Please describe *Bright *Warm *Neutral sounds

[Buckeyefan 1]

I've read some of your earliest posts. You've had some great debates. I'm glad you've decided to stay on board, as many have left the forum who have argued against you.

I take it you don't have a Monster Cable power conditioner or use their speaker wire?

I wasn't able to find what equipment you use. I never judge members on their equipment, as you may know by previous posts. If you choose to keep it a secret, I'm ok with that. I'd guess you have a mid level Yamaha receiver, probably a year or two old, some Axiom speakers, and an SVS sub. I'm probably way off, but just a guess.

 

[mtrycrafts]

When the amplifier colors the sound bright or warm, what is physically happening?

An amplifier, as I understand it, is supposed to take a signal and make it stronger. Most of the amplifiers discussed in this group are rated as not significantly distorting the audio signal over the range of human hearing. If this is the case, all of the amplfiers should sound the same. Are the ratings untrue? Or is there something happening to the signal that is not measured with the distortion measurements?

Since the amplifiers are putting out an electrical signal, we should be able to hook an oscilliscope up to the the amplifier and quantify the output.

What I would like to see is blind listening session to various amps by experienced listeners who then characterize the sound subjectively (ie same speakers at same SPL with same source with only the amp varying). Then hook the amps up to the oscilliscope and see what is actually happening to give the amp its particular flavor.

Does anyone know if this experiment has been done?

Not as you want it. But, there have been many amp tests, DBT over the past 30 years

We know very well when they cannot be audibly differentiated from one another and when they can be, why that is. Not a mystery to the audio engineers and researchers but it eludes the golden eared audiophiole and the high end community. What do you think would happen when amps cannot be differentiated and this is acknowledged by the audio community???

Many or most of the high end audio tweako companies are history, a footnote in the pages of audio history, if that.

The Audio Critic has almost always have performed such testing, and a number of others:
"Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that MOdern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent", Rich, David and Aczel, Peter, 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

"The Great Debate: Is Anyone Winning?", Nousaine, Tom, Proceedings of the AES, 8th International Conference, 1990.

"Audiolab Test: Six Power Amplifiers", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, May 1977, pg 44-50.

"Audiolab Test: Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, Jun 1981, pg 24-27.

"Do All Amplifiers Sound the Same?", Masters, Ian G., Stereo Review, Jan 1987, pg 78-84.

"Audible Amplifier Distortion is not a Mystery", Baxandall, Peter J., Wireless World, Nov 1977, pg 63-66.

"Amplifier Tests on Test-2, The Panel Game", Colloms, Martin, Hi-Fi News & Record Review, Nov 1978, pg 114-117.

"Amplifier Tests on Test-1, Without Prejudice", Hope, Adrian, Hi-Fi News& Record Reviewe, Nov 1978, pg 110-113.

"Positive Feedback: Rational Amplifier Testing", Walker, P. J., Hi-Fi News & Record Review, Jul 1977, pg 135.

"Some Amplifiers Do Sound Different", Carlstrom, D., Kruger, A., & Greenhill, L., The Audio Amateur, 3/1982, pg 30, 31.

"Equipment Profile", Greenhill, L. & Clark, D., Audio, Apr 1985, pg 56-60, 82-97.

"Power Amplifiers and the Loudspeaker Load",Johnson, J. H., Audio, Aug 1977.

"Amplifier Design & Sound Quality", Holman, Tomlinson, Audio, Nov 1996, pg 26-31.

"The Amp/Speakers Interface, are your Loudspeakers turning your amp into a Tone Control?", Meyers, E. Brad, Stereo Review, Jun 1991, pg 53-56.

"Audio Power Amplifiers for Loudspeaker Loads", Benjamin, Eric, Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, vol 42, No. 9, Sep 1994, pg 670-683.

"A New Look at Medium and High-Priced Power Amplifiers", Rich, David, The Audio Critic, #20, Summer 93, pg 14.

"Reasonably Priced Pre amplifiers for the Reasonable AudiophilesRich, David, ", The Audio Critic, #18, Spring/Summer 1992.

Amp Tests, Boston Audio Society Speaker, Vol 21, No.2, pg 18-20, Sep 1997.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yamaha is neutral, attach it to a wrong speaker and its' treble gets brighter and so does its mids, Yamaha bases its sound in particular Q from its musical instruments and if you give the Yamaha amps proper speakers, nothing comes close to it's accuracy.

