Please describe *Bright *Warm *Neutral sounds

[James_Stewart]

I'm just starting my venture into audiophile world. I'm familiar with the terms yet I'm not sure how to pinpoint them. My goal is to achieve the most realistic sound so I'm trying to educate myself, I've read alot but I haven't found any threads discussing this question.

I'm currently using a Pioneer 1014 with Aperion satellite speakers (1" Audiophile-Grade Silk-Dome Tweeter
4” Custom Poly Midrange).

What do I listen for to conclude what is bright, warm, or neutral?

What determines bright, warm, and neutral?

Do you experts test with a certain DVD for HT and a certain CD for music?

~james

 

[zipper]

In a nutshell...................


.....bright would mean an emphasis on the higher frequencies....warm would be the opposite, also referred to as "laid back"........& neutral, of course would be a good balance. You'll no doubt eventually hear the word "sibilant", which basically refers to an excessive "sssssss" in vocals.

Klipsch speakers, due to the use of horns as drivers, are often labeled as "bright" or "forward", but combined with the proper gear can sound very nice & neutral.

 

[Cygnus]

Do Denon's have a warm sound to them? I think i remember a few people saying this. But i cant remember..

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Best to do a google search on this topic

Do Denon's have a warm sound to them? I think i remember a few people saying this. But i cant remember..

I'm going to get blasted once again for this, but here goes:

Higher end HK, Marantz, Denon, all B&K and NAD are more laid back (I didn't say warm).

Yamaha, Rotel, Pioneer are on the more lively side (notice I didn't say bright).

The brightest receivers always seem to be the mid to lower end units. Pioneer Elites and Yamaha V and Z series (I've already been blasted on the Elite issue) are much more subtle compared to their sub $400 counterparts.

If you don't believe me, do a google search for bright receivers, warm receivers, or use the word subtle, laid back, etc...

You can choose a laid back receiver and pair it up with lively speakers, as well as choose a bright receiver and pair it with warm speakers. Metal and horn loaded tweeters are bright. Dome tweeters tend to be warm.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Higher end HK, Marantz, Denon, all B&K and NAD are more laid back (I didn't say warm).

Yamaha, Rotel, Pioneer are on the more lively side (notice I didn't say bright).

So in other words, all of them are basically crap if your goal is neutrality, right?

 

[patnshan]

I'm going to get blasted once again for this, but here goes:

Higher end HK, Marantz, Denon, all B&K and NAD are more laid back (I didn't say warm).

Yamaha, Rotel, Pioneer are on the more lively side (notice I didn't say bright).

The brightest receivers always seem to be the mid to lower end units. Pioneer Elites and Yamaha V and Z series (I've already been blasted on the Elite issue) are much more subtle compared to their sub $400 counterparts.

If you don't believe me, do a google search for bright receivers, warm receivers, or use the work subtle, laid back, etc...

You can choose a laid back receiver and pair it up with lively speakers, as well as choose a bright receiver and pair it with warm speakers. Metal and horn loaded tweeters are bright. Dome tweeters tend to be warm.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but have similar questions. I just got one of those bada@$ SR8400's from UBID. I plan to use my AAL and B(l)ose bookshelves I have now for awhile, but looking to upgrade. I was thinking about Klipsch, which are often thought of as bright. Good mix, Marantz and Klipsch?

Pat

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

So in other words, all of them are basically crap if your goal is neutrality, right?

Not at all. The upper end jap brands as well as the UK/US brands have a pure direct, or direct option that is extremely neutral. Neutral is relative, because you may have the perfect receiver, the perfect speakers, and have it hooked up in a basement with concrete walls and floors. Guess what, you have a bright system.

