Not convinced that a sub 20hz extension is necessary.

[yepimonfire]

A couple days ago, i had the opportunity to compare my sub 1500 side by side with a sealed rythmik that had an extension to 14 hz. Using aine waves, both 16hz and 14hz werw audible at high enough spl, however, when demoing heavy bass scenes in movies, switching between the 1500 and the rythmik seemed to offer no benefits.

Both subwoofers were level matched usinf an spl meter. The sub1500 has a 23hz -3dB extension and is -6dB at 19hz. Both sound wise and tactile response wise, they were pretty much the same.

Obviously, its nice to have a sub that can extend to 16hz if you're a fan of something like pipe organs, but i really just don't see the neex to spend extra to get below 20hz.

Even a response to 30hz was fairly similar, listening without a sub on the JBL 580s.

Modern cinema subs generally fall in the range of 25-31hz, so why do we need to go lower for movies?

Anyone else had the chance to compare and feel the same?

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[shadyJ]

No extension is necessary, it is just wanted. Why would you need speakers that can dig lower than 200 Hz? You can understand dialogue just fine without it.

Another thing, you need serious SPL for sub 20Hz content to be palpable. It doesn't matter if you were playing 14 Hz tones if they were only at 90 dB. You also have to be sure that you weren't hearing harmonics. On most subs, harmonics will totally swamp out the fundamental in this regions. Only the big subs from Rythmik would even stand a chance of doing any justice to that frequency range. You would need an RTA to be sure you were hearing real 20 Hz content and not the harmonics.

I don't think sub 20 Hz ability is crucial to enjoying music or movies, but it does help to enhance the experience on some movies. Overall it is better to have the ability than not.

 

[NINaudio]

Do you know if the movies you were checking out even had content in that range?

Edit: To me it was a huge difference in movies and music once I switched to a sub that could play content below 30 Hz. My old sub basically fell off a cliff once you got to 31 Hz

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Do you know if the movies you were checking out even had content in that range?

Edit: To me it was a huge difference in movies and music once I switched to a sub that could play content below 30 Hz. My old sub basically fell off a cliff once you got to 31 Hz

This was my first question too.
There are a lot of movies with content below 20hz, but it seems like just as many are out there with a 30hz filter on them. Unacceptable. In the case of the latter, obviously 20hz performance wouldn’t matter much. However, on something like hacksaw ridge, I can’t imagine a mid 20’s hz sub. It would be lame! Sine waves are fun but IMO, as I’ve said before solid 20hz(and as low as you can spend) movie performance should not be so easily dismissed. Sure you could probably be happy with mid 20’s for a long time, but why? Ignore is bliss they say. I agree with shady too, about the delivery method. A small sealed 12 can reach that low, but not with the same impact, and ease of a more capable 15.(just like i doubt the RP’s have much impact at 32 like you claim, even if they can reach that low) I had an sb2k that I could measure down to about 17hz in my room but it had almost zero impact in my concrete floored room that low. The 2 pc’s in my room measure solid to about 15 and it’s a world of difference. Although I see you’ve put in the time to see what ULF can do for you, it seems like you’re justifying not spending the money on it. That’s fine, but I think you’re missing out.

I would verify with certainty that your movies had content at or below 20hz. Data-bass, and avs( I’m sure you know) have plenty of posts and links showing content.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

"Necessary" is a strong word; "Desirable" might be a better choice. After all, even having a subwoofer isn't necessary, but it can be desirable.

It's one of those things ... a lot of the "hair on the back of your neck" moments in music are, if not random, at least intermittent, and not that common. But when they are there, it's exhilarating. I like a system that can reveal those moments, regardless of how uncommon they may be (or at what frequencies, level, etc).

Generally most people into HiFi choose components for their potential rather than their limits. I don't know if that's a particularly good answer to the question, but it's the way it is.

For what it's worth, I do like to play a good pipe organ recording from time to time, and the only time I have attended church in the last 40 years or so, is to hear the installation's pipe organ, and I try to do so at least a few times a year (we have four good organs in my city, pop 220,000, three are Cassavants. Touring organists put on concert works at all four a couple of times a year). One of the cool things about pipe organs is they are all unique, built to the venue, and custom-manufactured with different features and capabilities. Essentially, no two are alike or sound the same.

I also like to visit a church with a good pipe organ when I visit other cities. On my bucket list ... the four story, 6,489 pipe Cassavant at the Symphony Hall of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

"Necessary" is a strong word; "Desirable" might be a better choice. After all, even having a subwoofer isn't necessary, but it can be desirable.

It's one of those things ... a lot of the "hair on the back of your neck" moments in music are, if not random, at least intermittent, and not that common. But when they are there, it's exhilarating. I like a system that can reveal those moments, regardless of how uncommon they may be (or at what frequencies, level, etc).

