Official Denon AVR-5805 Review Support Thread

[TimG]

I got digital 5.1 to work! It seems I had to actually make the changes twice on the 5805. Setting up DENON Link and 1394 was the ticket! Also, I immediately saved the config! What a great benefit! Now to get my two surround back speakers installed for 7.1!

 

[briansmith]

Gene,

Any update from Denon as to why the EQ does not work for 100 hz and below?

I'm still a tad peeved about this as I sold my Velodyne DD-18 w/ had an awesome sub EQ.

I anxiously await an update!

-Brian

 

[gene]

Brian;

Why did you sell your sub? That is one awesome sub!!!

I am currently working on a 3 sub install on the AVR-5805 and will be writing up an article about it shortly. I should hear back from Denon Japan sometime late next week on the Audyssey issue.

Regardless, it is doubtful Audyssey can replace the powerful tool built into your Velodyne for mitigating bass issues.

 

[briansmith]

Brian;

Why did you sell your sub? That is one awesome sub!!!

I am currently working on a 3 sub install on the AVR-5805 and will be writing up an article about it shortly. I should hear back from Denon Japan sometime late next week on the Audyssey issue.

Regardless, it is doubtful Audyssey can replace the powerful tool built into your Velodyne for mitigating bass issues.

Gene,

I sold the DD-18 because it did not have enough output to fill my large room. I ended up buying an SVS PB2 Ultra instead. Also at this time I bought the 5805 to replace my 59TXI receiver. I thought that the 5805 would provide a subwoofer EQ and I would no longer need the DD-18. Unless Denon fixes the problem I'll be forced to sell the the SVS/Denon and go back to my 59TXi/DD-18 combo. I just can't believe that Denon lets this thing out of the gate w/out the sub EQ working. I also am not sure why you guys gave it such a high rating when it remains to be seen if it works as advertised (which is currently NOT the case). Not having a subwoofer is a big deal to me since I have heard what a good EQ can do.

-Brian

 

[Geoh]

Gene,

I sold the DD-18 because it did not have enough output to fill my large room. I ended up buying an SVS PB2 Ultra instead. Also at this time I bought the 5805 to replace my 59TXI receiver. I thought that the 5805 would provide a subwoofer EQ and I would no longer need the DD-18. Unless Denon fixes the problem I'll be forced to sell the the SVS/Denon and go back to my 59TXi/DD-18 combo. I just can't believe that Denon lets this thing out of the gate w/out the sub EQ working. I also am not sure why you guys gave it such a high rating when it remains to be seen if it works as advertised (which is currently NOT the case). Not having a subwoofer is a big deal to me since I have heard what a good EQ can do.

-Brian

WOW, a SVS PB2 Ultra has more output than the DD-18?
That's kind of surprising.... to me.

I'm also experiencing a lack of Audyssey EQ from about 80hz and below.
Very Mysterious............
Even so, Audyssey EQ makes my system sound so much better than it's ever sounded before (from 80hz up). I just hope they get the sub EQ thing fixed soon.

geoh

 

[Geoh]

It would be interesting to hear from those with properly operating 5805's.
Any of you out there?

geoh

 

[Audioholics]

Unless Denon fixes the problem I'll be forced to sell the the SVS/Denon and go back to my 59TXi/DD-18 combo. I just can't believe that Denon lets this thing out of the gate w/out the sub EQ working. I also am not sure why you guys gave it such a high rating when it remains to be seen if it works as advertised (which is currently NOT the case).

That's a strong opinion, Brian. The sub part of the Audessey system, while certainly a big deal, is only a piece of the pie. As a reviewer you need to take the entire system into account when rating it. If we graded each product we review on our pet peeves I fear that no one would get above a 2. Currently, nobody has a receiver or processor with as many bass management options and overall features as the 5805 - regardless of price. It's hard to grade it lower when it's pretty much setting the bar for all other products that come after it.

We're getting to the bottom of Audyssey and sub-EQ'ing - and we noted the problem in the initial review as well as every time someone has brought it up. Since we're not going to make stuff up off the top of our heads, we're running our tests and waiting on various responses from the people who design the systems before we make a final statement on the matter.

 

[hjones4841]

Clint: For what its worth, my 5805 is definately doing something to the subwoofer EQ. I don't have measuring equipment to quantify it, but with Audyssey on, the sub (Velo FSR-18) is much better integrated with the mains and the response is much smoother. Mine may be a more recent build (shipped from Denon, CA to local dealer about 4 weeks ago) that has updated firmware. Let us know when Denon posts a firware upgrade and I will load it on mine to see if it makes any difference.

