Picking a surge protector

[westom]

APC offers lighting strike insurance for it's consumer customers up to 10,000 dollars. I believe Belkin does the same.

Best warranties were available on GM cars. That proves GM has better quality than Honda and Toyota? That is your reasoning?

Read that APC warranty. So chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. Hyped because some will assume a warranty is better than numeric specs. Nonsense. That APC warranty if for the naive who want to believe without learning facts. Facts. One APC warranty even said a protector from any other manufacturer in the building voided the warranty. Did you read the fine print? That warranty is written to not be honored – so that you will not read its tech specs. Specs that claim no protection.

Others learned about that APC protection, the resulting damage, and warranty:
W D Loughman on 11 May 2001 in comp.os.os2.misc entitled "UPS advice"
>Don't take too seriously the implied protection of your monetary
> investment when APC says: "...UPS comes with a $25,000 lifetime
> hardware replacement guarantee."

> Described in this newsgroup late last year, their UPS failure caused me
> to spend c. $1200 on replacement equipment. After their own
> investigation of the damagING unit, they did not dispute the UPS failure.
> However, they reimbursed me only $200, no arguments accepted, with a
> required waiver = "Sign this now", or get nothing. They use a sort of
> "Blue Book" for computers, and paid only the values listed therein. NOT
> replacement cost. Cover your financial losses some other way, 'cause
> they sure won't. Buyer beware!

Another example of an APC UPS, the resulting hardware damage, and the bureaucracy attached to that warranty:
http://www.dcmessageboards.com/APC-Battery-Backup-prot-t16760.html&p=33252

Another attempt to have an APC warranty honored:
Steve Unrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV"
> I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume
> fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS.
> I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with
> the purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. I
> was nice and polite and had everything documented including photos of
> their product installed next to the fax.
> They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting.
> I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer
> service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and
> never got the courtesy of a reply.

Joules in a protector are irrelevant. Protection is defined by earthing. APC will even hype a mythical big buck warranty so that you will ignore what is important.

How to identify an ineffective protector. Has no dedicated earthing wire. Manufacturer will not discuss earthing. Hypes a big buck warranty with fine print that makes the warranty all but useless. Some see the big bucks. That proves the protector is effective? Nonsense. Read the fine print.

Protectors from benchmark manufacturers have no warranty. A free market trend – the product with the biggest hyped warranty is often the most inferior. Anyone remember 1960 Fords with the 5 year and 50,000 mile warranty? Why? Because Fords failed so often. Only the most naïve believe a warranty proves product quality.

Joules inside a protector are irrelevant. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - when surge energy is harmlessly dissipated. Joules dissipated in earth - and not a silly warranty - define protection. Why did so many using APC products still have damage?

 

[JerryLove]

I can't resist this one... I'll ignore the rest of the post (redundant)

It [APC] does not. It cannot and does not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge.

APC offers lighting strike insurance for it's consumer customers up to 10,000 dollars.

Best warranties were available on GM cars. That proves GM has better quality than Honda and Toyota? That is your reasoning?

So you said "doesn't claim to protect", he said "not only claims to protect, offers a guarantee".

At this point: you should have said "ah! They are claiming protection" (well, you should have said that pages ago when I pointed it out, but I digress).

You spend the rest of your post attempting to obstifucate the fact that, despite your repeated assertions to the contrary, APC does claim to protect equipment. They claim it a lot in fact.

When you make false assertions about a poster's claim (Isiberian never called them "the best".. I don't think he even said "they work", he just said they claim to work); and you make false claims about something as simple to prove as advertising (APC certainly does claim protection) you tend to loose all credulity.

 

[njedpx3]

I agree with Isiberian - good advice

Um? just get an APC and move on. I don't think you need to worry yourself with Joules. I've never exceeded it. And Unless your running multiple subs I doubt you will either.

Good Advice I have two APC H15s.

What you really want in a surge protector is to protect you equipment.

Besides joules such as clamping voltage (lower is better, look for 330 Volt UL rating, APC has this rating), response time (how fast the surge protector reacts, lower is better look for 1 nanosecond or less, APC not specified).

Joules is the amount of energy the surge protector can absorb before it fails ( larger is better look for at least 600 joules, the APC is 5,270) and is determine by the number of MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) the surge protector contains.

Good Luck!

NJ

 

[lsiberian]

Best warranties were available on GM cars. That proves GM has better quality than Honda and Toyota? That is your reasoning?

