Old Kimber KCAG Silver or new DH Labs Air Matrix?

[lovinthehd]

agreed, I don't either, but there are plenty that do !

That would be a pretty small pool...wouldn't call it plenty.

 

[Wildings]

Maybe I misunderstood this from your initial post "for about the same price ($235) could get new DH Labs Air Matrix or old used set of Kimber Silver which new ten or so years ago cost about $700". I don't consider $2k headphones anywhere near modest consumer level....YMMV

Have not purchased either of those cables, was researching the difference, which led me to this forum. Never got an opiniin on my original question. Overall, I am a modest rather than high end consumer.

Oh, but a hearing tests at what level you hear the faintest test tone, hearing loss. So, it would matter if your conjecture has value.

Clarify "it would matter if your conjecture has value"

 

[lovinthehd]

May not have purchased them but you seem to view their quality/value as important/relevant....

Have not purchased either of those cables, was researching the difference, which led me to this forum. Never got an opiniin on my original question. Overall, I am a modest rather than high end consumer.

Clarify "it would matter if your conjecture has value"

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Clarify "it would matter if your conjecture has value"

This is what I responded to:
I am talking about subtilties, not "do you hear it now" testing.
And that you need, in essence, better cables to hear such subtle differences.
Both conjectures. Hearing test is at what lowest level can you hear the tone, a single frequency tone at that.
Then you are also talking about music subtlety, a very complex signal that is much more difficult to detect small differences between two presentations where time has elapsed and memory has faded. Yes, it is a game of memory unlike the hearing test where tones are not repeated.

 

[Mikado463]

Never got an opiniin on my original question. Overall, I am a modest rather than high end consumer.

it's been almost 4 days since you started your post, by now you must realize what the 'tone' is here on this forum with respect to cable, wire, etc. You will not feel much love from the inmates here, if that is what you're looking for.

You stated that you have a preference for silver, whether that be perceived or actual it doesn't matter, if the psychoacoustic side of your brain is satisfied and it helps you enjoy your music better....... all's good !

 

[Speedskater]

But can you hear qualities that cant be measured? Or, is your view....if it can't be measured, it does not exist? (That is why audio salesmen refer to EE's as Flat Earthers...if it cant be measured or proven, it does not exist. I am just recently becomming aware of these camps....just a modest quality component consumer. I never bought a green magic marker for my CD's, either.

Well none of us can hear inside a cable. What matters inside the cable are voltage and current. It's easy to measure whether the voltages and currents inside two cables are the same or different. If they are the same, then what you hear at the output of your system will be the same.

 

[John Dix]

Good morning, i would like to add , the ears are connected to a wonderful thing,The Human Brain! No one hears exactly the same. No one reacts the same to different genres of music,Not every one likes the same kind of movie. Some are audio only Lovers / Some of us Love Music / Home Theater. Some will be happy with a small refined setup while others want the most elaborate up to date setup available to mankind. Hooray, there is room for all!The mind is an intrinsic thing, some hear not much difference between a set of Polks and a set of B&W / some want Vinyl/some only digital, Wow what a myriad of choices. To specifically address your original question. Wiring is not just wiring, just like you can hardly get the computer you bought home before a newer better unit hits the shelf. Electronics Evolve, Lots of people buy a new smart phone yearly because Technology never rests! I replaced even my A/C power cables w/ Transparent cables, Wow, what a difference,but my Wife never picked up on it and she listens everyday! LoL . You are not trying to please us, you want to please YOU !!! Having said that HDMI is evolving at a tremendous pace . 2.2 is here and the future / 4K ultra HDR, / 8K in Japan is on the way here.[someday] Apple 4K /Netflix 4k/ Amazon Prime stream 4K ! You must have the right cables, It's like trying to eat soup without a bowl without them.Seriously, new shielding/ NR / new wire alloys/new end terminal technology even in glass and epoxy techniques / directional signaling path technology, I could go on and on. IMHO you should check out the newest AudioQuest offerings, even from the lower cost Forest HDMI to the Vodka or Cinnamon Hdmi, they have become one of the Best of the Best! The Vodka accommodates high speed ethernet, please check them out before you buy, do it for your self , I hear the vast difference, i believe you will too. also Incorporate balanced XLR in/out cables at any opportunity you might have.
Thanks Good Luck

 

[Wildings]

May not have purchased them but you seem to view their quality/value as important/relevant....

it's been almost 4 days since you started your post, by now you must realize what the 'tone' is here on this forum with respect to cable, wire, etc. You will not feel much love from the inmates here, if that is what you're looking for.

