Picking a surge protector

[JerryLove]

Lightning striking down the street is a direct strike to your appliances.

Ignoring your failure to use the english definition of "direct" you are hacking a straw man.

Again what I actually said: I'm more concerned with the far more common dips (and occasionally spikes), caused by other power loads (the AC compressor coming on), and backbone failures (transformer blew down the street) and lightning that struck somewhere else in the line (breakers tripped and power re-routed) than the much-more-rare "direct hit".

Brownouts (sags) are not destructive despite the many who know otherwise (but cannot say why).

Other than having watched brown-outs tax and kill (mostly power supplies and light bulbs, which turning off and on can do as well), the issue would lie mostly with electronics which write data. Coming from the computer world, problems occur when failure happens in stages rather than at once. Perhaps an undervoltage results in a loss of RPM on a HDD which lessens the efffect of the air-pressure under the write head resulting in a head crash (for example). I can't argue that this isn't less of a concern for non-writing electronics (like AV gear).

Low voltage is harmful to electric motors.

Like the one in my CD player? Or the one in the fan that keeps my TV from overheating?

Meanwhile, quoting something from the APC sales brochure demonstrates where knowledge comes from - sales propaganda.

You said they didn't mention (for example "grounding"). I cited them mentioning grounding. Your statement was factually wrong.

The fact that you persist with that having been pointed out makes you a liar.

There are no numbers in that subjective claim for very good reason. It protects from a type of transient that causes no damage. APC will never claim protection in numeric specs because, well, those few hundred joules will absorb destructive surges of hundreds of thousands of joules?

You've made only vauge numbers. You've failed to back a single one with a cite. You've made repeated factual claims that were demonstrably false. You've also made claims about real-world results which are completely contrary to every other poster here who has spoken up, who has actually used these products under these condtions without the adverse effects you assert to be inevitable.

I'm skipping the rest of your post because you seem to be just reiterating your lies. I don't know why you have such a personal vendetta against this company as to wander around making such a display of yourself.

 

[dougg]

Surge Supressors worked for Me

Lighting popped a transformer half a block away a month ago. It got My Telephones and My Weater Station. All AV Equipment had surge Supressors and no Damage.
I do believe the Supressors did their job.
No it was not a direct hit, as i believe You cannot ground or Supress a direct hit in a Residental enviroment. Equipment is too spread out for proper Grounding.
Doug S.

 

[JerryLove]

I do reccommend, for those who can, household lightning protection. The power companies around here will even doll it out in payments on your electric bill. They guarentee (I've never foudn out how well honored) non-electronic devices.

That should protect you from the big stuff unless it hits the house itself.

 

[westom]

Lighting popped a transformer half a block away a month ago. It got My Telephones and My Weater Station. All AV Equipment had surge Supressors and no Damage.

So everything else in the house was damaged. Using your logic, everything else - including the dishwasher, furnace, smoke detectors, bathroom GFCIs, dimmer switches and the door bell had to be damaged. They also had no surge protectors. No? Then what protected them? Invisible protectors? Your logic only works if invisible protectors exist.

More likely, appliances protected themselves. Superior protection was inside those appliances – with or without the protector.

You let energy enter; therefore had telephone and weather station damage. What earthed that surge? Not your protectors. The telephone and weather station more likely provided surge protection to other appliances. (And neither is invisible.)

Why did a transformer explode? Did you inspect your ‘primary’ surge protection system? Why do I know about primary protection if (according to you) I don’t know anything about surge protection? A compromised primary protection would explain an exploding transformer and the resulting household damage. What every homeowner shoudl inspect (system will not let me properly provide it)
Triple w dot tvtower dot com slash fpl dot html


"Equipment is too spread out for proper Grounding" implies a complete misunderstanding of earthing. Safety ground in a wall receptacle is not earth ground for obvious electrical reasons. Protection is not about earthing appliances. When a building is properly earthed, then why was surge damage averted? Protection is about earthing the surge. Why are professionals solving surge damage by correcting and upgrading earth ground? How did Orange County FL stop surge damage to their 911 system? Upgraded what provides the surge protection- and that is not any plug-in protector:
Triple w dot psihq dot com slash AllCopper.htm

You said everything on a surge protector was protected. All telephones have surge protectors installed free by the telco. You said your telephones were damaged. How can that be? According to you all surge protected items were unharmed? Then why were phones damage?

If improperly installed and earthed, a surge protector can contribute to damage. But again, Why do you know what did work when you did not even know about a telco provided surge protector? According to your logic, telephones were not damaged.

You did not even know you have invisible surge protectors? Please.

Back to reality. The OP asked a simple question that no other answered. Since you know what works, then you can answer the OP's question:

How do you figure out the amount of jules you need?

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As the NIST said:

The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Fortunately for you, AV equipment, furnace, dishwasher, dimmer switches, clock radios, GFCIs, smoke detectors, etc all protected themselves.

Worse is no curiosity. No desire to learn how protection is installed so that a telephone or Weather Station is undamaged. Somehow you know an obscenely high profit solution (that does not even claim to provide that protection) is better? Why do locations that suffer no damage from direct lightning strikes not install your solution? Why do they, instead, use solutions that have been proven for over 100 years? Surge energy must be harmlessly dissipated where? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[JerryLove]

So everything else in the house was damaged.