Read that APC warranty. So chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. Hyped because some will assume a warranty is better than numeric specs. Nonsense. That APC warranty if for the naive who want to believe without learning facts. Facts. One APC warranty even said a protector from any other manufacturer in the building voided the warranty. Did you read the fine print? That warranty is written to not be honored – so that you will not read its tech specs. Specs that claim no protection.

Others learned about that APC protection, the resulting damage, and warranty:
W D Loughman on 11 May 2001 in comp.os.os2.misc entitled "UPS advice"
>Don't take too seriously the implied protection of your monetary
> investment when APC says: "...UPS comes with a $25,000 lifetime
> hardware replacement guarantee."

> Described in this newsgroup late last year, their UPS failure caused me
> to spend c. $1200 on replacement equipment. After their own
> investigation of the damagING unit, they did not dispute the UPS failure.
> However, they reimbursed me only $200, no arguments accepted, with a
> required waiver = "Sign this now", or get nothing. They use a sort of
> "Blue Book" for computers, and paid only the values listed therein. NOT
> replacement cost. Cover your financial losses some other way, 'cause
> they sure won't. Buyer beware!

Another example of an APC UPS, the resulting hardware damage, and the bureaucracy attached to that warranty:
http://www.dcmessageboards.com/APC-Battery-Backup-prot-t16760.html&p=33252

Another attempt to have an APC warranty honored:
Steve Unrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV"
> I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume
> fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS.
> I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with
> the purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. I
> was nice and polite and had everything documented including photos of
> their product installed next to the fax.
> They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting.
> I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer
> service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and
> never got the courtesy of a reply.

Joules in a protector are irrelevant. Protection is defined by earthing. APC will even hype a mythical big buck warranty so that you will ignore what is important.

How to identify an ineffective protector. Has no dedicated earthing wire. Manufacturer will not discuss earthing. Hypes a big buck warranty with fine print that makes the warranty all but useless. Some see the big bucks. That proves the protector is effective? Nonsense. Read the fine print.

Protectors from benchmark manufacturers have no warranty. A free market trend – the product with the biggest hyped warranty is often the most inferior. Anyone remember 1960 Fords with the 5 year and 50,000 mile warranty? Why? Because Fords failed so often. Only the most naïve believe a warranty proves product quality.

Joules inside a protector are irrelevant. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - when surge energy is harmlessly dissipated. Joules dissipated in earth - and not a silly warranty - define protection. Why did so many using APC products still have damage?

Computer depreciate very quickly so I'm not surprised his equipment wasn't worth that much plus I don't know the full story.

None of your posts offer anyone any solutions that are viable. Furthermore while some of us may be engineers many readers aren't. Take your engineering lingo to another thread.

No one here is going to listen to you until you start providing proven peer reviewed data. For example the speaker cable controversy is full of evidence to prove it's point that monster isn't any better than lamp cord.

Bose speakers are measured to be lousy.

Show us some real data not just opinions.

 

[lsiberian]

Best warranties were available on GM cars. That proves GM has better quality than Honda and Toyota? That is your reasoning?

Read that APC warranty. So chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. Hyped because some will assume a warranty is better than numeric specs. Nonsense. That APC warranty if for the naive who want to believe without learning facts. Facts. One APC warranty even said a protector from any other manufacturer in the building voided the warranty. Did you read the fine print? That warranty is written to not be honored – so that you will not read its tech specs. Specs that claim no protection.

Others learned about that APC protection, the resulting damage, and warranty:
W D Loughman on 11 May 2001 in comp.os.os2.misc entitled "UPS advice"
>Don't take too seriously the implied protection of your monetary
> investment when APC says: "...UPS comes with a $25,000 lifetime
> hardware replacement guarantee."

> Described in this newsgroup late last year, their UPS failure caused me
> to spend c. $1200 on replacement equipment. After their own
> investigation of the damagING unit, they did not dispute the UPS failure.
> However, they reimbursed me only $200, no arguments accepted, with a
> required waiver = "Sign this now", or get nothing. They use a sort of
> "Blue Book" for computers, and paid only the values listed therein. NOT
> replacement cost. Cover your financial losses some other way, 'cause
> they sure won't. Buyer beware!

Another example of an APC UPS, the resulting hardware damage, and the bureaucracy attached to that warranty:
http://www.dcmessageboards.com/APC-Battery-Backup-prot-t16760.html&p=33252

Another attempt to have an APC warranty honored:
Steve Unrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation entitled "UPS for computer and TV"
> I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume
> fax which was 'protected' by an APC UPS.
> I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with
> the purchase receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. I
> was nice and polite and had everything documented including photos of
> their product installed next to the fax.
> They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting.
> I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer
> service, sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and
> never got the courtesy of a reply.