The difference in room acoustics and setup has more effect on sound than does an extremely mellow receiver compared to a lively lower end model (at moderate listening levels). Mid to high end receivers have so much flexibility today, that you can get most of them to sound similar with the proper parametric eq settings. What you can't do is turn a horn tweeter into a dome or ribbon. If your Klipsch Horns are too bright on a pure direct setting, take a look at your room. You may benefit from an area rug, window coverings, or tapestries - WAF is very high with tapestries! On the opposite end of the spectrum, you may have a dead room like mine. Leather furniture, berber carpeting, an oak wall entertainment center, window coverings. Talk about lack of reverb. I can really benefit from a few dedicated tweeters. This is where a mid to higher end receiver is needed - to fill the room with undistorted mid and high notes. Budget end receivers will tend to distort the highs in a large room with lower sensitivity speakers like my Polks, or Paradigms for example. A manager of a local high end shop once told me the best way to demo an amp or high end receiver was to take a set of Senheissers in with a personal cd. Headphones don't lie.

 

[Yamahaluver]

Yamaha is neutral, attach it to a wrong speaker and its' treble gets brighter and so does its mids, Yamaha bases its sound in particular Q from its musical instruments and if you give the Yamaha amps proper speakers, nothing comes close to it's accuracy.

Having said that, sound is highly subjective issue, what is bright to others is accurate to some, what is warm to some is dull and non-musical to others.

All a matter of perceptions and belief.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

So, does Yamaha therefore recommend speakers that it sounds neutral with?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Do Denon's have a warm sound to them? I think i remember a few people saying this. But i cant remember..

If it did, it would show up in th efrequency response measurements. It doesn't, so the what peole say are just audio voodoo, hype, bs and mythology. Denon is a well designed component, hence is transparent.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So in other words, all of them are basically crap if your goal is neutrality, right?

Only if you believe the urban legends of audioworld
I on the other hand dismiss it as it would show up on the FR specs. They don't.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but have similar questions. I just got one of those bada@$ SR8400's from UBID. I plan to use my AAL and B(l)ose bookshelves I have now for awhile, but looking to upgrade. I was thinking about Klipsch, which are often thought of as bright. Good mix, Marantz and Klipsch?

Pat

Sure it is a good mix. Marantz knows how to design components. It is transparent, period.

 

[Yamahaluver]

So, does Yamaha therefore recommend speakers that it sounds neutral with?

No recommendations as such, just audition your choice and get the one that sounds closest to accurate to your ears, remember, it is you who have to live with your choice, so make sure to do it right. Careful audition is a must, what may sound good with one CD may not with others, take a varied collection and thoroughly audition the speakers for couple of days, once you find one that appeals to you, day in/day out, get that.

 

[tbewick]

I do not entirely agree with what some people have posted here. It is possible that an amplifier may produce distortion that is not measurable (non steady-state) and is therefore not listed in its specifications. Remember also that reproducing music/vocals is quite difficult for the amp to do, because the signals involved are transient.

Apparently even though most speakers have distortion ratings greater than that of the amplifier, the distortion produced by the speaker sounds less unpleasant. This is because amplifiers tend to distort in the higher frequencies (very audible) whereas speakers tend to distort the lower frequencies (less unpleasant).

You may find the Bowers and Wilkins website helpful, as it has a good FAQ page.

Most of the amplifiers I've listened sound almost identical to one another, but they've mostly been mid-range amps. They sound okay with vinyl, but bad with digital (harsh), perhaps because of the higher demands of playing back high frequencies sounds in CD's/DVD's. I've got a Quad 303 which I hope to get fixed one day to try out. In its day, it was supposed to be a very capable amplifier.

 

[cgk]

coloring of sound by amplifiers

When the amplifier colors the sound bright or warm, what is physically happening?

An amplifier, as I understand it, is supposed to take a signal and make it stronger. Most of the amplifiers discussed in this group are rated as not significantly distorting the audio signal over the range of human hearing. If this is the case, all of the amplfiers should sound the same. Are the ratings untrue? Or is there something happening to the signal that is not measured with the distortion measurements?

Since the amplifiers are putting out an electrical signal, we should be able to hook an oscilliscope up to the the amplifier and quantify the output.

What I would like to see is blind listening session to various amps by experienced listeners who then characterize the sound subjectively (ie same speakers at same SPL with same source with only the amp varying). Then hook the amps up to the oscilliscope and see what is actually happening to give the amp its particular flavor.

Does anyone know if this experiment has been done?

 

[WmAx]

It is possible that an amplifier may produce distortion that is not measurable ....

