Outlaw 7000x question

3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
@PENG I found that person rather annoying. Personal belief over rode logic and physical law. You can lead a deaf horse to water but you cant make it drink or listen. :p
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So then any recommendations on speaker upgrade in the $3000 range? Maybe the paradigms are just too laid back for me?
VMPS has given you some good suggestions already, and he is also right about you need to figure out your needs (see his post#29). For example, if you don't listen very loud in a large room, the Philharmonic BMR may be the best sounding speaker in the $2,000 to $3,000 range, if accuracy/neutrality, live like sound is what you like.

 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic Chief
How far do you sit? If you can hear what's actually playing in Stereo at volume 1, you likely have the following conditions:

- Your room is near dead silent, what kind of sound meter you have that can measure down to 36 dB?
@PENG I sit 11 feet away from the stereo Sierra Towers with RAAL 70-20. The room is a 1200 sf basement that is totally underground with a 600sf listening room. The air conditioning is turned off. The RISEPRO Decibel Meter model HT-80A offers the 36db reading at a volume of 1 on the Denon 4700. I was playing NILS Lofgren, Acoustic Live "Kieth Don't Go" on a Denon DCD-800NE CD player. I am the only one in the house at the time.

At 12 on the Denon volume I can easily hear the song and understand the vocal. Even though it's soft. At 3, I can hear the guitar and most of the words but very soft. At one I hear the applause. The vocal is difficult to understand each word but it's obviously still playing at a very low level. It's pretty amazing to me that even at 1 on the dial it doesn't sound silent. Decible meter shows 36.3 reading at 1.

In next test, I used the Denon Audyssey: Levels: Test tone for the front L speaker. At 16 on Denon volume dial the noise is almost gone. At 14 it's so low that if you are not looking for it you will not know its playing. This is with the level in Audyssey set to -2.0db for the speaker and the volume set to 14.

Does any of this help determine how I could use this info to understand how the SINAD readings may apply to my listening room? Thank you!
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG I sit 11 feet away from the stereo Sierra Towers with RAAL 70-20. The room is a 1200 sf basement that is totally underground with a 600sf listening room. The air conditioning is turned off. The RISEPRO Decibel Meter model HT-80A offers the 36db reading at a volume of 1 on the Denon 4700. I was playing NILS Lofgren, Acoustic Live "Kieth Don't Go" on a Denon DCD-800NE CD player. I am the only one in the house at the time.

At 12 on the Denon volume I can easily hear the song and understand the vocal. Even though it's soft. At 3, I can hear the guitar and most of the words but very soft. At one I hear the applause. The vocal is difficult to understand each word but it's obviously still playing at a very low level. It's pretty amazing to me that even at 1 on the dial it doesn't sound silent. Decible meter shows 36.3 reading at 1.

In next test, I used the Denon Audyssey: Levels: Test tone for the front L speaker. At 16 on Denon volume dial the noise is almost gone. At 14 it's so low that if you are not looking for it you will not know its playing. This is with the level in Audyssey set to -2.0db for the speaker and the volume set to 14.

Does any of this help determine how I could use this info to understand how the SINAD readings may apply to my listening room? Thank you!
Since you have run Audyssey auto setup, at you mmp you should be getting about 71 to 75 dB so let's assume 73 dB, with volume at 80.

That means when you turned volume down to 14, the level has dropped by 80-14 = 66 dB.

The test tone is at 73 dB at your mmp, so 73-66 = 7 dB at volume 14 and it would appear you cannot hear the 7 dB at all. This is still unusually good because in my room, the test tone definitely mixed in with the noise floor when I turned the volume down from 0 to -56 or maybe -60 just to be generous to myself, and -60 is about 19.5, so either you hear 5.5 to 9.5 dB better than me, or you also have a quieter room.

Back to your question, it depends on your starting point, that is the peak spl when you listen to music. You know you cannot hear the test tone when it goes down to 7 dB. So it is likely that if you listen to say, music with peak spl from your mmp up to 100 dB (5 dB below reference), then you will likely be able to hear the effects of harmonic distortions that is 100 - 7, that is 93 dB below the fundamental frequency of the signal.