Joules in a protector are irrelevant. Protection is defined by earthing. APC will even hype a mythical big buck warranty so that you will ignore what is important.

How to identify an ineffective protector. Has no dedicated earthing wire. Manufacturer will not discuss earthing. Hypes a big buck warranty with fine print that makes the warranty all but useless. Some see the big bucks. That proves the protector is effective? Nonsense. Read the fine print.

Protectors from benchmark manufacturers have no warranty. A free market trend – the product with the biggest hyped warranty is often the most inferior. Anyone remember 1960 Fords with the 5 year and 50,000 mile warranty? Why? Because Fords failed so often. Only the most naïve believe a warranty proves product quality.

Joules inside a protector are irrelevant. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - when surge energy is harmlessly dissipated. Joules dissipated in earth - and not a silly warranty - define protection. Why did so many using APC products still have damage?

FYI I've never paid more than 50 bucks for any of my power strips. Including my power conditioner, power strip, and UPS. all of them have a grounding line.

 

[lsiberian]

I created a new thread where Westom, JerryLove and others can discuss this controversy.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=623922#post623922

Please continue the conversation there. Read the first post! I don't want sermons I want good posts with cited sources and well explained concepts and points. You can expect rebuttal back and forth but let's keep it clear and straightforward so we can all follow along.

 

[westom]

What you really want in a surge protector is to protect you equipment.
Besides joules such as clamping voltage (lower is better, look for 330 Volt UL rating, APC has this rating), response time (how fast the surge protector reacts, lower is better look for 1 nanosecond or less, APC not specified).

The APC is again promoted by myths to those who were told what to believe rather than learn the science. The irrelevant specs will be identified.

Posted again is this myth that a protector will somehow absorb surges. How will 600 joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It will not. And still another never read the posted science – posted what APC tells him to believe. Why does he believe 600 joules will absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Hearsay. A majority said it was true. Same logic also proved Saddam had WMDs.

What does a 330 volt APC do when a serious (potentially destructive) surge exists? Its voltage may rise to over 900 volts. 900 volts on a 120 volt appliance – that is protection? Did they just forget to mention that number? 330 volts is voltage when a surge is trivial. Anyone can view figure 3 or 7 at:
http://tinyurl.com/oooej6

Nanosecond response time? All protectors have nanosecond response times. Another irrelevant number ignored by those with basic electrical knowledge. But APC promotes this numbers to an audience of the technically naive. The fact that the number is even mentioned says the poster is only reciting what he was told to believe - does not know what those numbers say.

What does the APC clamp surge current to? One side of its MOV is at maybe 5000 volts. The other side is at 4670 volts. Where is the protection? Even APC does not claim that protection. In facilities that can never suffer damage (ie US Air Force facilities), money is not wasted on a plug-in protector that does not even claim protection.

Only a minority are posting from knowledge. How many protectors have you designed and had tested by direct lightning strikes in the past few decades. I have quite a few. Notice who knows where the datasheets are. And still others *know* an APC is better only because APC says so.

What does a current seek when it creates 5000 and 4670 volts? Earth ground. What does the APC not have and not discuss? Earth ground. What (sometimes) is a good path to earth? Adjacent appliances - destructively. But then we engineers have traced such damage directly traceable to plug-in protectors with specs that claim no protection. Traced the damage and replaced the damaged semiconductors. Surge was earthed through those computers by the plug-in protector.

Responsible homeowners earth one 'whole house' protector so that nothing is damaged. The effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Necessary to even avoid fire created by plug-in protectors - ie those scary pictures. What happens when 600 joules tries to absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?

Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage" describes the danger of power strip protectors:
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable
> man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
> The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
> and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.

Her protector provided protection as cited in its numeric specs. And still so many others know APC must be good because hearsay (ie that nanosecond response time) said so. Because it has a mythical warranty, has few joules, does not claim protection from the typically destructive surge, can create apartment fires (ie see those scary pictures), has no earthing, is hyped by those without electrical knowledge, and is promoted by attacking honest posters - it must be worth tens or 100 times more money.