Is this this what is known as T.M.D.(Total Magical Distortion)?

-Chris

P.S.: It is possible that I am an alien from Mars, pretending to be human by socializing on this forum. But what is probable?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I think some are confusing what causes units to sound laid back as opposed to lively. It's not the amplifier, but the pre-amp that colors the sound.

Here's the skinny on amplifiers.

Some will argue a Krell Evo 1 amp will improve the sound of a KLH "Best Buy" receiver (assuming it has a pre out) if driven at 1 watt, powering a pair of Magnapans. Some will say the headroom may improve. In theory, it should not at these low levels. Now if a Krell preamp is introduced, then one may notice a difference in coloration between the KLH and Krell. Hopefully no one on this site would ever pair the KLH receiver with a set of Maggies. But you never know.

Distortion is the largest factor in dealing with amplification. There are many choices of amplifiers listed by class. As the classes expand, the distortion levels usually increase (A-AB-B-C-D etc...). Class A amplifiers usually operate with the least amount of crossover distortion. Are they audible for our purposes? Typically not, unless you are looking, for example, for an acoustic guitar amp, then a class A or AB amplifier is generally recommended. Class B suffers from a fundamental problem in that the push-pull amplifier does not, in practice, move smoothly from one half of the waveform to the other half. Class AB type amplifiers are more popular because of a balance of increased efficiency as well as lower crossover distortion. Leading class A amplifiers generate more heat at the same power output as a class AB. As a rule of thumb, the cleaner the amp, the less distortion, the more heat generated, thus the requirement for larger heat sinks. Type B are even more efficient, but at a cost. It could take 10 class A amplifiers to output what one class B amplifier outputs. Perfect for those large subs.

As the old addage goes, you usually get what you pay for. In economics, you must also take into account the law of diminishing returns. The music and movies we listen to generally does not require a class A amplifier. Esoterics will say they don't listen to our music and movies. They also elevate their speaker cables from the ground.

 

[WmAx]

As the old addage goes, you usually get what you pay for.

I'll put up a budget 2 channel KLH $100 reciever against a multi-thousand dollar amplifier any day in a proper blind test. The only catch is my requirement to use an equalizer on the $100 reciever so that I can copy any non-linearities that may exist in the audiophile device or that if any audible noises(like hiss) exist, that the test will not be carried out since the hiss would give one of them away by default. Also, neither of the devices may be operated into a range where they clip.

Same goes for preamplifiers.

As for distortion, it is rare that any amplifier will produce distortion that is audible unless it is driven into clipping or it is of extraordinarly poor design(SET).

The only time I've noticed these audiophile terms of sound is when I let my imagination flow freely. Amazing what a sufficient blinded test can do for that little problem.

-Chris

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

WmAx,

You chose a statement in which I italicized the work "usually." I think you may have taken what I said out of context. I am not counter attacking what you've said earlier.

What's your opinion on this amplifier? Esoteric, or legitimate technology worth $1799?

www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw1022.asp

Out of curiosity, what equipment are you running - from receiver to speakers to dvd/cd players?

 

[WmAx]

You chose a statement in which I italicized the work "usually." I think you may have taken what I said out of context. I am not counter attacking what you've said earlier.

Perhaps I did misapply your statement. I apologzie if that is the case. I meant, that in regards to amplifiers or preamplifers(for this thread), that so far as sound quality is concerned you do not typically get what you pay for usually, since equivalent results can be achieved with very low cost hardware as compared to high cost hardware. But, if applying your statement to build quality, asthetics and features, then your statement could be applied rather accurately, I suspect.

What's your opinion on this amplifier? Esoteric, or legitimate technology worth $1799?

www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw1022.asp

You can achieve similar power output with professional audio amplifiers for less than half that cost. However, if the claims of the manufacturer are accurate, then it would seem to be a good deal, especially considering the nice build quality.

Out of curiosity, what equipment are you running - from receiver to speakers to dvd/cd players?

I do not discuss such things on prompt, only when I (1) feel that it is directly relevant to the merit of the discussion [or] (2) mention such in a casual manner as socialization. I have mentioned several products I use in this forum in the past under both such circumstances.

-Chris