You stated that you have a preference for silver, whether that be perceived or actual it doesn't matter, if the psychoacoustic side of your brain is satisfied and it helps you

Good morning, i would like to add , the ears are connected to a wonderful thing,The Human Brain! No one hears exactly the same. No one reacts the same to different genres of music,Not every one likes the same kind of movie. Some are audio only Lovers / Some of us Love Music / Home Theater. Some will be happy with a small refined setup while others want the most elaborate up to date setup available to mankind. Hooray, there is room for all!The mind is an intrinsic thing, some hear not much difference between a set of Polks and a set of B&W / some want Vinyl/some only digital, Wow what a myriad of choices. To specifically address your original question. Wiring is not just wiring, just like you can hardly get the computer you bought home before a newer better unit hits the shelf. Electronics Evolve, Lots of people buy a new smart phone yearly because Technology never rests! I replaced even my A/C power cables w/ Transparent cables, Wow, what a difference,but my Wife never picked up on it and she listens everyday! LoL . You are not trying to please us, you want to please YOU !!! Having said that HDMI is evolving at a tremendous pace . 2.2 is here and the future / 4K ultra HDR, / 8K in Japan is on the way here.[someday] Apple 4K /Netflix 4k/ Amazon Prime stream 4K ! You must have the right cables, It's like trying to eat soup without a bowl without them.Seriously, new shielding/ NR / new wire alloys/new end terminal technology even in glass and epoxy techniques / directional signaling path technology, I could go on and on. IMHO you should check out the newest AudioQuest offerings, even from the lower cost Forest HDMI to the Vodka or Cinnamon Hdmi, they have become one of the Best of the Best! The Vodka accommodates high speed ethernet, please check them out before you buy, do it for your self , I hear the vast difference, i believe you will too. also Incorporate balanced XLR in/out cables at any opportunity you might have.
Thanks Good Luck

Thank you!

 

[Swerd]

Can we agree that there are qualities to music reproduction than can not be scientifically measured?

There is no need to agree or disagree on that when it can be determined by listening tests. In fact, worrying over such matters can be a distraction, a potential source of bias, while doing these tests. If you agree, then why try to test it when you already believe it cannot be scientifically measured. If you disagree, because you can't accept the idea that a simple wire could possibly make a difference, then why bother with the test? To do a fair listening test, you have to agree to suspend your belief or disbelief, and accept the test results.

If we can, then I am interested in auditioning in a blind test the same song with two different cables. Waiting for a repaired silver headphone cable which I will compare to a stock Audeze cable....and a new DHLabs cable to replace an ancient Monster cable. Should be able to post results next week. I am pretty sure I will be able to tell the silver headphone cables 5 out of 5 times. I noticed difference and preferred immediately (no "break in" haha!)

When you run the test be certain to include negative and positive controls.

The basic test, if I understand your intentions, will involve you listening to your headphones while someone else, not you, switches the headphone cables. You must not know which cable is in use.

The negative control is easy, listen to headphones while someone else, not you, goes through a mock cable switch. Instead of listening to cable A vs. cable B, you will be comparing A to A, or B to B. How many times do you hear a difference under those conditions? It won't be zero. You must then subtract that negative control value from that of the A vs. B test.

For example (I'm just making up some numbers here to make it easy to talk about it) let's say the real test shows you can hear differences between A and B 75% of the time, and the negative control test shows that you hear differences between A and a or B and B 25% of the time. 75% minus 25% = 50%. That wouldn't be bad. However if the real test resulted in 50% and the negative control was 50%, subtracting would get you 0%.

A good positive control test is more difficult. I'll postpone discussing that for the time being. However, if you do get positive results, a suitable positive control becomes necessary to make your results believable.

Statistics are also necessary. If you end up with a positive percentage after subtracting the negative control, you have to deal with what statisticians call confidence levels. Typically, they like to see confidence levels of at least 95%. That means the if you repeat the test 20 times, you would expect to be correct 19 times. You may not like hearing that, but a 95% confidence level is the minimum. It's not setting the bar too high.

My point is that doing a convincing listening test is not so simple as doing 5 trials when a friend switches the cables while you don't know what cable he chooses.

 

[Swerd]

Good morning, i would like to add , the ears are connected to a wonderful thing,The Human Brain! No one hears exactly the same. No one reacts the same to different genres of music,Not every one likes the same kind of movie… …

Your first statement almost got me to nod my head in agreement. We all hear with ears and brain. They're hard wired together. That's the purpose of listening tests, to separate what is actually detected by the ears from what is perceived by the brain. The brain is the source of all those attitudes, beliefs, and expectations that so influence what we perceive.

You said, "No one hears exactly the same". In fact, most human ears detect sound in a remarkably similar way. It's that pesky brain that can interpret things so differently.

All the rest of what you say assumes, without any testing, that all those various technical developments must make an audible difference. How can you know that for certain without trying to bypass the brain's known ability to influence how we perceive things?

 

[Wildings]

Thank you for your input, I appreciate it.

 

[lovinthehd]

There's always being impressed by placebo effect IMO Audioquest is crap science overpriced charlatan style cable....