You seem to have accidentally put a period where you should have put a question mark.

Using your logic, everything else - including the dishwasher, furnace, smoke detectors, bathroom GFCIs, dimmer switches and the door bell had to be damaged. They also had no surge protectors. No? Then what protected them? Invisible protectors? Your logic only works if invisible protectors exist.

Seriously? If a surge killed a phone it must also have killed a solid-state, contains-no-electronics dimmer switch or it didn't really happen?

More likely, appliances protected themselves. Superior protection was inside those appliances – with or without the protector.

Really? You should talk to that guy back on page two who said things like

"What does the effective protector do? It must be located short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground." - Westom #17.​

See, that guy would have told you that an appliance couldn't have shunted to ground because it was more than 10' from ground (electrically speaking). He then would have asked you how many joules could take.

You let energy enter; therefore had telephone and weather station damage. What earthed that surge? Not your protectors. The telephone and weather station more likely provided surge protection to other appliances. (And neither is invisible.)

Interesting. So it's impossible for a UPS to provide a path to ground but a phone can?

Simple solution then: you should protect all of your electronics with phones.

Triple w dot tvtower dot com slash fpl dot html

Is this your site? It sure reads like your post.

Why are professionals solving surge damage by correcting and upgrading earth ground? How did Orange County FL stop surge damage to their 911 system?

Heck no: it's going to be a wire-in unit like the Leibert at my site.

You said everything on a surge protector was protected. All telephones have surge protectors installed free by the telco. You said your telephones were damaged. How can that be?

That's easy. *You* claim that there's a surge supressor, then prove your own claim invalid, then pretend that it has something to do with his claim.

This is referred to as a "straw man logical fallacy".

If improperly installed and earthed, a surge protector can contribute to damage. But again, Why do you know what did work when you did not even know about a telco provided surge protector? According to your logic, telephones were not damaged.

I'm beginning to wonder if you know what the word "logic" means. You seem to be alluding to his observations (please note: observations are not logic, they are facts) and then inserting hypothesis, and then disproving your own hypothesis, and then step 4: profit.

err.. I mean "and then claiming victory".

You did not even know you have invisible surge protectors? Please.

I tripped over an invisible surge supressior once and hurt my toe. My invisible lawyer tried to sue, but I couldn't show damages.

Back to reality. The OP asked a simple question that no other answered. Since you know what works, then you can answer the OP's question:

If the question was "what works" he could.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As the NIST said: Fortunately for you, AV equipment, furnace, dishwasher, dimmer switches, clock radios, GFCIs, smoke detectors, etc all protected themselves.

So then AV equipment never breaks? News to me.

 

[MatthewB.]

I have voltage regulation and surge protection on all my gear, now if it works or not, I can't tell, all I know is that power in AZ during the summer is tricky at best (everyone runs their AC full blast and the power company sometimes can't keep up, that and with our monsoon storms, electricity is always turning on and off, so I have all three of my HT systems hooked up to multiple voltage regulation and of course the surge protection.

Now a few years ago a bolt of lightning struck my parents driveway and the bolt travelled under their house and took out a tree on the other side of their house and also blew out a huge portion of their electronics, but considering I and my folks have excellant insurance, everything was covered. They even paid my folks 400.00 for a 30 year old Beta VCR because since no one makes them anymore the only replacements you can get are professional Beta machines, so they reimbursed my folks for a professional Beta machine and my folks got to buy a crapload of new electronics, which makes me wonder why I am using Voltage regulation and surge protection, cause I would love to get full retail price on my 8 year old Pioneer Elite 58" RPTV without HDMI. I can just imagine what flat screen I can buy now with 7,700.00

 

[highfigh]

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about which devices do what. A UPS is just an uninterruptible power supply, APC is a brand and surge suppressors are made for small surges (relative to lightning and other major over-voltage situations), not lightning suppression/protection. Power conditioners are made to smooth and filter the voltage from the power company but those won't necessarily do much with direct lightning strikes. About the most they can do is crowbar when they reach the designed limit but even that can be too late. Lightning suppression cabling is kept away from other wiring for a reason and the NEC wants it installed more than 16" (IIRC) from other conductors because it can induce huge surges (contrary to what the electrician thought at one job I worked on, because he wire-tied all of his Romex that ran to the second floor to the suppression cables).

A surge suppressor can't do much for a lightning strike when it's in the 500 Mega Joule range and the suppressor is rated for 2000 Joules. If lightning can travel miles in air, an electrical component like a MOV made for suppressing small surges will pose no barrier when it approaches its breakdown point since the equipment isn't in a vacuum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

Any equipment that survives a nearby direct lightning strike didn't receive the incredible voltages from that strike, for whatever reasons.

I'm not sure I would call surge suppressor profits 'obscene' when cable sellers have 2 meter pairs that sell for $6000, though.

 

[JerryLove]

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about which devices do what. A UPS is just an uninterruptible power supply, APC is a brand and surge suppressors are made for small surges (relative to lightning and other major over-voltage situations), not lightning suppression/protection. Power conditioners are made to smooth and filter the voltage from the power company but those won't necessarily do much with direct lightning strikes.

