Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[lovinthehd]

Keep in mind that distance is just a translation for delay....I'm with Peng as far as if all things are proportionate relative to the full set of speakers and your seat it's not going to make a significant difference even with small variations in the numbers. Acoustics can also cause a req program to come out slightly different. I've never bothered worrying about it much, but did just get a newer unit and notice my "distances" are a bit longer than my older Denon did.....and .875 ratio seems about right . I seem to remember the Audyssey engineers (in a really long thread at avsforum on the subject) said it's just a number translation difference on that speed of sound conversion factor they used to put it in terms of "distance".

 

[Rylan]

Do you have the option to compare the two at home before finalizing your decision on the CG3 vs CG5? I don't usually put a lot of weight on subjective reviews, not even @shadyJ (though he is one of the few reviewers I trust as I know he is very knowledgeable and experienced), but I did take notice of what he said:

I don’t specifically know if I have the option to compare the CG23 line versus the CG25 line, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that option is available. Thanks for sharing what @shadyJ mentioned with comparing the two set ups. I’m still thinking ahead as well and if RSL releases a better product potentially in 2024, it would be easier for me to upgrade not having already invested a lot of money into my satellites. But I’m still on the fence on what to do.

Also, circling back to the 12S. Yesterday I cut out and pieced together cardboard to the exact dimensions of the new 12S. The size is much larger when seeing it set up. To the point that I’m a little on the fence with the 12S for only reasons of the size factor. So I am still teetering between (2) 10S’ vs (1) 12S starting out

 

[PENG]

I don’t specifically know if I have the option to compare the CG23 line versus the CG25 line, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that option is available. Thanks for sharing what @shadyJ mentioned with comparing the two set ups. I’m still thinking ahead as well and if RSL releases a better product potentially in 2024, it would be easier for me to upgrade not having already invested a lot of money into my satellites. But I’m still on the fence on what to do.

Also, circling back to the 12S. Yesterday I cut out and pieced together cardboard to the exact dimensions of the new 12S. The size is much larger when seeing it set up. To the point that I’m a little on the fence with the 12S for only reasons of the size factor. So I am still teetering between (2) 10S’ vs (1) 12S starting out

The CG23 speakers are too tiny to integrate well with subs in you medium large room.

If you are limited by your current budget, trade in the 10 inch sub for thev12s and then add the 2nd one later.

Sorry I am encouraging you to spend more now because I know by experience the saying buy once cry once is mostly true according to posts I read.

You are right about anticipating future upgrade options but I think your starting point is the CG25 with a 12s. The 23 and 10vs seems too low a bar for your requirements. But if you are really happy with them now then it's all good.

 

[Rylan]

The CG23 speakers are too tiny to integrate well with subs in you medium large room.

If you are limited by your current budget, trade in the 10 inch sub for thev12s and then add the 2nd one later.

Sorry I am encouraging you to spend more now because I know by experience the saying buy once cry once is mostly true according to posts I read.

You are right about anticipating future upgrade options but I think your starting point is the CG25 with a 12s. The 23 and 10vs seems too low a bar for your requirements. But if you are really happy with them now then it's all good.

Great advice. Maybe I should start an Audioholic Go Fund me. Since I am addicted to better sound, I may need some donations

 

[Rylan]

This weekend I watched the 3 part series titled “Get the Best Bass for Your Home Theater” on the Audioholics channel. It was a 5 hour series with @gene and Anthony Grimani. Anthony has quite the bio https://www.grimanisystems.com/dt_team/anthony-grimani/

On the 3rd video of this series, starting at min 43:00 Gene and Anthony discuss the LFE crossover setting whether it should be 120Hz. Anthony then explains why it shouldn’t be set to 120Hz, but rather why it should be 80 or 90. I know I asked this question earlier in this thread, but I’d be curious if anyone listens to this and shares their thoughts.

 

[PENG]

This weekend I watched the 3 part series titled “Get the Best Bass for Your Home Theater” on the Audioholics channel. It was a 5 hour series with @gene and Anthony Grimani. Anthony has quite the bio https://www.grimanisystems.com/dt_team/anthony-grimani/

On the 3rd video of this series, starting at min 43:00 Gene and Anthony discuss the LFE crossover setting whether it should be 120Hz. Anthony then explains why it shouldn’t be set to 120Hz, but rather why it should be 80 or 90. I know I asked this question earlier in this thread, but I’d be curious if anyone listens to this and shares their thoughts.