So I think you have excellent hearing and that would put you in the below 20 age group.:D

Keep in mind, this is test tone. Humans are most sensitive to the 2000 to 5,500 Hz range. That means if you use REW to generate a 1 kHz tone, you may be able to hear the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics at even lower levels.

So to be on the safe side, if you want to be sure harmonic distortions produced by your AVR will be below the threshold of audibility, you probably should play it safe and go with SINAD > 90 dB.

I say play it safe, because if you read Gene's bench test reviews he seemed to have suggested that the threshold of audibility for THD+N is probably around 0.025% and not lower, that is about -72 dB. In his review comparison of the THD+N (balanced input) between the CX-A5100 and A5200 he said:


"While 23dB sounds like a really big number, it's important to note that the overall distortion level is still quite low for the CX-A5200 model and below the threshold of audibility in my testing."

And his comments referred to the bench measurements below:


CX-A5100:
Brown: Unbal - 90dB @ 1kHz
Red: Bal -95dB @ 1kHz

CX-A5200:
Purple: Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Blue: Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

So if you go with that comment, 72 dB SINAD is good. If you go with the results of your experiment, I would again, suggest you stick with >90 dB SINAD. If you have the X4700H, it should get you there no problem.
 
K

keepr88

Audioholic Intern
VMPS has given you some good suggestions already, and he is also right about you need to figure out your needs (see his post#29). For example, if you don't listen very loud in a large room, the Philharmonic BMR may be the best sounding speaker in the $2,000 to $3,000 range, if accuracy/neutrality, live like sound is what you like.

My room opens up to an open floor plan in a basement, main room is 30×20×8 and total room space is about 8800 cubic ft in the whole basement. I sit about 16ft from the main speakers and i like it pretty loud. Im looking for dynamics i feel like my system gets loud and its clear but its not very dynamic is the best way i can describe it. The hsus do great they slam in the bottom freq but its missing from the LCR
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic Chief
My room opens up to an open floor plan in a basement, main room is 30×20×8 and total room space is about 8800 cubic ft in the whole basement. I sit about 16ft from the main speakers and i like it pretty loud. Im looking for dynamics i feel like my system gets loud and its clear but its not very dynamic is the best way i can describe it. The hsus do great they slam in the bottom freq but its missing from the LCR
You have a 600sf room that is similar to mine and you are sitting a good distance back. It sounds like you desire speakers that can fill the room and provide punch. I would suggest a speaker with 90db sensitivity and a floor standing model rather than a bookshelf. If the $3,000 range is not flexible I would suggest investigating the Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL 70-20 tweeters. They look small but they are amazingly sensitive and can provide a lot of punch. I am amazed how they fill my room with the Denon 4700 volume at 55. They have a tight mid bass that is very dynamic and works well with the HSU sub.

If I wanted to try a somewhat higher price? I would call Crutchfield and ask them what it would cost to try the JBL HDI-3800 in my home. They have a 60 day in home trial last I looked. They usually have a reasonable return policy. The JBL HDI-3800 also has a 90db sensitivity. I have not heard them but the three 8" Advanced Aluminum Matrix cone woofers are designed for punchy midrange and bass. It sounds like that may be what you are looking for? If you are looking for a speaker with a 37Hz bottom end these will do it.



I could suggest several lower cost bookshelf speakers with the HSU sub, but it sounds like you may be looking for a bigger sound that comes with a floor standing speaker?

One other option I would consider if I was trying to keep price down would be the Monolith by Monoprice THX-460T THX Ultra Certified Tower Speaker.

I use the center that goes with these and it's a strong performer. They offer 89db sensitivity and are very dynamic. They don't offer the nice finish of the Sierra Towers or the walnut JBL HDI-3800 but the sound power from these speakers is strong.
 
K

Kleinst

Audioholic
You have a 600sf room that is similar to mine and you are sitting a good distance back. It sounds like you desire speakers that can fill the room and provide punch. I would suggest a speaker with 90db sensitivity and a floor standing model rather than a bookshelf. If the $3,000 range is not flexible I would suggest investigating the Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL 70-20 tweeters. They look small but they are amazingly sensitive and can provide a lot of punch. I am amazed how they fill my room with the Denon 4700 volume at 55. They have a tight mid bass that is very dynamic and works well with the HSU sub.