Generally most people into HiFi choose components for their potential rather than their limits. I don't know if that's a particularly good answer to the question, but it's the way it is.

Yes, this!

 

[j_garcia]

To each their own. I feel it is necessary.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Well, with the reverse low freq sweep in Lord of the Rings, I can hear a difference between a 20 Hz sub and one that hits 18 Hz. The former can’t quite get all the way to the “bottom.”

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Montucky]

Try out the opening to Edge of Tomorrow. I believe the LFE track on that one is programmed for around 10 Hz at 120dB (Reference). I had my system somewhere around -10 on a Yamaha MX-A5000 (running full blown 7.2.4) with dual SVS PC-13+ Ultras and SVS Ultra towers/books/surrounds and I dang near soiled myself when that thing hit. I was NOT prepared for that one. I was praising the Lord that I did not blow my subs. They handled it like a total champ, but I make sure to turn it way down at the beginning now. Haha.

If you're not convinced about sub-20Hz waves, then try that one out and see what you think.

I also LOVE demoing Pacific Rim at near reference levels. You will feel that one to your core. So immersive with the LFE in there. Another great one is San Andreas (in Atmos of course!). My downstairs neighbors (a catering business in a commercial building) told me they swore we were undergoing an earthquake. We're in a high seismic zone, so it made sense. They laughed when I told them what I was testing and they came up to check it out. So much fun.

So are subs capable of digging super deep "necessary?" Perhaps not in the most literal sense, but it is every bit as helpful as surround sound in regard to helping you totally immerse yourself into a film.

 

[yepimonfire]

@William Lemmerhirt

I'd agree with you about driver size and impact. Two subs can have the same frequency response and even be able to hit the same spl with low distortion, but for whatever reason, the bigger driver seems to pressurize the room more completely.

As for the RP 160m, they do an excellent job with mid bass, this is the thd at 100dB at 40 hz measured 3m away.

@Johnny2Bad
I'd disagree that a sub isn't necessary. Unless you've got towers with dual 10-15" drivers with a minimum f3 of 30hz...

Even then, if we are talking about real reference level output of 115dB, I'd be surprised if you were able to find a tower capable of that. Even most subs struggle to do that.

My point is that when comparing between a sub that stops at the mid 20s and one that goes below 20hz, I hear little benefit from the sub with the deeper extension.

Even on the opening scene from edge of tomorrow, the sub 1500 still shook my house with enough force to make the frame of the chair I was sitting in vibrate.

While I can't remember all the stuff I demoed, I know one scene from black hawk down, f****** Irene, with the sub 1500 and then the rhythmik, I really didn't feel the extra extension on the rhythmik made a big enough difference that I could justify spending over $1200 more for it. For me, I'd rather focus on achieving true reference level spl at 25-30hz than chasing extra extension that may add a small benefit. After all, an LFE heavy scene at 115dB is an experience you won't forget lol.

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[shadyJ]

@William Lemmerhirt

I'd agree with you about driver size and impact. Two subs can have the same frequency response and even be able to hit the same spl with low distortion, but for whatever reason, the bigger driver seems to pressurize the room more completely.

I think that this idea would fail in a blind test. Pressure waves do not care about the cone diameter that they were produced by, and consequently your ears would not sense a difference.

As for the difference with the Rythmik sub, what Rythmik sub were you using? One note I would make is that scenes like the Blackhawk Down and Edge of Tomorrow actually reserve a lot of power down to absurdly low frequencies, even below the tuning points of Rythmik's subs. I think a much better case can be made for content which spreads a lot of energy over the deep bass spectrum. For this reason I think that the "pods rising" scene from War of the Worlds continues to be the best scene for demoing deep bass ability of a sub. A significant difference can be felt simply from adjusting any of my variable tuned subs from a 16 Hz tuning to a 25 Hz tuning in mid scene. Probably not much difference would be felt doing that in the Blackhawk down or Edge of Tomorrow opener. Another good one is demoing subs is the wormhole scene in Interstellar. BlackHawk Down and Edge of Tomorrow's opening 10 Hz square wave are not very good subwoofer candy, unless you have a massive sealed sub system or something extremely deeply ported like the JTR Captivator 4000 ULF.

 

[yepimonfire]

I think that this idea would fail in a blind test. Pressure waves do not care about the cone diameter that they were produced by, and consequently your ears would not sense a difference.

As for the difference with the Rythmik sub, what Rythmik sub were you using? One note I would make is that scenes like the Blackhawk Down and Edge of Tomorrow actually reserve a lot of power down to absurdly low frequencies, even below the tuning points of Rythmik's subs. I think a much better case can be made for content which spreads a lot of energy over the deep bass spectrum. For this reason I think that the "pods rising" scene from War of the Worlds continues to be the best scene for demoing deep bass ability of a sub. A significant difference can be felt simply from adjusting any of my variable tuned subs from a 16 Hz tuning to a 25 Hz tuning in mid scene. Probably not much difference would be felt doing that in the Blackhawk down or Edge of Tomorrow opener. Another good one is demoing subs is the wormhole scene in Interstellar. BlackHawk Down and Edge of Tomorrow's opening 10 Hz square wave are not very good subwoofer candy, unless you have a massive sealed sub system or something extremely deeply ported like the JTR Captivator 4000 ULF.