Honest homeowners earth 'one' effective protector from more responsible companies such as General Electric, Siemens, Leviton, Keison, Intermatic, Square D, Clipsal, etc. Even a less than $50 solution from Cutler-Hammer is effective. Properly installed means protection of everything even from direct lightning strikes. Means nobody knew a surge even existed. Nonsense are claims that a 600 joule protector will magically absorb hundreds of thousands of joules. And again, another posts that myth. Only a fool would believe that a two centimeter part will stop what three miles of sky could not. That is what the APC recommendation says. Somehow it will magically protect ... because even the manufacturer does not claim effective protection.

See that chart? A 330 volts protector component will increase to over 900 volts when the typically destructive surge occurs. But APC is not required to add those numbers. They are only required by UL to list 330 volts. Being honest may inform even the least technically informed consumers. Where is that spec that actually claims protection? Does not exist. They have JerryLove, et al promoting myths and half truths.

The OP asked for minimal numbers of joules. 600 joules will absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Yes, when myths are promoted.

Posted by another are number that do not define effective surge protection - for obvious reasons. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. The APC has no earthing. So he forget to mention what is most important - earth ground.

From the NIST (a US government research agency):
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if
> grounding is not done properly.

That would be the APC product. The one that does not even claim protection in its numeric specifications - but others still recommend it even using mockery and myths.

 

[westom]

None of your posts offer anyone any solutions that are viable. Furthermore while some of us may be engineers many readers aren't. Take your engineering lingo to another thread.

So laymen should only listen to snake oil salesmen? The honest reply includes technical knowledge AND the reasons why. No technical 'whys' means the answer is probably from a snake oil salesmen.

Provided was the solution installed in any building. A solution that is routinely installed when surge damage cannot happen. A protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. And that surge protects every thing that needs protection - including the furnace, bathroom GFCIs, dishwasher, and clock radio. Yes, even grossly undersized APC products even need that protection - see those scary pictures.

What is the most important appliance should a surge occur? Smoke detector. What protects it? A solution sold by responsible companies such as General Electric, Intermatic, Clipsal, Keison, Square D, Leviton, and so many others. The Cutler-Hammer solution is sold in Lowes. This was posted numerous times for those who want effective protection.

Do you listen to what the engineer (with a few generations of experience) recommends? Or what uninformed layman are told to recite by APC? JerryLove and a majority here recommend solutions that cost $25 and $150 per appliance. That do not even claim to provide protection. Your choice. Be scammed. Or install in any home the solution that has routinely been installed for over 100 years.

It's just not that difficult. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That simple. Scam solutions have no dedicated earthing wire. Are promoted by avoiding any earth discussion. Then get recommended on a mythical warranty. Amazing how a few hundred joules will magically absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. Amazing how that two centimeter part will stop what three miles of sky could not. Repeated again because others must ignore engineering reality.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Myth purveyors ignore that hoping reality will go away. Science did not change only because APC tells them what to believe. One protector in any home means everything (even the APC) is protected for about $1 per protected appliance. That means manufacturers that are responsible - not APC or Monster Cable. That means a protector that is earthed.

The OP asked how many joules in a protector? Again answered because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground – joules is number hyped by myths - as if 600 joiules will absorb hundreds of thousands of joules.

Once somebody asks honest technical questions, then additional information can be posted. But so many here only repost the same urban myths that a majority were told to believe. You asked for a solution that everyone can install? It was provided again – with the reasons why. Because every informed homeowner needs an engineer's advise - not what the Best Buy salesman recommends.

How many joules? Not even relevant because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[bombarde32]

Um? just get an APC and move on. I don't think you need to worry yourself with Joules. I've never exceeded it. And Unless your running multiple subs I doubt you will either.

And make sure the dollar amount the warranty covers is sufficient to cover the devices you've plugged in. i.e. don't buy something that covers 2k of equipment if you have 5k plugged into it.

 

[JerryLove]

Do you listen to what the engineer (with a few generations of experience) recommends? Or what uninformed layman are told to recite by APC? JerryLove and a majority here recommend solutions that cost $25 and $150 per appliance. That do not even claim to provide protection. Your choice. Be scammed. Or install in any home the solution that has routinely been installed for over 100 years.

Funny story. I'm an engineer and so was my father. (you may recall me discussing being involved in power requirements for server farms earlier in this conversation... but likely you don't)

Seriously, dude. Your reading comprehension skills are atrocious.

But who should someone listen to? The guy who keeps saying things like "no protection is claimed" after having been linked to claims of protection, or the guy who is actually consistent?

 

[njedpx3]

Open queston to Westcom - How do you protect your HT from surges?

