Picking a surge protector

G

griffinconst

Senior Audioholic
How do you figure out the amount of jules you need?
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
How do you figure out the amount of jules you need?
Um? just get an APC and move on. I don't think you need to worry yourself with Joules. I've never exceeded it. And Unless your running multiple subs I doubt you will either.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Look for a joule rating of at least 600 minimum.

Find a surge protector that states it is a "transient voltage surge suppressor" and meets criteria for UL-1449.

Also a clamping voltage of 400V or less. The lower the better. 330V is about the lowest, any lower and the MOV's will go bad early, from over use.

Another nice feature is an indicator light that tells you the protection components are still functioning.
 
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F

farout

Audioholic Intern
farout here

apc surge make good smoke detectors. mine went off the other day with the loudess buzz you ever heard. back to store.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
And do your best to not be standing in a puddle at the time:D:D:eek:
Why that is no fun........LOL!!!!! :D:D Standing in a puddle of water keeps it interesting, if not down right shocking!!!!! :eek::D:eek: Go all out I always say!!!! ;);)


Cheers,

Phil
 
C

ChunkyDark

Full Audioholic
Keep an eye out for the apc h15 in silver. They can be had for 100-150 shipped. Even if you are in the camp that power conditioning doesn't do anything, it is a hell of a surge protector. And has pretty lights :p
Living on the fringe I notice it going into boost mode (up'ing power to 120v) an unsettling amount of time.
 
S

SB Patrick

Audiophyte
overthinking

Add up your watts. Give yourself a 30% overhead in capacity. Buy a APC pro unit. Forget about it until it tells you to trade in the battery. Don't spend time thinking about what engineers have already worked out.
You don't say what your risks are, or if you would rather build it yourself, but unless you have something weird in the former, or are the latter, you have already spent too much time on the subject.
 
V

Vracer111

Audioholic
Add up your watts. Give yourself a 30% overhead in capacity. Buy a APC pro unit. Forget about it until it tells you to trade in the battery. Don't spend time thinking about what engineers have already worked out.
You don't say what your risks are, or if you would rather build it yourself, but unless you have something weird in the former, or are the latter, you have already spent too much time on the subject.
What SB Patrick says - figure out how much watts the sysyem is pulling under full load (I used my 850 watt computer UPS with LCD display to verify load with all components on) and pick up an APC UPS that can handle that + a margin.

I have two UPS, one soley for my projector and another one for the Receiver, DVD Player, XBOX and subwoofer.
 
T

tonydahose

Audioholic Intern
i was looking for one and found this on slickdeals.net....is this a decent one? if so go ahead and put in the deals section as it would not let me as i am too new and guessing you guys got sick of newbies registering to post their commercials on your site.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11378196

as far as the coax cable is concerned i have a directv high def dvr and it uses 2 inputs so would you even bother plugging only one into the power strip?
 
Hi Ho

Hi Ho

Audioholic Samurai
The APC C series is good and that is a good price. I wouldn't go with anything cheaper from APC. Their cheaper stuff is not impressive.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
How do you figure out the amount of jules you need?
The OP asked this simple question that no one answered. Why? Because an overwhelming majority will recommend ineffective protectors only on hearsay. When does anyone ask, "What does it do?" Will that silly little protector stop what three miles of sky could not? That is why we install surge protectors - so that significant protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed by the rare and so destructive surge.

So many using hearsay recommended that APC. Where does APC claim any protection in its numeric specs? It does not. It cannot and does not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge.

The OP asked a damning question that a majority never bothered to ask. Had they asked, nobody would have recommended the APC. Will those few hundred joules inside an APC absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Again, that is what a majority claim because they ignored the numbers.

Show me the APC numeric specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge. Why do telcos, with computers connected to overhead wires all over town, not waste money on those APC products? Telcos spend tens and 100 times less money for protectors that make even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Each thunderstorm means about 100 surges - and no damage. How often has phone service in your town been gone for four days while they replace that computer? Never? Because for over 100 years, protection has always been about earthing - not some magic box protectors.

What does the effective protector do? It must be located short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. No sharp wire bends. No splices. Separated from all other wires. Every sentence defines more reasons why telcos do not waste money on the APC. And why APC does not even claim that protection.