All but one of your statemetns are accurate descriptions of theoretical devices but not real-world ones. If you go buy a UPS, especially a good one, you've also just baught a surge supressor and a line conditioner.

As to your wrong statement. Surge supressors are made for all kinds of surges (unless there's some nomenclature rule I'm not aware of that it becomes a "surge arrestor" or something after a certain point). It all depends on the individual unit. It's also misleading to imply that lightining = large surge. A direct hit will fry anything. A hit a state away will do nothing. Distances in between give varying levels of surge.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, interesting by the anti-APC guy: there is surge supression (grounding, transformers, and breakers) throughout the electrical system. What hits the line a mile away and what comes into your house is not the same surge.

A surge suppressor can't do much for a lightning strike when it's in the 500 Mega Joule range and the suppressor is rated for 2000 Joules. If lightning can travel miles in air, an electrical component like a MOV made for suppressing small surges will pose no barrier when it approaches its breakdown point since the equipment isn't in a vacuum.

True. What's implied but false is that all lightning strikes reuslt in 500 Mega-Joule surges at an arbitratry location and that all supressors are 2 Kilo-Joule or less. This is not true at all.

I'm not sure I would call surge suppressor profits 'obscene' when cable sellers have 2 meter pairs that sell for $6000, though.

The business community doesn't. From GM to IBM to Xerox to Citigroup I've seen surge supression equipment installed at every corporate office.

 

[westom]

All but one of your statemetns are accurate descriptions of theoretical devices but not real-world ones. If you go buy a UPS, especially a good one, you've also just baught a surge supressor and a line conditioner.

Good. Now you can post the manufacturer spec numbers that say that. And specifically point to the number which makes that claim.

You will not because you cannot. Your very first paragraph demonstrates knowledge only from hearsay. The UPS manufacturer does not claim protection from destructive surges. So you ignore the request for spec numbers. Classic junk science.

A latest myth is to rename a surge protector as a line conditioner. Then many wish it does even more. It’s called a line conditioner. Then it must condition line voltage. Word association proves it must be so. Junk science.

He saw business school graduates using plug-in protectors in IBM. Therefore it must be good! Complete nonsense. They are office workers. But that rationalization is how myths get promoted by the naive to the naive.

Why does every telco that must never suffer damage no use them? Because telcos must suffer no damage - including fire. Another problem seen by most fire departments are scary pictures. Due to system limits, I can only provide one:
Triple w dot pennsburgfireco dot com slash fullstory dot php?58339

However experts in a GE office know this does not happen? Who do we believe? That Fire Marshal. Or JerryLove and his office workers?

Direct lightning strikes routinely cause no damage when a human has basic knowledge. Any laymen can learn from a long list of professionals who say this - some were cited earlier. All 911 Centers must suffer direct lightning strikes - and nobody knew the surge even existed. Oh. Did someone post that citation from a professional? Same solution was routine when all phone called were handled by operators – how long ago? Routine is to have a direct lightning strike without damage even to an operator with a headset on. But only those who learned this stuff before posting would know.

What does his 2000 joule protector do? First, it uses only 630 joules and never more than 1300 joules. What is 1300 joules? Well below what internal protection makes irrelevant. What is that 2000 joules protector doing? Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent parts. Sell it for $25 or $150. Profit margins are obscene. Then the naive will see it in a Citigroup office. And recommend it. Then when it fails, the naïve will again recommend it.

What does Sun Microsystems define for server rooms? Obviously not plug-in protectors. Sun wants computers protected:
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans
> For the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths
> For surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed into
> The system to help mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the
> Data center. These should divert the power of the surge by providing a
> Path to ground for the surge energy.

Same protector can be earthed in any home for about $1 per protected appliance. That is protection even from direct lightning strikes. Only the naive would know nothing can provide that protection – then recommend the APC for tens or 100 times more money. Clearly price proves it works? The naive learn from office workers - not professionals. Then post subjectively the same myths over and over. Let's hear from another professional:
> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning 30 years,
> that you can design a system that will handle *direct lightning strikes* on
> a routine basis. It takes some planning and careful layout, but it's not
> hard, nor is it overly expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct
> lightning strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime
> from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went down
> from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power company's lines knocking
> *them* out, ...
> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to educate
> amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct strikes. The belief that
> there's no protection from direct strike damage is *myth*. ...
> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, and
> surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a single point
> ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And you must present a
> low *impedance* path for the energy to go. That's most generally a low
> *inductance* path rather than just a low ohm DC path.

Strange. Direct lightning strikes to radio antennas, utility wires connected to all household appliances, church steeples, Sun server rooms, every telco switching center everywhere in the world, and munitions dumps. Every one has no damage even from direct lightning strikes by doing the same thing. And by not spending tens or 100 times more for an APC ... that does not even claim protection from surges.

1300 joules will not even damage appliances. JerryLove should have known that 1300 joules is trivial. But that means first learning numbers before knowing something. So tiny that a surge may even damage the undersized protector. No problem. Damage (no protection) gets the naive to promote more.