Westcom,

You are very well Informed about eletrical surges and grounded protection, etc. I take it you are engineer, probably electrical, and I surmise that you deal with these issues daily either from a design/installation/support perspective or from a lawsuit perspective as a technical consultant.

Do here is my question to you, and I don't think it is a thread highjack because it goes along the same vein as the OPs original question, what type of HT equipment do you have and how do you protect it from surges and other abnormal electrical conditions? What should we look for and what works?

Thanks,

NJ

 

[westom]

Funny story. I'm an engineer and so was my father.

An engineer would have provided protector spec numbers. You did not.

An engineer would have asked how a few hundred joules in a protector will absorb hundreds of thousands of joules. You could not.

An engineer would have understood the critical importance of earthing - where surge energy gets dissipated. You did not.

An engineer knows the difference between safety ground with earth ground. You did not.

An engineer would never cite a warranty as proof of technical performance. Even an informed consumer learns the product with a largest hyped warranty is the lesser product.

An engineer with sufficient knowledge would have known why telcos and munitions dumps - that must never suffer damage - do not waste money on APC products. You did not.

An engineer would have know these principles are well proven and routine for 100 years. You did not.

An engineer would have understood the critical importance of wire impedance (ie no sharp wire bends). You did not.

An engineer would have known a direct lightning strike to wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to household appliances. You even denied it.

An engineer would have remembered 2nd grade science to understood the significance of what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752. You did not.

An engineer would have quoted at least one professional citation. You did not.

An engineer would have cited the protector spec numbers that claim protection. You refused.

An engineer would have understood why a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. You did not.

An engineer would have replied technically. You only posted mockery and myths in the tradition of Rush Limbaugh.

Amazing how many people will claim to be an engineer when caught posting myths and hearsay. You are no engineer. You don't even understand the simplest of engineering numbers such as impedance. Your claims come with no supporting facts - as an engineer would do. You make classic junk science claims - sweeping declarations with no reason to be true. Why do you embarrass us by making many claims that are clearly false? You are not an engineer. Your knowledge is based completely in what you were told to believe.

An engineer could have answered the OP's question about number of joules. You did not.

 

[westom]

how do you protect it from surges[/U] and other abnormal electrical conditions? What should we look for and what works?

How does your telco, with electronics connected to overhead wires all over town, not suffer surge damage? How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that surge damaged computer? Each thunderstorm means about 100 surges confront that computer and no damage. Why? They use what has been routine protection for over 100 years.

Every wire in every cable is earthed before entering the building. That's it. They use the same cheap protectors that are also installed where the telco wire enters your building. But they upgrade their earthing.

Only the more responsible companies provide this solution. General Electric, Clipsal, Siemens, Leviton, Intermatic, Square D, Polyphaser, and Keison are but a few. The Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes for less than $50.

A friend's entire neighborhood had electric meters blown 30 feet off the side of the buildings. Numerous neighbors suffered damage to electronics and power strip protectors. Did not matter whether they were connected to protectors or not. One even had his fiber optic TV/cable/internet damaged. But my friend knew someone who actually learned this stuff. He only had one 'whole house' protector properly earthed. He had no plug-in protectors. He had no appliance damage.

Telephone needs no protector. The telco provides it for free. Cable TV needs no protector. It is earthed with only a wire. But in both cases, the connection must be to the same earthing electrode, short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, etc.

Do what has been well proven in every 911 emergency response center for decades. Do those operators remove headsets and leave the building with each thunderstorm? Of course not. Even with direct lightning strikes, nobody even knew a surge existed. You can install the same protector for about $1 per protected appliance. And not waste $25 or $150 per appliance on power strip protectors.

My friend knew someone who learned what provides surge protection. Any money wasted on power strips or a UPS is better spent upgrading the earthing. What do you look for? Above is secondary protection. Also inspect the primary protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[JerryLove]

Amazing how many people will claim to be an engineer when caught posting myths and hearsay. You are no engineer. You don't even understand the simplest of engineering numbers such as impedance. Your claims come with no supporting facts - as an engineer would do. You make classic junk science claims - sweeping declarations with no reason to be true. Why do you embarrass us by making many claims that are clearly false? You are not an engineer. Your knowledge is based completely in what you were told to believe.

You wouldn't know, you haven't read any of my claims. You just keep making stuff up.

