Old Kimber KCAG Silver or new DH Labs Air Matrix?

[lovinthehd]

What I hear does not necessarily have to be faithful to the engineer's master....but those qualities (soundstage and separation) should be discernable to me as a listner, and more or less so depending on how they are delivered to my ear. What I am curious to find out about is the effect of the conduit which carries them (not the reproduction components).

Yeah, my mind was wandering compared to what you're trying to compare. Still, it's a nebulous thing to an extent...and a preference perhaps as to how it's achieved.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just another facet...when I was speaking with a Cable Guy today and mentioned I had an old cable...he said they can wear out. Hmm...possibly the sheathing if subjected to constant moving around? Mine hasnt moved in ten years. But the core?? Ahh, if there is a "break in" period, should I accept that there is a worn out stage?

LOL I can see a cable breaking at the connector/shield/wires etc but wearing out just by flexing without breaking...nah. If you accept break-in of wire as I mentioned before, I can do that for the relatively inexpensive price of $100 per cable for you...I could offer the try and wear it out for you but that would take longer and cost more

 

[Wildings]

LOL I can see a cable breaking at the connector/shield/wires etc but wearing out just by flexing without breaking...nah. If you accept break-in of wire as I mentioned before, I can do that for the relatively inexpensive price of $100 per cable for you...I could offer the try and wear it out for you but that would take longer and cost more

I have even heard of people using specially created CD's for cable break in, with specific notes and length cycles. Whatever could be expected to change as a result in the "conduit" is beyond my limited comprehension....but cable break in seems to be a possibility believed in by many.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have even heard of people using specially created CD's for cable break in, with specific notes and length cycles. Whatever could be expected to change as a result in the "conduit" is beyond my limited comprehension....but cable break in seems to be a possibility believed in by many.

Oh there's all sorts of hardware & speaker break-in myths out there, too. Ever hear of the green marker tweak for CDs? There's all sorts of crazy in audiophilia.

 

[slipperybidness]

Just another facet...when I was speaking with a Cable Guy today and mentioned I had an old cable...he said they can wear out. Hmm...possibly the sheathing if subjected to constant moving around? Mine hasnt moved in ten years. But the core?? Ahh, if there is a "break in" period, should I accept that there is a worn out stage?

The only way a cable can "wear out" is if a mechanical stress has caused a poor mechanical connection, or if the metal has corroded throughout and thus has a poor electrical connection.

Otherwise, to claim that a cable has "worn out", clearly the person does not understand the underlying physical/chemical properties that allow a particular material to conduct (or not).

https://www.quora.com/How-does-band-theory-explain-electrical-conductivity-of-metals

 

[Wildings]

Oh there's all sorts of hardware & speaker break-in myths out there, too. Ever hear of the green marker tweak for CDs? There's all sorts of crazy in audiophilia.

I had not heard of the green marker myth...looked it up on Snopes...great story, good lesson. Thank you.

 

[MrBoat]

Oh there's all sorts of hardware & speaker break-in myths out there, too. Ever hear of the green marker tweak for CDs? There's all sorts of crazy in audiophilia.

And don't forget the smiley face arrangement on the graphic EQ, for if it 'looks' happy, it must be happy.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Have never been to one. I am talking about subtilties, not "do you hear it now" testing. ..

Oh, but a hearing tests at what level you hear the faintest test tone, hearing loss. So, it would matter if your conjecture has value.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What I hear does not necessarily have to be faithful to the engineer's master....but those qualities (soundstage and separation) should be discernable to me as a listner, and more or less so depending on how they are delivered to my ear. What I am curious to find out about is the effect of the conduit which carries them (not the reproduction components).

And, all of your concerns depends on the mastering, your speakers capability to reproduce and your room's interaction. The cable is insignificant, below thresholds.
But, no one is stopping anyone from using whatever they want. Only issue is claims made that can be tested for merit.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just another facet...when I was speaking with a Cable Guy today and mentioned I had an old cable...he said they can wear out. Hmm...possibly the sheathing if subjected to constant moving around? Mine hasnt moved in ten years. But the core?? Ahh, if there is a "break in" period, should I accept that there is a worn out stage?

Of course that cable guy will tell you that. How will he sell more cables if you never replace what you have.
How would shoe companies stay in business if your shoes would not wear out? Oh, yes, the first lady of yesteryears in the Philippines she just collected them.