So then, at its RMS power output the frequency response is not flat? Is this supported by the specs? Is the output impedance unstable into different speakers? Curious minds want to know

 

[mtrycrafts]

No recommendations as such, just audition your choice and get the one that sounds closest to accurate to your ears,

So, it is rather subjective then if this Yam is neutral or not? Or, can it be tested whith bias controlled conditions to arrive at an objective result???


Careful audition is a must, what may sound good with one CD may not with others,

HUH???
You mean a CD will alter the sound of the amp? How is this possible???

take a varied collection and thoroughly audition the speakers for couple of days, once you find one that appeals to you, day in/day out, get that.

So, the speakers may be the problem then, not the amp???

 

[mtrycrafts]

P.S.: It is possible that I am an alien from Mars, pretending to be human by socializing on this forum. But what is probable?

Stop pulling our chain and tell us when the invasion is scheduled. Please

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think some are confusing what causes units to sound laid back as opposed to lively. It's not the amplifier, but the pre-amp that colors the sound..

And therefore this event cannot be measured in a pre amp? You mean a pre amps frequency response is not flat? How can that be??? Is it rocket science?

 

[mtrycrafts]

As for distortion, it is rare that any amplifier will produce distortion that is audible unless it is driven into clipping or it is of extraordinarly poor design(SET). -Chris

Don't forget Soaring Audio SLC A300, $3400. The Audio Critic had a review recently. No listening as the distortion goes from .5%-3.5%. What a bargain at $3400, LOL

 

[mtrycrafts]

You've had some great debates. I'm glad you've decided to stay on board, as many have left the forum who have argued against you.

That is their loss Apparently they were not here to learn

I take it you don't have a Monster Cable power conditioner or use their speaker wire?

Nothing wrong with their speaker wires, they work great

I'd guess you have a mid level Yamaha receiver, probably a year or two old, some Axiom speakers, and an SVS sub. I'm probably way off, but just a guess.

Nothing wrong with the SVS sub, it is a great sub, as a matter of fact.
Axiom speakers had good reviews by good people

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

And therefore this event cannot be measured in a pre amp? You mean a pre amps frequency response is not flat? How can that be??? Is it rocket science?

Mtry,

I know it's probably impossible to set a 1970's Marantz receiver flat to compare it to a modern two channel KLH receiver set flat. But having the experience you do, don't you agree the two receivers have an extremely different sound when played through the same speaker at the same level? Would this difference, if you agree, have anything to do with the pre amp section of the two receivers? I've got to give you credit in a DBX test that you could tell the difference between the two if I set the bass and treble to zero on the Marantz, and set the KLH to flat factory settings. The science of specs is absolute - I'll never argue that. To assume factory settings on a given receiver are flat is ignorant, if you agree with me getting the two set equally is almost impossible.

 

[WmAx]

I've read some of your earliest posts. You've had some great debates. I'm glad you've decided to stay on board, as many have left the forum who have argued against you.

This is a great forum(IMO). I intend to stay for so long as they don't adopt a policy similar to Audio Asylum or Audioreview which prohibits logical discussion under many circumstances, apparently in order to comfort the fragile feellings of audiophiles.

I take it you don't have a Monster Cable power conditioner or use their speaker wire?

I might have a Monster Cable product, not sure, I have so many differnt cables and adapters in boxes that I don't have a clue really.

My signature(if that's what you are referring to) is a bi-product of the deplorable business practices of the Monster Cable company.

I wasn't able to find what equipment you use. I never judge members on their equipment, as you may know by previous posts. If you choose to keep it a secret, I'm ok with that. I'd guess you have a mid level Yamaha receiver, probably a year or two old, some Axiom speakers, and an SVS sub. I'm probably way off, but just a guess.

Nothing wrong with those products. But, way off with the exception of a mid-level reciever(which I bought at a Goodwill for $25.00) which I used to replace both my Stereophile recommended preamp and my audiophile amplifier.

-Chris

 

[Yamahaluver]

mtrycrafts,

I am an illiterate person and my assessment is totally subjective based on my vague and illogical assumptions, but in all fairness, let the potential buyer decide what is good for him/her.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mtry,

I know it's probably impossible to set a 1970's Marantz receiver flat to compare it to a modern two channel KLH receiver set flat. But having the experience you do, don't you agree the two receivers have an extremely different sound when played through the same speaker at the same level? Would this difference, if you agree, have anything to do with the pre amp section of the two receivers? I've got to give you credit in a DBX test that you could tell the difference between the two if I set the bass and treble to zero on the Marantz, and set the KLH to flat factory settings. The science of specs is absolute - I'll never argue that. To assume factory settings on a given receiver are flat is ignorant, if you agree with me getting the two set equally is almost impossible.