You didn't read Siberian's claims either. You haven't read any of the provided materials. You haven't cited really anything except your own website. You haven't even managed to be consistent with your own posts. (the only protection is earthing which must be within 10' of ground, but appliances protect themselves by earthing, and steeples are protected more than 10' above the ground? Surges can only be stopped before entering, but appliances protect themselves and systems can be protected from direct hits (by definition, after entering) even when those hits occur more than 10' from ground? Surge suppressors don't claim to protect, but don't honor their guarantees claiming protection (gotta have one to not honor it neh?)?).

You've formed a picture in my head at this point of a pyramid-hat-wearing guy on a street corner screaming about earthing.

Just picking one at random: When I linked you to the PDF of the installation guide for one of APC's surge suppressors, and pointed you to the page (page 10) which instructed on how to attach the grounding line from the suppressor to the earth ground; what rationalization has allowed you several more pages of claiming that APC doesn't have or discuss grounding?

Please answer that question. I would remind you that repeating your rant is not an answer.

 

[westom]

You wouldn't know, you haven't read any of my claims. You just keep making stuff up.

You claimed safety ground is the same as earth ground. Claims without even a hint of a professional citation. Not even one.

You claimed a warranty proves superior products.

You claim a few hundred joules will somehow absorb hundreds of thousands of joules.

You claim that silly little 2 centimeter part will stop what three miles of sky could not.

You denied a direct lightning strike down the street is a direct strike to household appliances.

You cited IBM, GE, Citigroup, etc office workers as technical experts on surge protectors. Since office workers bought them, that proves plug-in protectors are effective? These junk science claims are incessent.

Invented invisible protectors - which is the only way you can say any protector did anything. The dish washer also was not damaged. So it also had an invisible protector. Your logic.

Recommend protectors for brownouts. You claimed you "watched brown-outs tax and kill ... light bulbs". Any layman knows that brownouts don't damage light bulbs. And knows that protectors do nothing for brownouts. why recommend protector for brownouts?

You claimed a protector can operate like a circuit breaker. Of course not. But later admitted you do not know what is inside a protector.

What are surges that originate inside the houses electrical system? Another myth from HowStuffWorks that was proven wrong maybe seven times over. Meanwhile, one 'whole house' protector would also eliminate those mythical surges.

You were challenged to post one manufacturer spec that claims surge protection. You could not and still have not. You have no idea what those spec numbers say. So you demean as proof.

It was simple. If your ineffective recommendation did anything useful, then cite the manufacturer's spec numbers. You lied about posting spec numbers. You lied about being an engineer. Lying does come naturally to you. Which explains why you recommend plug-in protectors. Which explains why so little in your posts is even worth discussing.

 

[highfigh]

Telephone needs no protector. The telco provides it for free. Cable TV needs no protector. It is earthed with only a wire. But in both cases, the connection must be to the same earthing electrode, short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, etc.

You're assuming the Telco wires are in good condition and that the cable company actually bothered to ground their feed at the demarc point. Many times, they don't and it doesn't matter which cable TV company is mentioned. Satellite providers are no better. My cable wasn't grounded and neither was my satellite feed.

 

[lsiberian]

You're assuming the Telco wires are in good condition and that the cable company actually bothered to ground their feed at the demarc point. Many times, they don't and it doesn't matter which cable TV company is mentioned. Satellite providers are no better. My cable wasn't grounded and neither was my satellite feed.

Yeah I don't know what planet you are from, but the cable guys are not the brightest knives in my area.

 

[lsiberian]

An Engineer is humble and willing to admit he doesn't have all the answers.

The worst Engineer is an arrogant one.

 

[JerryLove]

Just picking one at random: When I linked you to the PDF of the installation guide for one of APC's surge suppressors, and pointed you to the page (page 10) which instructed on how to attach the grounding line from the suppressor to the earth ground; what rationalization has allowed you several more pages of claiming that APC doesn't have or discuss grounding?

Please answer that question. I would remind you that repeating your rant is not an answer.

[repeats rant]

Again I ask you to answer the question above. It's a single example from a litany. You seem happy enough to devote pages to calling me a liar; but none to addressing the obvious errors in your claims.

 

[JerryLove]

You're assuming the Telco wires are in good condition and that the cable company actually bothered to ground their feed at the demarc point. Many times, they don't and it doesn't matter which cable TV company is mentioned. Satellite providers are no better. My cable wasn't grounded and neither was my satellite feed.

I've seen (that I can recall) three computers that were taken out of comission from voltage spikes down a POTS line. It's pretty easy with internal MODEMs, and it makes quite a mess inside the case sometimes.