Not a science. I would prefer to attend concert hall performances, but I also like the comfort of my home. Too bad I had to use those audio gears plagued with the constraints of manufacturing sciences to enjoy a replica of my favourites that I heard in the concert hall. I could invite Trevor Pinnock and his English Concert to perform at home, every night, but I'm afraid that would cost so much more than getting a $15,000 Mark Levinson. Tsk Tsk, the things you have to settle with to get mere compromises in this hobby. And then suddenly, just because we had to settle with those audio gears, this hobby becomes a science that must rely on statistical and empirical data. What for, can we enjoy the music with it? You forget that this hobby is not about hardware. It's about getting emotional highs from listening to music that sadly is constraind by the science of home playback. This hobby is first and foremost an art. Just because we use audio gears as a financial and logistical compromise for the home doesn't mean we should follow empirical and statistical insights overnight.

But I must admit, a statistical DBT does provide a comforting thought on people who cannot afford beyond what the statistics would have them.

You are right. I cannot afford mythology, bs, hype, urban legends and voodoo.
You see, you can be right too.

Oh thank you.

Curiously, you can afford hype. That's what you get with most mass market receivers, don't you?

Mythology, legends, voodoo....come to think of it, they contain more intrinsic entertainment value than statistics. But who says this hobby has to have entertainment value at all.

 

[av_phile]

http://www.oregondv.com/Nordost_CBID-1_Cable_Burner.htm

Wow!!!! Another thousand dollar gizmo that will satisfy the rich and the indulgent in their minds and hopefully result in more sonically euphonic cables to titillate the aural imagination!!!!

Well, if there are people who find VALUE in such gizmos and can afford to luxuriate in them, what right has anyone to frown on them? Their claims are at least questionable. Are you on a crusade to stomp out the voodos out there competing in this free market economy? If so, you can start with receivers and amps that have over-hyped power ratings. The deception, if that's what you are stomping out, is just as bad. It's amazing, some people turn a blind eye on the misrepresentation made by mass manufacturers in the interest of market dominance and the false expectations engendered to unwary consumers about overhyped receivers and amps. But these same people have all eyes trained, quick and ready, to condemn suspected frivolous claims that largely belong to the obscenely moneyed and the snobs, not theirs. Sounds like double standard to me? Ok for mass products to make dubious claims. Not ok for elitist products to do the same.

Well, maybe it is more tolerable for cheap products to make dubious claims in one area. But a little harder to swallow for expensive gears to do the same in some other areas. Some will point out that there is no sceintific process to verify such claims, while the other is backed-up by measurements, even though their presentations are less than full disclosure. Fine. But the effects are the same - false expectations on the consumer.

Then again, why bother. This is a hobby where anything of VALUE to the hobbyst goes. False or real expectations have that power of suggestion that can heighten the perceptions of the hobbyst who find value in what he buys. Whether it's an overhyped receiver or a cable burner. Robots will tell me these two are different. I couldn't care less. THis is a hobby that can accomodate both. One is for the realistic, the other is for the romantic. One is for the moneyed. the other is, well, let's just say, for those who have better things to spend on. The double standards I can understand. I don't necessarily have to subscribe to it.

 

[markw]

Wow!!!! Another thousand dollar gizmo that will satisfy the rich and the indulgent in their minds and hopefully result in more sonically euphonic cables to titillate the aural imagination!!!!

Well, if there are people who find VALUE in such gizmos and can afford to luxuriate in them, what right has anyone to frown on them?

Whis is frowning on them? We're having a good laugh about it.

Their claims are at least questionable.

That might just qualify as the understatement of the year.

Are you on a crusade to stomp out the voodos out there competing in this free market economy? If so, you can start with receivers and amps that have over-hyped power ratings. The deception, if that's what you are stomping out, is just as bad. It's amazing, some people turn a blind eye on the misrepresentation made by mass manufacturers in the interest of market dominance and the false expectations engendered to unwary consumers about overhyped receivers and amps. But these same people have all eyes trained, quick and ready, to condemn suspected frivolous claims that largely belong to the obscenely moneyed and the snobs, not theirs. Sounds like double standard to me? Ok for mass products to make dubious claims. Not ok for elitist products to do the same.

Well, maybe it is more tolerable for cheap products to make dubious claims in one area. But a little harder to swallow for expensive gears to do the same in some other areas. Some will point out that there is no sceintific process to verify such claims, while the other is backed-up by measurements, even though their presentations are less than full disclosure. Fine. But the effects are the same - false expectations on the consumer.

Then again, why bother. This is a hobby where anything of VALUE to the hobbyst goes.