The NIST (a US government research agency) is even blunter:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in
> the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

APC will not even discuss earth ground for good reason. The APC has NO earthing. Too far from earth ground and too close to appliances.

Energy: either that energy dissipated harmlessly in earth; does not enter the building. Or you let that energy inside where it hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances. Your choice. Or why munitions dumps do not waste tens or 100 times more money on ineffective protectors recommended only on hearsay.

How many joules? Will that UPS absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Of course not. So it does not even claim to protect from the typically destructive surges.

APC is recommended only on hearsay. Those near zero joules means it protects from a surge that is not destructive. That is sufficient to claim "Surge Protection" is big letters in a sales brochure. Anyone who wants to be scammed never asked for the numbers. Near zero joules is enough to claim surge protection. Then the naive hype this into massive protection. Same hearsay that also proved Saddam had WMDs.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A concept that has not changed for over 100 years. A concept ignored to sell scam protectors for obscene profits. How many joules in that protector? When did anyone answer the OP’s question?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
That is why we install surge protectors - so that significant protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed by the rare and so destructive surge.
No, though that may be why *you* do. I'm more concerned with the far more common dips (and occasionally spikes), caused by other power loads (the AC compressor coming on), and backbone failures (transformer blew down the street) and lightning that struck somewhere else in the line (breakers tripped and power re-routed) than the much-more-rare "direct hit".

So many using hearsay recommended that APC. Where does APC claim any protection in its numeric specs? It does not. It cannot and does not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge.
From http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=12&segmentID=1

"Surge Protection Devices
Protection from damaging power transients for residential, business and industrial applications "

The OP asked a damning question that a majority never bothered to ask. Had they asked, nobody would have recommended the APC. Will those few hundred joules inside an APC absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Again, that is what a majority claim because they ignored the numbers.
4.7 Giga-Joule hits are not the norm in power spikes. If you are concerned about this, most power-companies offer home lightning-protectors which will reduce this surge to something that an APC unit can handle (though still enough to fry unprotected electronics).

For most of us, this mitigates surge is what we are already dealing with. As you point out in a minute: the power companies already have in-line surge protection for the direct lightning strike. It's what gets through that (a much smaller surge and dip) that most of us are concerned with.

Show me the APC numeric specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge.
For each? Browse their website yourself. For one at random?

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PML4S-A

Why do telcos, with computers connected to overhead wires all over town, not waste money on those APC products? Telcos spend tens and 100 times less money for protectors that make even direct lightning strikes irrelevant.
This is, simply put, a lie. Direct strikes fry equipment.

Each thunderstorm means about 100 surges - and no damage. How often has phone service in your town been gone for four days while they replace that computer?
How often has it gone out at all? A redundant system is not a surge-immune system.

But to answer your question: Hurricane Charlie, Hurricane Ivan, ...

What does the effective protector do? It must be located short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground.
How does this grounding prevent a brown-out from damaging my equipment again?

APC will not even discuss earth ground for good reason. The APC has NO earthing. Too far from earth ground and too close to appliances.
http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PML4S-A&tab=documentation

Installation and operation: Page 10

Energy: either that energy dissipated harmlessly in earth; does not enter the building. Or you let that energy inside where it hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances. Your choice. Or why munitions dumps do not waste tens or 100 times more money on ineffective protectors recommended only on hearsay.
Because munitions are not electronic devices plugged in to mains power?

How many joules? Will that UPS absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Of course not. So it does not even claim to protect from the typically destructive surges.
From APC
"APC uses the eP Joule Rating because we do not simply 'absorb' the surge like some other surge products might. Our products are designed to redirect the surge back to ground instead of absorbing it and incorporate a let through voltage, which is the maximum transient voltage the attached equipment will be subjected to above the normal RMS voltage. Any remaining voltage is redirected to ground."

APC is recommended only on hearsay. Those near zero joules means it protects from a surge that is not destructive. That is sufficient to claim "Surge Protection" is big letters in a sales brochure. Anyone who wants to be scammed never asked for the numbers. Near zero joules is enough to claim surge protection. Then the naive hype this into massive protection. Same hearsay that also proved Saddam had WMDs.
Oddly, I've yet to loose a single piece of equipment attached to an APC UPS as the result of a surge crossing the power line despite having 5 computers, 2 HTs, a stereo, and living my entire life in the lightning capitol of the western hemisphere (SW Florida)

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A concept that has not changed for over 100 years. A concept ignored to sell scam protectors for obscene profits. How many joules in that protector? When did anyone answer the OP’s question?
How many joules in an Earth ground?