Where are those spec numbers? Is even a one line spec that difficult to quote? What is your professional information source? GE office workers? Classic junk science reasoning. But then you even believe all surges are same. And that direct lightning strikes must always cause damage. Amazing how 100 years of science just changed because you know better.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That is not what GM office workers say. Therefore we should believe GM office workers? JerryLove's science proof - office workers know 100 years of proven science is wrong. So he recommends APC products.

Quoted above are professionals. In every case, the protector is only as effective as its earth ground. How curious. Ben Franklin demonstrated the same concept in 1752.

 

[highfigh]

All but one of your statemetns are accurate descriptions of theoretical devices but not real-world ones. If you go buy a UPS, especially a good one, you've also just baught a surge supressor and a line conditioner.

As to your wrong statement. Surge supressors are made for all kinds of surges (unless there's some nomenclature rule I'm not aware of that it becomes a "surge arrestor" or something after a certain point). It all depends on the individual unit. It's also misleading to imply that lightining = large surge. A direct hit will fry anything. A hit a state away will do nothing. Distances in between give varying levels of surge.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, interesting by the anti-APC guy: there is surge supression (grounding, transformers, and breakers) throughout the electrical system. What hits the line a mile away and what comes into your house is not the same surge.

True. What's implied but false is that all lightning strikes reuslt in 500 Mega-Joule surges at an arbitratry location and that all supressors are 2 Kilo-Joule or less. This is not true at all.

The business community doesn't. From GM to IBM to Xerox to Citigroup I've seen surge supression equipment installed at every corporate office.

You need to stop thinking that everything is posted in absolute terms.

I had modified my post and left out the part about UPS's that some have conditioning. Sorry. Most smaller ones don't do all that much, other than use an inverter to continue AC when the service goes out for some reason and a bit of suppression. Good ones do more, obviously, but my omission was unintentional.

As to my "wrong" statement, not all surge suppressors are made for all kinds of surges. They may experience "all kinds", but they won't necessarily protect anything if the surge is the kind that destroys equipment. In these cases, I expect that many will sacrifice themselves, by design, in order to try to save whatever is connected to them. Also, I never said anything about arresting the spike, other than that some units "crowbar" at a certain voltage. Not so much arresting as bypassing the devices, although this would be better if it happened to be placed at the service entrance, so it could bypass the whole building.

Re: lightning- try to stay with us here. The debate had to do with nearby strikes, not "a state away", which would be generally harmless unless the surge created was large enough to surpass what a suppressor could handle.

As far as my reference to a 50 MJ lightning strike- I didn't imply anything. I never posted that a 50MJ strike is what always happens and 2000 Joule suppressor as what is always used. I used those as examples, not absolutes, and I have to assume you didn't read the wiki link or you wouldn't be attributing these to me.

Now, about your assumption that all suppressors create obscene profits and then referencing GM and IBM. This is a forum for audio and home theater fan(atic)s, not am IEEE convention, so you don't need to use an industrial suppressor as your example and then not state its cost vs installed price to make your point. Try to finish the example when you make a claim like that. The devices you're trying to allude to aren't consumer grade. If a corporation of that size tries to handle their line problems with one consumer grade unit and are charged so much that the profits are truly obscene, they deserve it.

Some day, I'd like to see the actual line voltage in my house during a thunderstorm. My neighborhood has a lot of mature trees and we get some incredible lightning activity very close to my house, sometimes within 100' and too close to the transformers for my comfort.

 

[highfigh]

You brought up a good point about broadcast antennae- I have an antenna farm close to my house and I watch the tips being struck during just about every major storm, with only occasional outages (depends on what fails). I have seen some that lasted more than a second, although that doesn't mean they were many repeated strikes in that time, considering the eye's inability to distinguish discreet flashes at high frequencies. The topic here is, as far as I know, regarding general voltage fluctuations, not lightning suppression. That being the case, I wouldn't mind a new thread specifically for that. Maybe we can take this thread back to the original question and state that lightning will be a problem for just about any consumer level conditioner (I haven't seen test results that state any will actually eliminate damage from lightning strikes, just claims to that effect).

Personally, I don't want lightning or the extreme surge from it inside my house, in any way. I would much rather leave it outside, which is what an alternate path accomplishes. Because of the high probability that the conductors in the electrical wiring won't have a high degree of integrity when it comes to being an absolutely low impedance path, it makes sense to not send huge surges to ground using the usual bare copper ground wire. Iff houses weren't combustible, using a single unbroken ground conductor in a central location might not be a bad thing for surge suppression but I still think it would be best if all surges could be stopped at the demarc point. Noise filtering is another story, though.

Hey- if the filtering after a power supply is done immediately after the rectifier, I see no reason to think that leaving the surges outside is a bad idea.

For broadcast, does the facility isolate from the service entrance and regulate the voltage?

 

[JerryLove]

Good. Now you can post the manufacturer spec numbers that say that. And specifically point to the number which makes that claim.

I already did in my first response to your first post. The one where I proved your rant dishonest.