I would leave it at 120 Hz for movies. If the recording has intentional contents above 80 Hz on the LFE channel I would want to hear it. The example Gene used above hearing voice from the subwoofer was not about movies. Gene mentioned the DVD-A and even CD as examples, he's right in saying that if you don't have/use bass management then setting LPF to 80 Hz would be better, than setting it to 120 Hz.

So again, for movies, I would leave it at the default setting of 120 Hz but that's just me. You can always try 80 or 90 Hz, that's up to you to do it the way you like it. It's not black and right in this case.

 

[Rylan]

I would leave it at 120 Hz for movies. If the recording has intentional contents above 80 Hz on the LFE channel I would want to hear it. The example Gene used above hearing voice from the subwoofer was not about movies. Gene mentioned the DVD-A and even CD as examples, he's right in saying that if you don't have/use bass management then setting LPF to 80 Hz would be better, than setting it to 120 Hz.

So again, for movies, I would leave it at the default setting of 120 Hz but that's just me. You can always try 80 or 90 Hz, that's up to you to do it the way you like it. It's not black and right in this case.

Thank you for the clarification. That helps. I guess I was taking it as it applied to all sources. This is why I try not to assume something when its in question. Appreciate your feedback

 

[lovinthehd]

This weekend I watched the 3 part series titled “Get the Best Bass for Your Home Theater” on the Audioholics channel. It was a 5 hour series with @gene and Anthony Grimani. Anthony has quite the bio https://www.grimanisystems.com/dt_team/anthony-grimani/

On the 3rd video of this series, starting at min 43:00 Gene and Anthony discuss the LFE crossover setting whether it should be 120Hz. Anthony then explains why it shouldn’t be set to 120Hz, but rather why it should be 80 or 90. I know I asked this question earlier in this thread, but I’d be curious if anyone listens to this and shares their thoughts.

Anthony is talking more about what happens on the recording side so I don't see how it particularly applies to keeping the filter up to 120 generally. I've always left it there, played around with it some but wasn't using just an LFE channel, the bass redirection would make that hard to distinguish. I don't have localization issues at 120 either, tho. Interesting tho.

 

[Rylan]

Anthony is talking more about what happens on the recording side so I don't see how it particularly applies to keeping the filter up to 120 generally. I've always left it there, played around with it some but wasn't using just an LFE channel, the bass redirection would make that hard to distinguish. I don't have localization issues at 120 either, tho. Interesting tho.

Appreciate that feedback as well. I enjoyed listening to Anthony. Some of it was over my head, but I keep getting new things to add to my notes with each watch

 

[lovinthehd]

Appreciate that feedback as well. I enjoyed listening to Anthony. Some of it was over my head, but I keep getting new things to add to my notes with each watch

It's good to gather info. Then some experimentation too.

 

[isolar8001]

I just had an hour phone call with the owner at RSL. Great conversation!

I learned a few things I’ll share. @lovinthehd, you brought up a good question with me and @Danzilla31 when you mentioned if one wireless adapter for the (2) 10s speedwoofers could add some complexity to delay related needs? The answer I got was that it would be best to have 2 wireless adapters. Since my 4700 has two independent sub outs, in order to keep both of them independent from each other it would require having two wireless adapters as one would not allow for this.

This next part I’m pulling from memory from our conversation so I’m hoping I recall this correctly. He said that with 1 Speedwoofer, 95% of what you hear is 20Hz and above and then at -3dB it then begins to roll off. By adding a second speedwooferwould allow for a +3dB increase on all frequencies, or possibly up to +6dB if they are stacked.

Next is RSL’s new 12” Speedwoofer, the 12S. It should be available sometime around March. Original release was supposed to be January but it sounds like it will now be pushed out a bit. The price is not set yet but may be around the $699 to $799 range once the shipping is worked out. The 12S measures 19 1/2” Wide, 22 1/2” High, and 22”Deep. This Sub can get down to 16Hz with no EQ, or room correction applied. It has very high SPL and very high accuracy. Also Gene had a video with the guys at RSL talking about the new 12S. They start talking about it at min 52:00.