 

[briansmith]

That's a strong opinion, Brian. The sub part of the Audessey system, while certainly a big deal, is only a piece of the pie. As a reviewer you need to take the entire system into account when rating it. If we graded each product we review on our pet peeves I fear that no one would get above a 2. Currently, nobody has a receiver or processor with as many bass management options and overall features as the 5805 - regardless of price. It's hard to grade it lower when it's pretty much setting the bar for all other products that come after it.

We're getting to the bottom of Audyssey and sub-EQ'ing - and we noted the problem in the initial review as well as every time someone has brought it up. Since we're not going to make stuff up off the top of our heads, we're running our tests and waiting on various responses from the people who design the systems before we make a final statement on the matter.

Clint,

I can respect that differnet people have different priorities when it comes to the Denon's performance.

I received a direct response from Denon today. According to them the Denon only EQs the sub down to 40hz. This is a direct contradiction to what many of us had been told prior to the realease of the unit. I just wish they were at least right on the 40hz but they are not. The EQ actually stops equalizing around 80-100hz as your tests and mine have proven so far. Did you happen to notice that when you are running the auto setup that the unit did not play anything close to a frequency sweep?

While I do feel misled I will chalk it up to a lesson learned.

-Brian

 

[audyssey]

We have identified a problem in the firmware that was mysteriously not engaging the subwoofer filter on some units. The filter was being calculated, but not being engaged.

This has been fixed and the firmware update from Denon should be imminent.

Furthermore, it is NOT true that MultEQ only corrects to 40 Hz. I am not sure why Denon is saying this. The MultEQ filters are designed to correct as much as possible down to 20 Hz.

Finally, in response to a question about frequency sweeps. We do not use a frequency sweep in the traditional sense. The Audyssey test signal plays a custom-designed test signal that quickly covers 20 Hz to 20 kHz. When it plays from the satellites it sounds like a "thwack" and when it plays from the sub it sounds like a "thud".

The ideal sub connection is one in which the 5805 sub-out is connected to a sub input that does not have a low-pass filter. That would interfere with the 5805 bass management, cause additional delay, and also interfere with the MultEQ sub filter. If no such input exists on the sub, then the low pass filter frequency should be turned up as high as possible to minimize such problems. If there is a level control, it should be set to the half-way (12 o'clock) point.

Regards,
Chris

 

[gene]

Thanks for the update Chris. We look forward to testing the new firmware updates. Perhaps they meant 40Hz bandwidth correction? Sometimes meaning gets lost in translation via email exchanges and such?

Also feel free to post before and after bass calibration graphs here if you will and when we retest we will see if we can duplicate similar level of success in our setup. Thanks again.

 

[briansmith]

We have identified a problem in the firmware that was mysteriously not engaging the subwoofer filter on some units. The filter was being calculated, but not being engaged.

This has been fixed and the firmware update from Denon should be imminent.

Furthermore, it is NOT true that MultEQ only corrects to 40 Hz. I am not sure why Denon is saying this. The MultEQ filters are designed to correct as much as possible down to 20 Hz.

Finally, in response to a question about frequency sweeps. We do not use a frequency sweep in the traditional sense. The Audyssey test signal plays a custom-designed test signal that quickly covers 20 Hz to 20 kHz. When it plays from the satellites it sounds like a "thwack" and when it plays from the sub it sounds like a "thud".

The ideal sub connection is one in which the 5805 sub-out is connected to a sub input that does not have a low-pass filter. That would interfere with the 5805 bass management, cause additional delay, and also interfere with the MultEQ sub filter. If no such input exists on the sub, then the low pass filter frequency should be turned up as high as possible to minimize such problems. If there is a level control, it should be set to the half-way (12 o'clock) point.

Regards,
Chris

Chris,

Thank you for the update. My subwoofer puts out the "thud" testone you described. I had no idea that this test tone could cover all the way down to 20Hz!

We all look forward to the firmware update!

-Brian

 

[anjali3417]

Denon5805 Review - Page 13 Questions

Hi Mr Gene Della Salla

Excellant thorough review on Denon5805.

It raised some questions related to YOUR REVIEW - Page 13 re POWER OUTPUT in Lab which my hope is you can help answer. The same queries were raised by a much more modest review in Sound & Vision by Daniel Kumin/May 2005 and again by this person re HK Avr7300/Nov 2004.

A. Page 13 - Current Load 25 amps etc.

Your logic re limit of 15 amp wall outlet for normal homes makes 100% sense and matches the laws of physics. One could not serve a load of more than 15amps x 120 v = 1800 watts without blowing the main breaker. Let alone cause an electrical fire inside the house walls. W a 30 amp outlet/breaker the wattage could go to 3600 watts.