It might have something with bigger subs having better dynamic range.

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[highfigh]

A couple days ago, i had the opportunity to compare my sub 1500 side by side with a sealed rythmik that had an extension to 14 hz. Using aine waves, both 16hz and 14hz werw audible at high enough spl, however, when demoing heavy bass scenes in movies, switching between the 1500 and the rythmik seemed to offer no benefits.

Both subwoofers were level matched usinf an spl meter. The sub1500 has a 23hz -3dB extension and is -6dB at 19hz. Both sound wise and tactile response wise, they were pretty much the same.

Obviously, its nice to have a sub that can extend to 16hz if you're a fan of something like pipe organs, but i really just don't see the neex to spend extra to get below 20hz.

Even a response to 30hz was fairly similar, listening without a sub on the JBL 580s.

Modern cinema subs generally fall in the range of 25-31hz, so why do we need to go lower for movies?

Anyone else had the chance to compare and feel the same?

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

Why would it be needed for movies? Earthquakes, explosions and sound occurring in outer space. Special effects is about the only use, other than the occasional pipe organ note or huge drum. I think those may be the only two acoustic instruments that can produce such low frequencies and honestly, will be lost in most rooms unless the energy is transmitted through conduction or resonance in an object that's near you and can conduct to the listeners.

However, if the speakers can produce response evenly to that range, anything in the audible range will have enough energy to make the sound more realistic. I had a pair of woofers and the spec sheet showed that in the larger cabinet design, the F3 was 17.5Hz. Mine were in cabinets that are called 'corner horn' and they were amazing, but I had to sell them because they wouldn't fit through the doors of the house I bought.

 

[sholling]

I'll take sub 20hz extension even those it's rare that you'll run into anything that uses it. The sub in my family room will play to 16hz and while movies rarely hit those lows it does happen. My bedroom sub will hit 14hz and Hsu's demo disc has a bit of organ music that you feel as much as hear. It all just depends on your taste in music and movies.

 

[Montucky]

Mine were in cabinets that are called 'corner horn' and they were amazing, but I had to sell them because they wouldn't fit through the doors of the house I bought.

Woh! Wouldn't fit through the doors?! Those must have been some insane speakers!!! I'm such a huge sucker for gigantic loudspeakers. Total opposite of most people these days who want their systems totally concealed.

If I were in your shoes, I would've told my wife "Honey, I think it's time we replace our doorways with wheelchair accessible ones. You know, just in case. What with me getting older and all." (I'm not quite 40 yet) I'd MAKE those speakers fit. Haha.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yep, I don’t think your test was really fair. I haven’t looked at output numbers for the small rythmik but IME comparing a small sealed sub with a large ported one is hardly apples to apples. It’s like test driving a Prius and stating, huh, I don’t see the value in a Ferrari, without having driven the Ferrari. Obviously you’re willing to do the homework, so I really think if you could retest with a more capable subwoofer you’d change your thinking. Obviously that’s easier said than done though.

 

[BMXTRIX]

The first time you feel the room moving around you, despite not hearing a note being played, you know you have a great subwoofer and are just amazed by what is possible.

I went from a cheap Def Tech sub to a Velodyne HGS-10, then a HGS-18. The extension of that speaker is unreal and the ability to shake my foundation is pretty scary.

 

[highfigh]

Woh! Wouldn't fit through the doors?! Those must have been some insane speakers!!! I'm such a huge sucker for gigantic loudspeakers. Total opposite of most people these days who want their systems totally concealed.

If I were in your shoes, I would've told my wife "Honey, I think it's time we replace our doorways with wheelchair accessible ones. You know, just in case. What with me getting older and all." (I'm not quite 40 yet) I'd MAKE those speakers fit. Haha.

I guess I forgot to mention the model- EV-30W. You know the part of Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' with the helicopters? That could be felt outside of the house, standing on the sidewalk.

Here's what someone else did with them-

http://www.dougronald.com/images/PB010017.JPG

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you're buying a new subwoofer, might as well buy one that can play 20Hz.

It's like if I'm buying a truck, might as well buy one with 4x4, not 2 wheel drive.

C'mon.

 

[panteragstk]

If you're buying a new subwoofer, might as well buy one that can play 20Hz.

It's like if I'm buying a truck, might as well buy one with 4x4, not 2 wheel drive.

C'mon.

Better to have and not need than to need and not have.