 

[Wildings]

And, all of your concerns depends on the mastering, your speakers capability to reproduce and your room's interaction. The cable is insignificant, below thresholds.
But, no one is stopping anyone from using whatever they want. Only issue is claims made that can be tested for merit.

Can we agree that there are qualities to music reproduction than can not be scientifically measured? If we can, then I am interested in auditioning in a blind test the same song with two different cables. Waiting for a repaired silver headphone cable which I will compare to a stock Audeze cable....and a new DHLabs cable to replace an ancient Monster cable. Should be able to post results next week. I am pretty sure I will be able to tell the silver headphone cables 5 out of 5 times. I noticed difference and preferred immediately (no "break in" haha!)

 

[Speedskater]

If cables did break-in then the science, instrumentation and medical fields would have noticed unexpected changes in their readings. If audio cables break-in then all those other will break-in too.
Please don't say that electricity in audio systems is different than electricity anywhere else.
And no, you can't hear things that are smaller than can be measured.

 

[slipperybidness]

Can we agree that there are qualities to music reproduction than can not be scientifically measured? If we can, then I am interested in auditioning in a blind test the same song with two different cables. Waiting for a repaired silver headphone cable which I will compare to a stock Audeze cable....and a new DHLabs cable to replace an ancient Monster cable. Should be able to post results next week. I am pretty sure I will be able to tell the silver headphone cables 5 out of 5 times. I noticed difference and preferred immediately (no "break in" haha!)

Ahh, but your testing protocol must be scientifically controlled in order to provide anything significant.

Like a properly controlled Double Blind Test. Otherwise, we have bias at play.

Humans are biased, and it is incredibly difficult to defeat human bias.

Now, we also have the question, "just because it sounds different, does that mean that one is more accurate to the original signal"?

 

[lovinthehd]

I had not heard of the green marker myth...looked it up on Snopes...great story, good lesson. Thank you.

Cable myths are right behind that...

 

[Wildings]

If cables did break-in then the science, instrumentation and medical fields would have noticed unexpected changes in their readings. If audio cables break-in then all those other will break-in too.
Please don't say that electricity in audio systems is different than electricity anywhere else.
And no, you can't hear things that are smaller than can be measured.

But can you hear qualities that cant be measured? Or, is your view....if it can't be measured, it does not exist? (That is why audio salesmen refer to EE's as Flat Earthers...if it cant be measured or proven, it does not exist. I am just recently becomming aware of these camps....just a modest quality component consumer. I never bought a green magic marker for my CD's, either.

 

[lovinthehd]

How can someone who buys "audiophile" headphones for $2k plus and cables for several hundred dollars be a modest quality component consumer?

 

[Wildings]

How can someone who buys "audiophile" headphones for $2k plus and cables for several hundred dollars be a modest quality component consumer?

The Audeze cans I can hear and compare....not really top end.....well I suppose compared to Dre Beats or whatever they may be. Dont own and cables that cost "hundreds of dollars". I replaced the stock Audeze cabels with silver from a guy with a soldering iron for the same price of replacement Audeze ones. Then had the old Audeze ones repaired. And as I say, I can tell them apart. But will do a fair test.

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe I misunderstood this from your initial post "for about the same price ($235) could get new DH Labs Air Matrix or old used set of Kimber Silver which new ten or so years ago cost about $700". I don't consider $2k headphones anywhere near modest consumer level....YMMV

 

[slipperybidness]

But can you hear qualities that cant be measured? Or, is your view....if it can't be measured, it does not exist? (That is why audio salesmen refer to EE's as Flat Earthers...if it cant be measured or proven, it does not exist. I am just recently becomming aware of these camps....just a modest quality component consumer. I never bought a green magic marker for my CD's, either.

If it can't be measured, then how do you know that you have achieved your goal in a reproducible manner?

If it can't be measured, then is it just a crap shoot that you met your goal on each individual unit that gets produced?

Remember, ALL MANUFACTURING HAS VARIATION, it's the nature of the beast.

I have never heard a decent scientist or engineer say "it can't be measured so it does not exist". I interact with several of each on a daily basis, for the last 20 years. How many scientists and engineers do these real flat-earthers (the magic cable guys) interact with daily? They may say "it is below our limit of detection" or "we may not be making the correct measurements to capture this phenomenon".

Scientists are inherently skeptical and inherently seek data and facts to explain nature.

 

[Mikado463]

I don't consider $2k headphones anywhere near modest consumer level....YMMV

agreed, I don't either, but there are plenty that do !