As you point out this limits what a receiver can pump ou into an 8 ohm load.

HOWEVER, where does so called 'High Current Capacity' design come in? aka Harman Kardon AVR 7300 and its HCC 75 amps. Is this merely false advertising or is it for real.

B. Page 13 - Power Output at 8 ohms 5/7 channels driven toigether.

I am fully confused by the Lab Specs mentioned in your review AND the same specs mentioned in the Kumin Reviews [May Denon, Nov HK]. Here follows:

The Denon5805 engine rated at 170wpc maxes out at 145wpc at 0.1%thd w ALL 5 channels driven into 8 ohms. At Clipping Kumin lab rates Denon at 121 wpc [20.8 dbw].

Why does the ALL channels driven power output fall at 0.1 and clipping for both your review and Kumin's for Denon 5805.

[C] WHY MY QUERY[/B]

I ask this question BECAUSE - for HK AVR 7300 rated at 110wpc, the reviews by Kumin [same lab as for their modest review of Denon 5805] state:

HK AVR 7300 w ALL 5 channels driven at clipping is 145 wpc [21.8 dbw], and all 7 channels driven at 139wpc [21.4dbw].

At 0.1 thd this would mean that HK AVR 7300 must generate MORE/Higher power output than for the clippling spec above [Kumin and others].

[D]THEREFORE[/B]:

How is it that Denon rated at 170wpc generates LESS all 5/7 channels driven power than the much smaller HK AVR7300 at 110 wpc? This is irrespective at thd levels?

Even at 1 channel 8/4 ohms the Denon was 205/344 wpc V HK 202/343 wpc?

Why did the Denon power drop BELOW 170 wpc marketed spec and the HK RISE above 110wpc spec marketed?

[E]SUMMARY[/B]

Does High Current Capacity design have anything to do w this 'anomaly' as shown by your published results and those [like yours] by Kumin.

Is HCC for real or is it hype by HK and the others who do it?

Gene, thank you for your patience and time in guiding me in the above - I am a simple home owner.

Regards/Anjali3417

 

[gene]

HOWEVER, where does so called 'High Current Capacity' design come in? aka Harman Kardon AVR 7300 and its HCC 75 amps. Is this merely false advertising or is it for real.

Its mostly marketing hype based on a very short term (msec duration) current peak capability, much like the IEC rating for dynamic range you see some amplifiers rated to. However, HCC is a Harman rating whereas the Dynamic Power ratings are actually established from a standard.

The Denon5805 engine rated at 170wpc maxes out at 145wpc at 0.1%thd w ALL 5 channels driven into 8 ohms. At Clipping Kumin lab rates Denon at 121 wpc [20.8 dbw].

Why does the ALL channels driven power output fall at 0.1 and clipping for both your review and Kumin's for Denon 5805.

I can't speak for Mr. Kumin, but his #'s for 121wpc seem low and may indicate an issue with power line sag in his setup. The AVR-5805 has the full capability of delivering all of the current from a 15A circuit. I rate at 0.1% THD, b/c I think a 1% rating is bogus since its clearly audible, potentially damaging to a loudspeaker, and visible on an OScope.

I recommend reading our article on Distortion Audibility.

How is it that Denon rated at 170wpc generates LESS all 5/7 channels driven power than the much smaller HK AVR7300 at 110 wpc? This is irrespective at thd levels?

Even at 1 channel 8/4 ohms the Denon was 205/344 wpc V HK 202/343 wpc?

Why did the Denon power drop BELOW 170 wpc marketed spec and the HK RISE above 110wpc spec marketed?

Again this shouldn't be possible, especially since the Denon has a much larger power supply, more heatsinking and bigger power transistors. When I measured the 5805 with 5CH driven, my line sagged from 124V to under 119V. Thus at this point, I wasn't testing the power capability of the receiver, but instead testing line voltage sag.

Does High Current Capacity design have anything to do w this 'anomaly' as shown by your published results and those [like yours] by Kumin.

No.

Please keep in mind that the "All Channels Driven Test" is NOT AT ALL representative of a real world listening condition. It is the absolute worst test condition on the absolute best test load. By measuring an amplifiers SNR, Distortion (under loading) and output impedance (loaded/unloaded) and knowing the capabilities of the power supply, this gives a much more representative indication on amplifier quality. That being said, the 5805 has the most robust amp section we have yet to see in a receiver, regardless of price, or marketing claims. More importantly, its dead silent when it needs to be and boldy dynamic when called upon.