A few specs on the 12S:

• 12” Ultra a ultra linear high excursion woofer
• Integrated woofer heat sink shorting ring
• Remote control with front panel display (sleep mode)
• Multi-Mode SP settings for every room
• Wired in rear connection for custom integration
• Proprietary a compression guide tuning and baffling
• 16HZ -3dB Anechoic (Ref. Setting with no SP boost or extension)
• 500 RMS/1550W peak amplifier power output
• Turbulent free rest vent
• Adjustable high-pass output 50 - 250Hz w/bypass function from speaker level or line level input

I'm very excited to see the 12S....I have 3 Speedwoofers (2 MK1's and a MK2)
Im using CG25's and CG5's also.
I would expect that the 12S is going to be a game changer for RSL...they have purposely avoided making a bigger sub all along, and wouldn't come out with this one unless it was exceptional.
RSL is the best...Joe sent me a new amp and a free wireless module for one of subs that was acting a little peculiar.
A post of mine from AVS....

RSL Speakers Owners Thread

www.avsforum.com

 

[Rylan]

Any thoughts on these Monolith speakers if I’m comparing them to RSL’s CG3/23 and CG5s? I see they have a B5, and a B6 series. Which satellites would be better performers if based on measurements, RSL or Monolith?


Monolith by Monoprice Encore B6 Bookshelf Speaker
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=43150

Monolith by Monoprice Encore C6 Center Channel Speaker
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=43151

 

[isolar8001]

That's really hard to say until you would actually hear them. The CG5's are twice the price of those B6's though.

Erin has reviewed the Monoliths. Erin is very good at speaker reviews (with the best measurements for those that care) and his opinion is well regarded.

Monoprice Encore C6 Center Channel Speaker Review

Monoprice Encore T6 Tower Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[isolar8001]

Nice review of the new RSL's for you also...

https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetAudiophile/comments/zoe14y

 

[johnner1999]

If I’m too off topic my apologies in advance.

I see both have dialogue enhancements options (new for denon I believe)

but I see the 3800 has center stage spread again (has been missing in the x700 I think) - does onkyo have that ability to blend the center outputs to left and right, while maintaining full power to the center speaker still?

 

[dlaloum]

If I’m too off topic my apologies in advance.

I see both have dialogue enhancements options (new for denon I believe)

but I see the 3800 has center stage spread again (has been missing in the x700 I think) - does onkyo have that ability to blend the center outputs to left and right, while maintaining full power to the center speaker still?

I thought the center spread function was a part of the Dolby Surround decoder, and therefore available for any device with that licence... decision on whether to implement a particular feature would of course be up to the manufacturer, but I would be surprised to be told that Denon AVR's didn't have it!!!

It is a critical function if you want to listen to Stereo through more than 2 channels... with it Dolby Surround is almost as good as the old PLII was with stereo music.... without it, you need to drop back to a stereo setting and not use the center channel.... which narrows the sweet spot.

 

[PENG]

If I’m too off topic my apologies in advance.

I see both have dialogue enhancements options (new for denon I believe)

but I see the 3800 has center stage spread again (has been missing in the x700 I think) - does onkyo have that ability to blend the center outputs to left and right, while maintaining full power to the center speaker still?

The x4700h must have the center spread, because even my much older x4400h has it. IF irc, it was added via one of the FW updates.

 

[ban25]

The x4700h must have the center spread, because even my much older x4400h has it. IF irc, it was added via one of the FW updates.

The X3700H has it. I don't listen to upscaled music without it.

 

[lovinthehd]

The x4700h must have the center spread, because even my much older x4400h has it. IF irc, it was added via one of the FW updates.

I don't see it on mine....didn't come up in the manual either. My 4520 has it am pretty sure.

 

[ban25]

I don't see it on mine....didn't come up in the manual either. My 4520 has it am pretty sure.

Make sure your firmware is updated and also that you are currently in Dolby Surround mode. At that point, check under Surround Parameter in either the OSD, mobile app, or web control.