You will not because you cannot. Your very first paragraph demonstrates knowledge only from hearsay. The UPS manufacturer does not claim protection from destructive surges. So you ignore the request for spec numbers. Classic junk science.

I provided a link to APC claiming exactly that the first time you made this lie.

A latest myth is to rename a surge protector as a line conditioner. Then many wish it does even more. It’s called a line conditioner. Then it must condition line voltage. Word association proves it must be so. Junk science.

I didn't say a surge protector was a line conditioner. I said that high-end devices labeled "UPS" are, almost always, also surge supressors and line conditioners.

I suppose I should not be surprised that you cannot accurately repeat my statements, much of your posts stem from an inability to read the statements of others.

He saw business school graduates using plug-in protectors in IBM. Therefore it must be good! Complete nonsense. They are office workers. But that rationalization is how myths get promoted by the naive to the naive.

Actually, when involved in some of the Server Farms in Raleigh, I was present for the discussion of building-level power and protection.

Why does every telco that must never suffer damage no use them? Because telcos must suffer no damage - including fire.

So now you are claiming both that telcos never suffer a single electronic failure, but that grounding wires prevent fire?

However experts in a GE office know this does not happen? Who do we believe? That Fire Marshal. Or JerryLove and his office workers?

I don't see a fire marshal here, and we are not discussing fire. I see you.

I have proven, directly, that you are wrong.

You have made claims not just about APC's product's abilities, but about APC's claims. While we could go back and forth forever on whether APC is honest in their claims, it is not possible for you to defend claims from your first post like "APC never mentions grounding" or "APC never claims to protect from spikes" when I have linked to APCs site discussing grounding and claiming protection from spikes.

I've further shown that you are incapable even of repeating my claims.

I certainly have no reason to believe that you can accurately repeat any other arbitrary claim.

Direct lightning strikes routinely cause no damage when a human has basic knowledge. Any laymen can learn from a long list of professionals who say this - some were cited earlier.

You haven't actually cited anything except your own website.

All 911 Centers must suffer direct lightning strikes - and nobody knew the surge even existed. Oh. Did someone post that citation from a professional? Same solution was routine when all phone called were handled by operators – how long ago? Routine is to have a direct lightning strike without damage even to an operator with a headset on. But only those who learned this stuff before posting would know.

So an operator is sitting in a chair and a bolt of lightning comes through the window and strikes the operator in the head and she is unhurt? Please provide a cite.

Oh? That's "too direct"? You meant something else?

OK. So it comes through the window and hits the PC and there is no damage.

That's not true either?

OK. It hits the Cat 5 cable that connects her phone to the VoIP router and there's no damage.

Wait. That doesn't happen either.

You have an odd version of "direct".

What does his 2000 joule protector do?

Exist in your hypothetical only. Are you incapable of discussing the topic at hand?

What does Sun Microsystems define for server rooms? Obviously not plug-in protectors. Sun wants computers protected:

I miss your point.

Same protector can be earthed in any home for about $1 per protected appliance. That is protection even from direct lightning strikes. Only the naive would know nothing can provide that protection

I'm confused. Are you reversing your earlier claim that direct strikes can be protected from or are you still saying that $1 will protect my computer when a bold of lightning comes through my window?

Strange. Direct lightning strikes to radio antennas, utility wires connected to all household appliances, church steeples, Sun server rooms, every telco switching center everywhere in the world, and munitions dumps. Every one has no damage even from direct lightning strikes by doing the same thing.

Ahh yes. You are again asserting that no damage has ever been done to telco equipment by lightning, and that no church has ever burned down from it, and that no household appliance has ever failed from a surge. All simply untrue.

1300 joules will not even damage appliances. JerryLove should have known that 1300 joules is trivial.

Jerry love didn't mention 1300 joules.

 

[JerryLove]

I had modified my post and left out the part about UPS's that some have conditioning. Sorry. Most smaller ones don't do all that much, other than use an inverter to continue AC when the service goes out for some reason and a bit of suppression. Good ones do more, obviously, but my omission was unintentional.

I didn't think it intentional or otherwise. I was just being clear.

Re: lightning- try to stay with us here. The debate had to do with nearby strikes, not "a state away", which would be generally harmless unless the surge created was large enough to surpass what a suppressor could handle.

I thought it had to do with reasonably protecting AV equipment... which is something my APC units have done for me for years despite all the lightning around here.

But when is it relevent? 100 miles? 10 miles? 5 miles? 1 mile? 2500 ft? 1000 ft? Your power pole? Your electrical box? Through your window and directly into your equipment?

There is nothing needed for 100 miles. There is nothing that will help when it comes through your window (unless you would like to build a faraday cage around your house). Everything else is about degrees.

Now, about your assumption that all suppressors create obscene profits and then referencing GM and IBM.

You are confusing me with westcom. He's also the one that brought up industrial-grade scenerios. I've just been responding to his propiganda.

Regarding the question at hand, and at the risk of being repetitious, I recommend a good surge supressor at the miniumum. I am fond of the APC UPS Pro line of supressors battery-backups. There's some debate I cannot definitively resolve regarding power-dips (IOW, the battery backup portion of a UPS might or might not be useful for protecting electronics); though it's certainly convenient.