Perhaps, but my definition of VALUE is spending money, time and effort that has a real benefit, not merely an imagined one. That's the definition of "snake oil". Please excuse us for having a laugh at their expense. As for the receiver thing you so happily throw around, one could buy several of them for the price of one burner. And, since they appeal to the mass market, many are not so egomanicial as to propose to know everything like the audiosnob community, which jumps in like to accept any prose worthy words that seem to tickle their fancy and expand their ego. Most "non" audiophiles are happy in their ignorance with their receivers becuase they actually DO deliver what they want, which is decent sound at a reasonable price. They can hear that without convincing themselves otherwise. And, if they don't like one brand, there's another one right next to it.

Me, I'm somewhere in the middle. I have enough tech chops to have a pretty good idea of when I'm being scammed and to pretty know what matters and what doesn't. And, I have a fairly sensitive BS detector and it's going off even as we speak. Back away and let's see if the reading goes down a little.

Now, as for the technobable and half truths that so entrances the audiosnob community, well, if that's all it takes to convice them to buy something, that's their little red wagon. Simply throwing money into a hobby is no sure way to insure better sound, but for many it seems to work simply because they wish it. I think I'll market audiophile quality Chia pets, which are scientificaly designed to absorb unwanted vibrations when grown exactly to specification and placed according to instructions.

False or real expectations have that power of suggestion that can heighten the perceptions of the hobbyst who find value in what he buys. Whether it's an overhyped receiver or a cable burner.

False expectations based on the power of suggestion differ from religion exactly how? Actually, that power of suggestion thing might have more in common with hypnosis. I'm more convinced this is more of an emperor's new clothes thingie going on.

Robots will tell me these two are different.

True, the receiver's attributes are real, admitted to and can be demonstrated. Now, as to the cable burner? Who is actually the robot here?

I couldn't care less.

Really? then how come you find it so important to try to make your elitist point and wind up face down in the dust every time?

The double standards I can understand. I don't necessarily have to subscribe to it.

Ah, but you do subscribe to them. By trying to compare this voodoo device to receivers you merely prove you DO subscribe to it. See above comment.

 

[keenan]

The stuff on this page should give you guys hours and hours of things to talk about, and this stuffs way better than the clarifier and the cable burner.

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/product.html
Products

Jim

 

[spenny]

watts (also known as VA) divided by the voltage will give you your calculated power-consumption.

ie: my 540A Azur draws 500VA at full-power
so: 500Watts / 230Volts = 2.17Amps.
If the voltage is @ 110 then the amps drawn will be effectively doubled. The Wattage will be the same but it will draw more current (amps) to compensate for the lack of input-voltage.

 

[av_phile]

Whis is frowning on them? We're having a good laugh about it.

I'm also laughing my heart out with your assertions.

Perhaps, but my definition of VALUE is spending money, time and effort that has a real benefit, not merely an imagined one. That's the definition of "snake oil". Please excuse us for having a laugh at their expense. As for the receiver thing you so happily throw around, one could buy several of them for the price of one burner. And, since they appeal to the mass market, many are not so egomanicial as to propose to know everything like the audiosnob community, which jumps in like to accept any prose worthy words that seem to tickle their fancy and expand their ego. Most "non" audiophiles are happy in their ignorance with their receivers becuase they actually DO deliver what they want, which is decent sound at a reasonable price. They can hear that without convincing themselves otherwise. And, if they don't like one brand, there's another one right next to it.

Well, like I said, anyone is free to have whatever VALUE judgement they have in this hobby. Yours is just as valid as anyone who have money to throw away. What may be senseless to you make sense to others. And I couldn't care less what your value is. They obviously are way below mine.

Me, I'm somewhere in the middle. I have enough tech chops to have a pretty good idea of when I'm being scammed and to pretty know what matters and what doesn't. And, I have a fairly sensitive BS detector and it's going off even as we speak. Back away and let's see if the reading goes down a little.

Good for you. Not everybody is as fortunate to have some tech chops. The BS in this forum has always been up from people who insist that anything that can't be statistically proven or measured has no place in this hobby. Nothing could be more laughable than their myopic bigotry. Even scientists have open minds that there may be other planets in the solar system after Pluto waiting to be discovered. Or that there are smaller particles than an electron or a proton.

Now, as for the technobable and half truths that so entrances the audiosnob community, well, if that's all it takes to convice them to buy something, that's their little red wagon. Simply throwing money into a hobby is no sure way to insure better sound, but for many it seems to work simply because they wish it. I think I'll market audiophile quality Chia pets, which are scientificaly designed to absorb unwanted vibrations when grown exactly to specification and placed according to instructions.

Audiosnobs can very well soak their cables in the blood of female virgins on a full moon somewhere in the Himalayas, for all I care. IF they perceive sonic superiority from those cables that can cost the same as your house per meter, and can afford one, who are you who cannot and will not afford one question them. They're not insisting they have the truth. But you do.

False expectations based on the power of suggestion differ from religion exactly how? Actually, that power of suggestion thing might have more in common with hypnosis. I'm more convinced this is more of an emperor's new clothes thingie going on.