 

[John Dix]

In the world it is only a perception or belief that we all hear the same , We do not. There are some Just as in Golf or Racing,even table tennis. The hand to eye acuity / reflexes, that intangible something that separates some from others or we would all be able to shoot -12 at the Masters like Speith. We all are subjected to different environments as we age, Loud environments produce hearing loss no matter how controlled the test . The brain only processes what it receives. Some posses the acuity in their hearing that someone with a hearing loss cannot conceive because they do not hear it, therefore the brain will not process it. Some have damaged their hearing and do not hear certain htz frequencies either high or low, but usually higher frequencies are lost first. On the other hand just as someone that is disabled learns to overcome their disabilities, so can someone with due diligence teach the brain appreciable differences in musical nuances,and melodic phrases. Therefore IMHO the brain / hearing is not a cut and dry test but something one learns to appreciate in the way that is within their individual ability to learn,discern and appreciate. So to me I can hear the difference between my cables from 15 years ago and now, trying to take in account the vast differences in the Pre/Amp / Receiver tech available today. Just Sayin

 

[Wildings]

There's always being impressed by placebo effect IMO Audioquest is crap science overpriced charlatan style cable....

IMO you have been personally antagonistic, and disrespectful of the opinions of others. It is appropriate that you omitted the traditional "H" in your "IMHO". I came here seeking information, and thankfully your obstreperous persona has been balanced by pleasant, patient, informative and positive posts by other forum members. I have
gained insight here, and appreciate those who provided it without being abrasive. Thanks, and keep the wax out of your ears, y'all!

In the world it is only a perception or belief that we all hear the same , We do not. There are some Just as in Golf or Racing,even table tennis. The hand to eye acuity / reflexes, that intangible something that separates some from others or we would all be able to shoot -12 at the Masters like Speith. We all are subjected to different environments as we age, Loud environments produce hearing loss no matter how controlled the test . The brain only processes what it receives. Some posses the acuity in their hearing that someone with a hearing loss cannot conceive because they do not hear it, therefore the brain will not process it. Some have damaged their hearing and do not hear certain htz frequencies either high or low, but usually higher frequencies are lost first. On the other hand just as someone that is disabled learns to overcome their disabilities, so can someone with due diligence teach the brain appreciable differences in musical nuances,and melodic phrases. Therefore IMHO the brain / hearing is not a cut and dry test but something one learns to appreciate in the way that is within their individual ability to learn,discern and appreciate. So to me I can hear the difference between my cables from 15 years ago and now, trying to take in account the vast differences in the Pre/Amp / Receiver tech available today. Just Sayin

Thank you, good post.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... from the inmates here, ...

The inmates are over there at AA.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... Thanks, and keep the wax out of your ears, y'all!
....

Is that really necessary and a valid sarcasm? Is that the cause of not hearing differences, earwax?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Wiring is not just wiring, just like you can hardly get the computer you bought home before a newer better unit hits the shelf. Electronics Evolve, Lots of people buy a new smart phone yearly because Technology never rests!

Are you really equating wire to other technological advances? Seriously?
Oh, about that computer. There are better ones on the shelf before you even bought that one, a choice which you buy, the best or something else.

Good thing you didn't bring up a car analogy.

I replaced even my A/C power cables w/ Transparent cables, Wow, what a difference,but my Wife never picked up on it and she listens everyday! LoL . ...

And the real answer is that your wife was not fooled by expectation bias while you were. Rather simple.
Good thing science came up with tests to minimize the effects of such biases, including subconscious bias.

 

[Wildings]

Is that really necessary and a valid sarcasm? Is that the cause of not hearing differences, earwax?

Not sarcasm, an admonition!

 

[mtrycrafts]

In the world it is only a perception or belief that we all hear the same , We do not. There are some Just as in Golf or Racing,even table tennis. The hand to eye acuity / reflexes, that intangible something that separates some from others or we would all be able to shoot -12 at the Masters like Speith.

Unbelievable correlation. Please tell me why you need your eyes or know which component you listen to?
And am glad that when we listen to Sound of Silence, it will be the same song to others and not Let it Be to others.

We all are subjected to different environments as we age, Loud environments produce hearing loss no matter how controlled the test . The brain only processes what it receives. Some posses the acuity in their hearing that someone with a hearing loss cannot conceive because they do not hear it, therefore the brain will not process it. Some have damaged their hearing and do not hear certain htz frequencies either high or low, but usually higher frequencies are lost first. On the other hand just as someone that is disabled learns to overcome their disabilities, so can someone with due diligence teach the brain appreciable differences in musical nuances,and melodic phrases. Therefore IMHO the brain / hearing is not a cut and dry test but something one learns to appreciate in the way that is within their individual ability to learn,discern and appreciate. So to me I can hear the difference between my cables from 15 years ago and now, trying to take in account the vast differences in the Pre/Amp / Receiver tech available today. Just Sayin

Unreal. You can remember what your cable sounded 15 years ago and today? How can that be tested? Really?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not sarcasm, an admonition!

Same applies.