I don't know what the owner of APC did to you personally to upset you so; but your rant is dishonest.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
The OP asked this simple question that no one answered. Why? Because an overwhelming majority will recommend ineffective protectors only on hearsay. When does anyone ask, "What does it do?" Will that silly little protector stop what three miles of sky could not? That is why we install surge protectors - so that significant protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed by the rare and so destructive surge.

So many using hearsay recommended that APC. Where does APC claim any protection in its numeric specs? It does not. It cannot and does not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge.

The OP asked a damning question that a majority never bothered to ask. Had they asked, nobody would have recommended the APC. Will those few hundred joules inside an APC absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Again, that is what a majority claim because they ignored the numbers.

Show me the APC numeric specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge. Why do telcos, with computers connected to overhead wires all over town, not waste money on those APC products? Telcos spend tens and 100 times less money for protectors that make even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Each thunderstorm means about 100 surges - and no damage. How often has phone service in your town been gone for four days while they replace that computer? Never? Because for over 100 years, protection has always been about earthing - not some magic box protectors.

What does the effective protector do? It must be located short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. No sharp wire bends. No splices. Separated from all other wires. Every sentence defines more reasons why telcos do not waste money on the APC. And why APC does not even claim that protection.

The NIST (a US government research agency) is even blunter:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in
> the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

APC will not even discuss earth ground for good reason. The APC has NO earthing. Too far from earth ground and too close to appliances.

Energy: either that energy dissipated harmlessly in earth; does not enter the building. Or you let that energy inside where it hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances. Your choice. Or why munitions dumps do not waste tens or 100 times more money on ineffective protectors recommended only on hearsay.

How many joules? Will that UPS absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Of course not. So it does not even claim to protect from the typically destructive surges.

APC is recommended only on hearsay. Those near zero joules means it protects from a surge that is not destructive. That is sufficient to claim "Surge Protection" is big letters in a sales brochure. Anyone who wants to be scammed never asked for the numbers. Near zero joules is enough to claim surge protection. Then the naive hype this into massive protection. Same hearsay that also proved Saddam had WMDs.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A concept that has not changed for over 100 years. A concept ignored to sell scam protectors for obscene profits. How many joules in that protector? When did anyone answer the OP’s question?
So you work for APC's competitor. How about you provide some data to back up your crazy claims.

Pay no attention to this post. I use APC products exclusively for my power strips and UPS systems. They work and they work well. APC products have saved my bacon from storms and power drops many times.

I have years of use on my side proving their use.

Plus their stuff has been taken apart and shown to be well made.

I don't know where you studied electrical engineering, but it must have been a crazy place.
 
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W

westom

Audioholic
No, though that may be why *you* do. I'm more concerned with the far more common dips (and occasionally spikes), caused by other power loads (the AC compressor coming on), and backbone failures (transformer blew down the street) and lightning that struck somewhere else in the line (breakers tripped and power re-routed) than the much-more-rare "direct hit".
Lightning striking down the street is a direct strike to your appliances. Brownouts (sags) are not destructive despite the many who know otherwise (but cannot say why). International standards even in the 1970s for electronics required low voltage to cause no electronics damage. The chart is even blunter. The low voltage area has this phrase in capital letters: "No Damage Region". We who designed electronics even test everything by routinely running the voltage as low as possible to learn when the electronics cut out - of course with no damage.

And finally, if brownouts are destructive, the classic brownout (or sag or low voltage) is called power off. Every electronics device suffers brownouts when powered off. If brownouts were destructive, then power off would also be destructive.

Low voltage is harmful to electric motors. That is why utility voltages cannot dip below 5% for any extended time. Meanwhile, electronic standards state that it must work just fine - even start normally - when voltages are so low that incandescent bulbs are at 40%.

How many reasons state that low voltage is not destructive? And yet still the popular urban myth: hardware must be protected from low voltage. Reality. Hardware must be designed to make low voltage irrelevant. The UPS has only one function - to protect data from blackouts.