False expectations are just that - expectations that can make your look foolish. So people who are so defensive about the frivolous power claims on theire receivers are just as falsely expectant as those who find sonic superiorities in their cables. The wear the same emperor's new clothes.

True, the receiver's attributes are real, admitted to and can be demonstrated. Now, as to the cable burner? Who is actually the robot here?

Ha, ha. You tell me. The fact that something can be demonstrated and measured suggest it can be done by any robot. OTH, an atribute that requires some imagination has to be made by a human being in the flesh.

Really? then how come you find it so important to try to make your elitist point and wind up face down in the dust every time?

Nope, it's really not so important. I make my elitists points to open up the possibilities that are outside your pathetic world of receivers and zip chords. And I am always amused at the hilarious retort of people who are so cranially challenged as to obviously wallow in their own feces all the time.

Ah, but you do subscribe to them. By trying to compare this voodoo device to receivers you merely prove you DO subscribe to it. See above comment.

I am not surprised that you and your kind who are so defensive about their beloved mass market products entirely missed my point. By comparing the two and juxtaposing the two together on the same plain clearly suggests that this hobby has room for people to enjoy deceptions from both camps. You can deceive yourself with your mass-fi receivers as sounding no different from carvers, meridians and mark levinson separates. And you can deceive yourself thinking that your 100wpc multi channel amplifier measured under 1khz with only two channels driven can sound as mighty as one measured at full bandwidth with all channels driven. I find you no different from people deceiving themselves that this or that cable has better sonic qualities than zip cords. But the double standard that you so conviniently embrace to question the claims of things you cannot afford is so laughably obvious when it is ok for you to accept dubious claims made for things you can afford.

But no matter, snobs like me don't use your kind of gears and I certainly don't mind throwing away money that can indulge my imagination, biases and voodoo charms - something that makes this hobby what it is. An art. Not a science.

 

[Yamahaluver]

Can you seriously buy the $15000 Yamaha NSX-10000 or the $12000 MX-10000? Do you consider them mass market, Mr. Obayashi who is the Ambassador from Japan here and also an avid pianist has a MX-10000 with a NSX-10000 and SS-100 stands, the stands alone cost him $2500. What makes you think if a company through its vast resources can offer something at a competitive rate makes it inferior?

You really live in the clouds thats all.

 

[markw]

Ha, ha. You tell me.

Great quote you have here.

"The fact that something can be demonstrated and measured suggest it can be done by any robot. OTH, an atribute that requires some imagination has to be made by a human being in the flesh."

So, now you're defending Peter Pan and magic pixie dust, eh?

That's the difference between us. I am not so gullible to believe every claim that comes down the pike. Wanna buy a bridge? All ittakes is a little imagination and some money. Likewise, there's some people in Nigeria that would love to get hold of your email address.

Yep, out values are different and that, my friend, pleases me greatly.

 

[av_phile]

Great quote you have here.

"The fact that something can be demonstrated and measured suggest it can be done by any robot. OTH, an atribute that requires some imagination has to be made by a human being in the flesh."

So, now you're defending Peter Pan and magic pixie dust, eh?

That's the difference between us. I am not so gullible to believe every claim that comes down the pike. Wanna buy a bridge? All ittakes is a little imagination and some money. Likewise, there's some people in Nigeria that would love to get hold of your email address.

Yep, out values are different and that, my friend, pleases me greatly.

The objective of this hobby has always been and is the maximum enjoyment you can get from listening to music though some home playback gears. I often wonder who gets the most enjoyment. People who are gullible enough to try most everything that comes their way. Or people who have closed all possibilities that don't conform to their limited undertanding.

 

[toquemon]

Well, yes, Polkfan explained very well why the voltage of "mass market" receivers is overstated; Polkfan informed with logic and understanding what's really happening in this specs war; i understood Polkfan very well and now i know why my Yamaha receiver is capable of delivering only 55 watts per channel all channels driven.
But you, Mr. Av_Phile with your rudeness, the only thing that you provoke is a sterile discussion with no end. All your affirmations were not sustained, typical in people of your kind (as you named one person in this forum). We're trying to take away this mystical-mist to the audio experience; we're trying to tear down this subjetive component that "audiophiles" exploit very well against ignorant people; the only thing that "audiophiles" do is perpetrate the ignominy. Please, be sure that the next statements you invoke are at least minimally sustained (just like Mr. Polkfan does).

 

[markw]

The objective of this hobby has always been and is the maximum enjoyment you can get from listening to music though some home playback gears. I often wonder who gets the most enjoyment. People who are gullible enough to try most everything that comes their way. Or people who have closed all possibilities that don't conform to their limited undertanding.

So, in essense what you are saying is that ignorance (of what's real or not) is bliss. As long as you believe in it, it's real.

In a way you do have a point. I've rarely seen unhappy inmates at mental asylums.

 

[Yamahaluver]

Ignorance is Bliss as the saying goes.