Some day, I'd like to see the actual line voltage in my house during a thunderstorm. My neighborhood has a lot of mature trees and we get some incredible lightning activity very close to my house, sometimes within 100' and too close to the transformers for my comfort.

Ever since TECO replaced a faulty underground line (and I had to call their "new construction" group to get engineers that would actually do that diagnosis) my power has actually been very good. Lightning isn't very good at hitting underground lines, the lines transitioning from the poles are well grounded, and my house has not taken a direct strike that I am aware of.

 

[highfigh]

But when is it relevent? 100 miles? 10 miles? 5 miles? 1 mile? 2500 ft? 1000 ft? Your power pole? Your electrical box? Through your window and directly into your equipment?

It's relevant when it causes a problem at the location in question. If it doesn't cause a problem, it's not relevant.

You are confusing me with westcom. He's also the one that brought up industrial-grade scenerios. I've just been responding to his propiganda.

Actually, you posted "The business community doesn't. From GM to IBM to Xerox to Citigroup I've seen surge supression equipment installed at every corporate office." and that doesn't apply to residential uses. Same issue but different level to the solution.

Regarding the question at hand, and at the risk of being repetitious, I recommend a good surge supressor at the miniumum. I am fond of the APC UPS Pro line of supressors battery-backups. There's some debate I cannot definitively resolve regarding power-dips (IOW, the battery backup portion of a UPS might or might not be useful for protecting electronics); though it's certainly convenient.

Ever since TECO replaced a faulty underground line (and I had to call their "new construction" group to get engineers that would actually do that diagnosis) my power has actually been very good. Lightning isn't very good at hitting underground lines, the lines transitioning from the poles are well grounded, and my house has not taken a direct strike that I am aware of.

My lines are all suspended, which is the reason I'd like to see the actual voltage spikes. I have never lost any equipment to power problems, although it would have been possible if I hadn't pressured the electrical contractor when they did the service upgrade when I bought the house. The left the three splices and added one of their own, which is why I called. I told the receptionist that I seriously doubt het company's owner would have allowed it to be done on his house, so I wouldn't, either. This was after she told me the owner said it shouldn't be a problem. I have a 200 Amp service to the house and the ground rods were replaced at the time of the upgrade. I borrowed one of those Munster Cable Dr. Noise gadgets for showing people how much noise is on their lines and when I turned it on here, I could hear a baseball game (As I mentioned, I'm really close to a TV/radio antenna farm). I plugged my $9 Office Max surge protector in and heard nothing when I plugged the Dr Noise thing in, which was better than the cheapest Munster power strip.

 

[westom]

Personally, I don't want lightning or the extreme surge from it inside my house, in any way. I would much rather leave it outside, which is what an alternate path accomplishes. ...
For broadcast, does the facility isolate from the service entrance and regulate the voltage?

griffinconst's original question was how many joules should be in a protector. That implies the common misconception that any protector can or will absorb surges. Nothing stops a destructive surge. Only protection means the surge finds earth ground without entering the building.

Either a surge is harmlessly dissipated in earth. Or the surge blows through protection inside appliances. Effective protection has always meant surge current does not enter the building.

Nothing can be isolated, if for no other reason, because AC electricity must be delivered into a building. Surges enter on both overhead and underground wires. A professional's application note demonstrates how single point ground is implemented on two separate structures:
Triple w dot erico dot com slash public/library/fep/technotes slash tncr002 dot pdf

Joules in a plug-in protector are irrelevant since (from the NIST) -

The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Another example. A FL house was repeatedly struck on an exterior bathroom wall. They installed lightning rods. Then lightning again struck the same bathroom wall. Why? Lightning rods were connected to 8 foot ground rods in sand - poor conductive soil. Surges seek distant charges in earth. Better path was bathroom pipes that connected to deeper and conductive limestone. Surge simply found a better (and destructive) path to earth.

Just like a surge protector: what makes lightning rods effective? Earth ground. Expand the earth ground system so that a surge need not find earth, destructively, via the bathroom wall. What is surge protection? Diverting (shunting, connecting, conducting, bonding. clamping) surge currents on a path that remains outside the building.

Same concept applies to surge protectors. As highfish and the WXIA engineer both noted, protection is about that *low impedance* connection to superior earthing. A protector (like lightning rods) is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth ground (ie APC products) means no effective surge protection.

Joules inside a protector are irrelevant without earthing. As the NIST said, that APC is useless if earthing is not properly installed and connected. APC has no dedicated earthing wire - no effective protection. That means no sharp wire bends. A 'less than 10 foot' connection. And other engineering factors posted previously.

Why does APC not discuss any of this? APC does not even claim protection in manufacturer specifications. Profit - not protection - would be APC's motive.

What often protects AV equipment? Same thing that protects the dishwasher, furnace, smoke detectors, bathroom GFCIs, and clock radios. Significant protection already inside every appliance. Earth the typically destructive surge (that occurs maybe once every seven years) so that internal appliance protection is not overwhelmed - even from direct lightning strikes.

A protector without that dedicated earthing wire (ie APC and Monster Cable products) cannot claim effective surge protection. Can even create scary pictures. How do 1300 joules inside an APC absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? APC will not even discuss it. That discussion would threaten profits.