Recommended Additional Reading:

Product Managing Receiver Platforms

Prior Power Thread Query on the AVR-5805

 

[anjali3417]

Gene - Thank You

Gene,

Thank You for your prompt, patient and detailed reply. Like your review it was thorough.

In fact your 'denon' review should be standard reading for the 'other' reviewers who well intentioned and surely competent, could do a better service for their readers by providing the kind of detailed analyses you did for other expensive pieces of equipment.

Regards/Anjali3417

 

[DVV]

High Current ratings

Some people here will know me as a high current freak. But what Gene says is (unfortunately) quite true. Most of these ratings are given for ridiculously short periods of time. IEC stipulates just 20 msec, and most (but not all) Scandinavian audio manufacturers will quote incredible nubers - until you read the small print, where it says something like "1 msec".

Many, MANY years ago, around 1986 or so, I read a great text in a German magazine (I had it translated) on this matter. The author concluded that anyting below half a second, or 500 msec, was simply meaningless in realistic terms, and even this was of doubtful value.

On the other hand, if an amp can deliver high power levels into very low loads even for a relatively short time, it speaks well of that amp's power supplies and output stages. It will, at least, be better behaved into not so low loads over longer periods of time.

Of course, the question begging for an answer is - what is a low load? A pure simple resistive value, or a comples LRC product? Since it'a ALWAYS a complex LRC product, even the low impedance specs may actually tell just a small part of the story.

What laymen fail to understand is that to deliver tremendous power levels into low impedances, one invariably begins to need ever greater heat sinks, ever more output devices and ever more beefy power supplies. So, when you see a Harman/Kardon product (of which I have several at home, in my, or my wife's or son's systems) with a great HCC rating, take it with a pich of salt.

Their 680 integrated amp, never sold in North America but sold in Europe, is rated at 85/130W into 8/4 ohms as per FTC ratings. It will, for 20 msec, deliver as much as 515 watts into 1 ohm, but very soon after that, its power supply will collapse or its overheat protection will trigger. Before you are too disappointed, this is a phenomenally good result for an integrated amp, with a relatively modest power rating, and working with just 10 dB (3:1) of overall NFB.

But if you want the King Of Lies Who Loves Consumers, buy Denon's PMA-1500R Mk.2. Rated at 70/140W into 8/4 ohms. Locally, it costs like $700. It will pump out as much as 700 watts into 1 ohm for about a second. Or keep pupming 298 watts into 2 ohms for about 3 minutes. That's UHC (Ultra High Current) MOSFET for you.

My Karan Acoustics KA-i180 integrated, rated at 180/250W into 8/4 ohms, will collapse at around 300W/2 ohms. It has problems hittin 320W/4 ohms, and for its US price, around $5k, you might expect it to do better; yet, it actually SOUNDS far better than most in its price class, and certainly way better than the two mentioned above.

Conclusion - high quality sound is NOT directly linked to high current delivery.

Cheers,
DVV

 

[DVV]

Multi channel power delivery

Regarding multichannel power delivery, the initial premise is wrong. You will not be listening to steady-state signals on all channels, not if you want to keep your ears intact. Power should be regarded as what is available if required in loud peaks, nothing else.

What you will actually be hearing depends on your the program material, your player's dynamic capabilities, your loudspeaker efficiency and your room acoutics. In many cases, also you neighbors' threshold of tolerance, assuming your wife had already gone mad.

Assuming you have typical new generation speakers, your efficiency leve should be 90-92 dB/2.83V/1m. Let's be pessimistic, say 90 dB. At 100W/8 ohms, your amp is delivering 28.3V RMS to the load, od 20 dBW. Hence, your SPL is (90+20) 110 dB at 1 m, or 104 dB at 3 m. The room is likely to suck up another 3-4 dB, leaving you with 100 dB SPL. But, since you have 5 channels working in parallel, plus a subwoofer (probably self-powered), you will actually be hearing something like 105-108 dB SPL in peaks.

This is quite enough to rattle the window panes - ANY window pane.

Do you really want/need more? Do you really hate your neighbors that much? Are you sure the cops will be that understanding?

Cheers,
DVV

 

[Cygnus]

Bahhh That denon doesnt have enough inputs! (just kidding! It has to many!) Mabye I'll buy it in a couple of years when it comes down in price!

 

[Audioholics]

In order to keep this thread on track we have moved some of the latter discussion to a new thread where you may continue at will... Please keep this thread focused on AVR-5805 issues, questions, and discussion only.

 

[Cygnus]

It seems that the knobs for the volume and input selector are made of a different material then the ones on my AVR-1705. The knobs on the 5805 (at least, in the pictures) are shinier.