Meanwhile, quoting something from the APC sales brochure demonstrates where knowledge comes from - sales propaganda. There are no numbers in that subjective claim for very good reason. It protects from a type of transient that causes no damage. APC will never claim protection in numeric specs because, well, those few hundred joules will absorb destructive surges of hundreds of thousands of joules?

All electronics contain protection from silly and irrelevant transients. Surge protection is for the surge that can damage appliances - ie the direct lightning strike. That protection - that costs many times less than the APC - is what professionals use. My spend tens or 100 times more money for an APC that does not even claim to protection from the typically destructive surges. See the either myth about low voltage causing damage - which is why so many spend massively on a protector that does not even claim protection.

We expect no damage - even to the protector - with direct lightning strikes. Lesser transients are made irrelevant by protection routinely in appliances. Protection required even in 1960 electronics standards. Even dimmer switches and bathroom GFCIs have internal protection.

If APC provides any numbers that claim protection, then the exact spec is posted here. Why the URL? Typically, the poster has no idea which spec might claim surge protection. And so a vague, "Browse their website yourself" - because APC cannot and does not claim protection.

As the NIST said:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if
> grounding is not done properly.
That defines the APC devices recommended by those who even believed the myth about destructive brownouts.

Why is APC not grounded? Earthing means a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. No wire splices. No sharp bends, Wire separated from all other non ground wires. Separation between protector and appliances. Better earthing. Every sentence violated by APC products.

What happens when the protector is too close to electronics? We engineers who traces these failures so that it never happened again found the plug-in protector earthing that surge destructively through a network of powered off computers. Why does your telco operate through every thunderstorm and about 100 surges per storm without damage. Telcos instead spend many times less money, connect each protector to single point earth ground, and then make the protection even better with an up to 50 meter separation between protector and electronics.

Therefore telcos suffer direct lightning strikes and no damage. No damage from direct lightning strikes is routine when one learns what protection really is.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent parts. That is sold for $7 in grocery stores. Or the same protector circuit sells for $25 or $150. APC protector circuit is same as the circuit selling in grocery stores for $7. Why does Monster Cable also sell the same thing? Monster Cable is famous for their scams including speaker wire with polarity. Monster Cable also want a piece of the action when so many just *know* it must work - convinced by subjective claims.

Why do munitions dumps also use what telcos use? Because all want protection. All do not want to spend tens or 100 times more money on the APC ... that does not even claim protection in numeric specs.

Protection routinely installed where no damage can happen - where was much of this pioneered? Munitions dumps. You can spend massively on the APC. Or you can use the superior solution even used in munitions dumps - and spend less money.

And finally, he claims no damage with APC stuff. Well, I have no plug-in protectors anywhere and never have damage. One friend even had 33,000 volts fall on the local distributions. Hundreds of electric meters literally blown 30 feet of the side of buildings. Many neighbors suffered electronics damage and destroyed APC protectors. He had no damage. Instead he had one properly earthed 'whole house' protector. He spent much less money, had a real surge, and no damage.

But then he had a friend who actually learned this stuff some decades ago. Someone who read numeric spec sheets, saw which protectors claim near zero protection, and advised him to avoid the scam.

How to identify the ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated wire always necessary for the short connection to earth. Not just any ground - earth ground. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earth ground. 3) It claims no protection from each type of surge - with numbers - in the manufacture specs. That defines the APC protectors - three times over.

Effective protector is located when each wire enters the building. Some utilities (ie cable) need no protector. Cable makes that less than 10 foot connection to earth with only a wire. Telco already installed a 'whole house' protector on every incoming phone wire - for free. But the most common source of surges is AC mains. Highest wires on utility poles mean a lightning strike down the street is a direct strike to all household appliances. Informed consumers install one 'whole house' protector on AC mains.

But again, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth ground (ie APC) means no effective protection. You - the homeowner - are responsible for providing sufficient earthing. Earthing that must both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. And connections from each protector that meet the many 'low impedance' requirements - ie 'less than 10 feet', no sharp wire bends, etc. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Why does APC not discuss critical parameter for protection - no sharp wire bends? APC is about profit margins - not protection.
 
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