As the NIST says, a protector without proper earthing is useless - no matter how many joules it contains. Reality for the past 100+ years. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - so that surge currents are not inside the building.

 

[JerryLove]

Actually, you posted "The business community doesn't. From GM to IBM to Xerox to Citigroup I've seen surge supression equipment installed at every corporate office." and that doesn't apply to residential uses. Same issue but different level to the solution.

Which was a response to your post (#27) which was a response to westom's post (#24) where he said:

"Why do locations that suffer no damage from direct lightning strikes not install your solution? Why do they, instead, use solutions that have been proven for over 100 years?" - Westom

Which was a reference to his previous similar comments naming telcos, fire departments, 911 centers, and munitions dumps.

It's relevant when it causes a problem at the location in question. If it doesn't cause a problem, it's not relevant.

OK. Then either an UPS provides no protection at all or it provides some. I've already cited evidence it provides some.

I borrowed one of those Munster Cable Dr. Noise gadgets for showing people how much noise is on their lines and when I turned it on here, I could hear a baseball game (As I mentioned, I'm really close to a TV/radio antenna farm). I plugged my $9 Office Max surge protector in and heard nothing when I plugged the Dr Noise thing in, which was better than the cheapest Munster power strip.

That seems odd. Monster is known for charging too much for basic gear, but it's usually funcationl gear.

Then again, I've never played with their power-line stuff at all... or indeed their speaker wire. I suppose the only personal experience I have with monster is their interconnects: which seem to work fine (much like far cheaper interconnects from others)

 

[JerryLove]

griffinconst's original question was how many joules should be in a protector. That implies the common misconception that any protector can or will absorb surges. Nothing stops a destructive surge. Only protection means the surge finds earth ground without entering the building.

The OP asked a damning question that a majority never bothered to ask. Had they asked, nobody would have recommended the APC. Will those few hundred joules inside an APC absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Again, that is what a majority claim because they ignored the numbers.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A concept that has not changed for over 100 years. A concept ignored to sell scam protectors for obscene profits. How many joules in that protector? When did anyone answer the OP’s question?

I'm confused. Is it irrellevent or damning.

So APC is proven useless because they don't rate their units in joules of absorbtion while at the same time you say anyone who does so is also useless because it's a useless way to rate something?

Either a surge is harmlessly dissipated in earth. Or the surge blows through protection inside appliances. Effective protection has always meant surge current does not enter the building.

You let energy enter; therefore had telephone and weather station damage. What earthed that surge? Not your protectors. The telephone and weather station more likely provided surge protection to other appliances. (And neither is invisible.)

So surges can only be handeld outside a building, but you believe that they were handled by a phone inside a building.

You believe that surges can onlt be stopped by making sure the "surge current does not enter a building", but you also assert that "appliance protect themselves".

I assume you also oppose grounded outlets?

Effective protection has always meant surge current does not enter the building.

Nothing can be isolated, if for no other reason, because AC electricity must be delivered into a building. Surges enter on both overhead and underground wires.

So the only effective protection is isolating equipment from surges, but nothing can be isolated.

The APC has NO earthing.

http://www.apc.com/products/resource...=documentation

Installation and operation: Page 10

No earth ground (ie APC products) means no effective surge protection.

You've been pointed to earth grounding in APC's surge supressors. The fact that you keep lying about it says nothing about APC, but much about you.

Nothing stops a destructive surge. Only protection means the surge finds earth ground without entering the building.

Joules inside a protector are irrelevant without earthing. As the NIST said, that APC is useless if earthing is not properly installed and connected. APC has no dedicated earthing wire - no effective protection. That means no sharp wire bends. A 'less than 10 foot' connection. And other engineering factors posted previously.

More likely, appliances protected themselves. Superior protection was inside those appliances – with or without the protector.

Direct lightning strikes to radio antennas, utility wires connected to all household appliances, church steeples, Sun server rooms, every telco switching center everywhere in the world, and munitions dumps. Every one has no damage even from direct lightning strikes by doing the same thing.

So surges can only be stopped before they enter, except that surges against steeples, power lines, and radio towers come from direct hits (and so have already entered), and appliences self-protect from surges already entered: and grounding must always be 10' or less, except that steeples, power poles, and radio antennas routinely get hit more than 10' above the actual ground and you assert they survive because of proper grounding, which mush be within 10' and which must occur before the power enters the (say radio antenna).

So many using hearsay recommended that APC. Where does APC claim any protection in its numeric specs? It does not. It cannot and does not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge.

From http://www.apc.com/products/category...12&segmentID=1

"Surge Protection Devices
Protection from damaging power transients for residential, business and industrial applications "

APC does not even claim protection in manufacturer specifications.

Nothing stops a destructive surge. Only protection means the surge finds earth ground without entering the building.

Earthing means a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. No wire splices. No sharp bends, Wire separated from all other non ground wires.

What often protects AV equipment? Same thing that protects the dishwasher, furnace, smoke detectors, bathroom GFCIs, and clock radios. Significant protection already inside every appliance. Earth the typically destructive surge (that occurs maybe once every seven years) so that internal appliance protection is not overwhelmed - even from direct lightning strikes.