Is this Marantz from the 70s? I don't follow the components that closely

It would not have to be as flat as todays components as long as it is flat in the midbands and flat enough to be below JND levels of detection. JND at 16kHz is 3dB spl and similar in the sub section.
Now if they are different due to Fr deviation, then it is still not a myster, no magic involved
You are correct, factory settings may not be flat, who knows until measured.

But, just because the component is from the 70s doesn't mean it may sound different.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts,

I am an illiterate person and my assessment is totally subjective based on my vague and illogical assumptions, but in all fairness, let the potential buyer decide what is good for him/her.

Now you may be convincing me about what you printed. Humor may be over my head
Nothing wrong with the buyer deciding what is good for them. But, when people claim testable claims for products, stand by to be challenged

 

[Yamahaluver]

Never made any claims, just my experience for anyone interested, just as subjective as some people claim some esoterica and high end stuff to be.

I am totally an uneducated man and will never challenge someone of your stature.

 

[tbewick]

In response to WmAx's 'total magic distortion' comment, I'll quote from the book I read about Hi-fi which described this type of distortion.

'Audio Amplifiers - ...Other types of distortion have gained prominence recently and are of a more subtle nature because they only occur under certain transient conditions and therefore do not show up with the more traditional 'steady state' measuring techniques. These phenomena have been given various names such as transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) and slewing induced distortion (SID).'

Practical Hi-Fi Sound, by Rodger Driscoll, 1980.

As you can see, this book is fairly old and I don't know if these types of distortion are still a problem in more modern hi-fi systems.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

As I recall, a lot was made of transient intermodulation distortion in the '80s, but since then it has been accorded less importance in the light of further research.

Basically, it's real but of little audible impact with most program material. And modern designs minimize it.

Back to the original question: "bright" is generally accepted as referring to sound with emphasised high frequencies. It's a useful shorthand term for a real phenomenon, but I find many subjective terms to be so vague as to be useless. Like "warm", for instance. To me, "warm" applied to audio gear means it can double as a space heater.

Too many audio equipment reviews sound like pretentious wine reviews, IMO. But at least in wine and food, the terms usually have some meaning related to actual tastes, textures, and odors. I can understand a wine having 'chocolatey' flavor notes, but not a speaker with a 'chocolatey' midrange! When I read that kind of audio gear review my reaction is, "oh, fudge!".

 

[WmAx]

In response to WmAx's 'total magic distortion' comment, I'll quote from the book I read about Hi-fi which described this type of distortion.

'Audio Amplifiers - ...Other types of distortion have gained prominence recently and are of a more subtle nature because they only occur under certain transient conditions and therefore do not show up with the more traditional 'steady state' measuring techniques. These phenomena have been given various names such as transient intermodulation distortion (TIM) and slewing induced distortion (SID).'

Slew induced distortion, a.k.a. T.I.M. distortion, is easily calculated with basic slew rate calculations that are part of basic electronics design. It is also easily observable if it exists: it results in a drastic increase in T.H.D. as frequency rises. Other(seemingly over complex, but more analytical of the behaviour of this distortion) methods exist to measure this as well. Either way, this hardly qualifies as an unmeasurable parameter.

-Chris

 

[tbewick]

Cheers for explaining that to me.

I think that those terms 'bright', 'warm', etc. have some origin in recording/mixing studios. For example, a recording high in the 100Hz region has a 'fat' sound, and very high frequencies +10kHz are 'stratospheric'. Peaks around 8kHz lend a sharpness to the recording, and ~70Hz peaks increase boominess.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Remember also that reproducing music/vocals is quite difficult for the amp to do, because the signals involved are transient.

Wait. Isn't that what the amp is DESIGNED to do? Reproduce music? Otherwise what is the point of this whole hobby? You mean after, what is it now? 80? 90? or more years of trying to reproduce music they haven't advanced since the days of the Victrola?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Never made any claims,

Maybe not now or ever, don't keep track
But my post was generic, 'people' making claims, right?

just my experience for anyone interested,


Yes, of course. But, experiences can be unreliable, right?
Now if my experience with Sylvia Brown was that I believed her reading, does that make her reading factual or just an unreliable experience that I was taken in?

I am totally an uneducated man and will never challenge someone of your stature.

Well, I doubt you are uneducated and I don't have stature, just some history on the nets