If I wanted to try a somewhat higher price? I would call Crutchfield and ask them what it would cost to try the JBL HDI-3800 in my home. They have a 60 day in home trial last I looked. They usually have a reasonable return policy. The JBL HDI-3800 also has a 90db sensitivity. I have not heard them but the three 8" Advanced Aluminum Matrix cone woofers are designed for punchy midrange and bass. It sounds like that may be what you are looking for? If you are looking for a speaker with a 37Hz bottom end these will do it.



I could suggest several lower cost bookshelf speakers with the HSU sub, but it sounds like you may be looking for a bigger sound that comes with a floor standing speaker?

One other option I would consider if I was trying to keep price down would be the Monolith by Monoprice THX-460T THX Ultra Certified Tower Speaker.

I use the center that goes with these and it's a strong performer. They offer 89db sensitivity and are very dynamic. They don't offer the nice finish of the Sierra Towers or the walnut JBL HDI-3800 but the sound power from these speakers is strong.
Has anyone heard the JBL 590s vs the fine speakers mentioned in this thread? I'm curious just how significant a difference in sound quality the extra $500 - $1.5K per speaker yields. I'm a home theater guy exclusively so not sure if that changes the opinion, I'm sure sound is sound.
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Has anyone heard the JBL 590s vs the fine speakers mentioned in this thread? I'm curious just how significant a difference in sound quality the extra $500 - $1.5K per speaker yields.
I have not heard the JBL590's. And what I'm about to say is in no way a bash on them. I'm sure what they sell for ($499) they are an excellent choice based on what other members have said about them.

But I would be willing to Bet the Farm they don't sound remotely close to the Paradigm's, Canton's, Salk's, Asend Acoustics, Philharmonic's, or JBL's mentioned in this thread.
 
K

keepr88

Audioholic Intern
So i got out the db meter and turned off the hsus and had a listening session on average id say i was listening about 88db (with the subs on it was peaks of 104db )What level does everyone else usually listen to music at??
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So i got out the db meter and turned off the hsus and had a listening session on average id say i was listening about 88db (with the subs on it was peaks of 104db )What level does everyone else usually listen to music at??
About 70 dB average, 76 to 85 dB peak in most cases. At such levels I found myself listening to spl almost as loud as that in the concert halls I have been to, listening to classical orchestral music.
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Senior Audioholic
I have not heard the JBL590's. And what I'm about to say is in no way a bash on them. I'm sure what they sell for ($499) they are an excellent choice based on what other members have said about them.

But I would be willing to Bet the Farm they don't sound remotely close to the Paradigm's, Canton's, Salk's, Asend Acoustics, Philharmonic's, or JBL's mentioned in this thread.
I am inclined to agree, but I am fortunate in that I haven’t heard the other speakers...in this case ignorance is bliss!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, my JBL 590/580/530/520c made me move my Ascend Sierra-1s/170SE/200SE to the bedroom (but dropped the 200SEs, its a small bedroom). Size of the room mattered, the Ascend couldn't keep up as well but are great in the smaller room as the JBLs do very well in the larger room. So it might depend on a few things whether someone preferred them over others. I may well like some of the others, who knows. Hard to compare as I've got nothing nearby and while they might carry Paradigm or Canton they're not going to have Salk or Philharmonic and even JBL isn't too likely.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic Chief
So i got out the db meter and turned off the hsus and had a listening session on average id say i was listening about 88db (with the subs on it was peaks of 104db )What level does everyone else usually listen to music at??
Since you like listening at 88-104db from 15' away in a 600sf room, I would stay with floor standing speakers. THX certified not required but would not hurt. As price sounds important, I would think the Monolith by Monoprice THX-460T would give you the sound power you want at a very favorable price.

 
K

keepr88

Audioholic Intern
Since you like listening at 88-104db from 15' away in a 600sf room, I would stay with floor standing speakers. THX certified not required but would not hurt. As price sounds important, I would think the Monolith by Monoprice THX-460T would give you the sound power you want at a very favorable price.

Thank you everyone for the speaker ideas.....soooo many out there to choose from. I am looking hard at the monoprice thx towers also the verus iii grand towers and the polk lsim 707 are both on sale right now. All right about 1000 each.....too hard to decide.
 

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