The conflicting claims speak for themselves

The APC has NO earthing.

http://www.apc.com/products/resource...=documentation

Installation and operation: Page 10

A protector without that dedicated earthing wire (ie APC and Monster Cable products) cannot claim effective surge protection. Can even create scary pictures.

The telephone and weather station more likely provided surge protection to other appliances.

Again, there is earthing in APCs supressors.

griffinconst's original question was how many joules should be in a protector. That implies the common misconception that any protector can or will absorb surges. Nothing stops a destructive surge.

How do 1300 joules inside an APC absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? APC will not even discuss it. That discussion would threaten profits.

Are you under the "common misconception that any protector absorbs surges"? You seem to be saying that an APC willl absorb surges but not enough.

As the NIST says, a protector without proper earthing is useless - no matter how many joules it contains. Reality for the past 100+ years. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - so that surge currents are not inside the building.

Like a phone or weather station.

Time will tell, but I think I'm about done responding to you. You aren't really listening, and the conversation is non-productive. If someone still believes you at this point, then nothing I'm going to say is gonig to change it.

 

[westom]

I'm confused. Is it irrellevent or damning. ...
So surges can only be handeld outside a building, but you believe that they were handled by a phone inside a building. ...
You believe that surges can onlt be stopped by making sure the "surge current does not enter a building", but you also assert that "appliance protect themselves". ...
I assume you also oppose grounded outlets?

JerryLove does not read what was posted. For example, nowhere was surge ‘handled’ by a phone inside the building. JerryLove did not read what was posted. Still does not know about protection routinely installed on every phone line. Myths are so well embedded in his thought that he cannot even read posted technical facts from others. Therefore he admits to being confused; can only see contradictions where none exist.

A basic electrical concept: receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. It was posted repeatedly. He did not read the technical reasons why. Did not grasp critically important phrases such as 'less than 10 feet'. Ignored so many reasons why a UPS does not even claim to provide surge protection - does not even claim that protection in numeric specs. Posted repeatedly and he did not read it. Did not dispose of a popular myth: that wire is a perfect conductor. He still assumes safety ground is earth ground; a deeply embedded myth.

JerryLove - everything was consistent. Your problem is twofold. First, you did not read what was posted no matter how many times the technology is reposted. Second, you remain firmly attached to popular myths. For example, you still believe a wall receptacle safety ground is earth ground. Obviously not. You would know that if you learned the posted technology AND if you could dispose of your closely held 'junk science' myths. You still believe safety ground is earth ground? Ignore the significance of 'less than 10 feet'. Myths that APC and Monster Cable use to target those who *know what they are told to believe*.

Your APC 'page 10' post assumes myths such as safety ground is earth ground. It is not. Where does that energy go? The APC can only protect by absorbing energy. Or it earths a surge destructively through adjacent appliances - as defined previously in material you did not read. To believe safety ground is earth ground is to read selectively. Do you know what impedance is? No. Again you failed to read what was posted. You ignored what professionals were saying due to insufficient electrical knowledge and too many closely held myths. Makes you are a perfect target for APC marketing. They do not even claim protection in their tech specs – and you still believe their myth.

That APC does something. Something so trivial that by doing nothing, it accomplishes the same thing. It provides 'near zero' surge protection. 'Near zero' means it does virtually nothing. 'Near zero' also means the naive will only read subjectively. See "Surge Protection" in a sales brochure and that is technical proof. That APC is an obscene profit center.

A protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground may even make appliance damage easier. That is effective protection? That justifies spending $100 per appliance? It is a scam, but it is functional? How embarrassing is that logic? The effective solution - that even protects from direct lightning strikes and remains functional (which those closely held myths say cannot happen) ... costs about $1 per protected appliance. The effective '$1 per' solution is even necessary to protect obscenely overpriced plug-in protectors. Again, scary pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

How many facilities suffer direct strikes routinely with no damage? How many times were those examples posted? How many times did you ignore that 100 years of experience. Why do you repeatedly insist that nothing can protect from direct lightning strikes? You read only what you want to see. More examples that you 1) read selectively, and 2) remain firmly attached to 'junk science' myths that promote APC and Monster Cable products.

A UPS has one useful function - to provide power during blackouts and extreme brownouts. A function that protects from data loss; does not perform hardware protection.

Where is that manufacturer spec that claims what you believe? Even the manufacturer does not claim what you are posting. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Where does APC provide the 'always required' dedicated earthing wire? It does not claim protection in its specs. And yet you still recommend it?

 

[lsiberian]

guys this thread has been severely hijacked and I must suggest you start a new thread in the amp area. This is not the place for Westom to preach his view of things in regards to surge protectors. This thread is old and outdated anyway. Griffin has likely made a selection.

FYI Westom and Highfigh. APC offers lighting strike insurance for it's consumer customers up to 10,000 dollars. I believe Belkin does the same.

 

[JerryLove]

Agreed. Westom some time ago devolved to telling me what I think and what my experiences were while repeating the same conflicting assertions. The conversation is over shy of new information coming up. What could be said was said some time ago.