New PSA Subs

[billy p]

Dear BSA you must be reading along over at AVS...what...with all the made in America controversy and FTC regulations. You just had to go there...lol....wow!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dear BSA you must be reading along over at AVS...what...with all the made in America controversy and FTC regulations. You just had to go there...lol....wow!

I actually didn't read AVS, but I heard similar arguments before.
I'm a US citizen and as much of patriot as the next guy, but to be fair (for example) no one ever called american built cars to be most reliable car compared to other countries. Most exciting or most innovative (or cheapest) - there were certain very reliable cars made in one time or another , but as a whole unfortunately factory reliability has never been strong suit.

and btw: Thanks ShadyJ - someone who knows thing or two about testing subs.

 

[ATLAudio]

3db bump is certainly noticeable, but hardly critical. Vented subs also benefit from room gain, while sealed designs need it much more.
In my case - the living room is open to whole house and I would get room gain of exactly nil.


Please don't put words in to my mouth.
No one, not even me calling PSA subs rip offs, just different in perceived value - and in my option it's a bit less than Hsu at the moment. Early on PSA subs were indeed amazing value, but for various reasons (and that's manufacturer right to do so) - the prices went up considerably. If PSA doesn't want race to the bottom and serve only higher end customer (ala Funk/Seaton) - totally legitimate option for them.

As for comparing vented and sealed subs - I do disagree with you - both subs can produce linear bass output without must distortion - it's apples to a slightly different apples (not oranges) - end result of both designs is same, they just get there differently - so yeah - I feel like such comparison are legitimate.

We could argue back and forward, but we both going to stick to our own opinions. This is my last post on this subject matter and if you feel you need to rebuff - you're welcome to do so. It's free country and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, including me - I do admit that I don't know everything, but common sense has rarely let me down before.

As for PSA's honesty:
Image below stretching facts a bit - VTF is 1.0 DB higher in crucial 31-50hz range.
Then it's loosing only 0.6DB to V1500 in much less critical 63-100hz range, yet PSA decides that it would take 1.1 VTFs to compare to V1500... I only wonder how they got to this conclusion. Same goes for in room extension - Who's room? The tiny 4x6 ft of tiny New York apartment or more typical open concept room in (lets say) 6000 sqft home in Texas. Without knowing room size - this spec is meaningless.

Lets price V1500 $100 below VTF-15H MK2 and I will start salivating myself, but $40 more? What for?
Country of Origin USA - I mean do we have a concrete proof that 100% of V1500 is indeed built in US of A? Down to every single resistor in amp circuit? What makes it "USA origin" ?
It's never that simple. All Apple hardware is made in China, yet I don't know anyone who might not consider they as premium product.

“3db bump is certainly noticeable, but hardly critical.”


Since both subs are still quite capable, it depends on your definition of critical, but you are paying for double to quadruple the SPL, so you ARE getting more performance contrary to your original opinion.


“Vented subs also benefit from room gain, while sealed designs need it much more.”


Nonsense. I never said a vented design didn’t gain. Sealed subs, due to their gentle roll off, can take more advantage of room gain. Having a room too large to take advantage of room gain usually yields to needing a vented design. I discussed this.


“In my case - the living room is open to whole house and I would get room gain of exactly nil.”


In your case a vented option is best, which helps prove my point. Thanks!


“Please don't put words in to my mouth. No one, not even me calling PSA subs rip offs, just different in perceived value - and in my option it's a bit less than Hsu at the moment.”


That’s the best definition of what I’d call a ripoff, but to each is own. Your orginnal language went far beyond ‘a bit less.’ Also, you’re still making your claim of being a lesser value IN SPITE of clear evidence of greater performance. You also made this claim more broadly and definitively as you are now.


“Early on PSA subs were indeed amazing value, but for various reasons (and that's manufacturer right to do so) - the prices went up considerably. If PSA doesn't want race to the bottom and serve only higher end customer (ala Funk/Seaton) - totally legitimate option for them.”


Obviously they don’t serve as lower dollar consumer as HSU, but I don’t see how this serves your original point. Are you now trying to pivot to suggest a different argument?


“As for comparing vented and sealed subs - I do disagree with you both subs can produce linear bass output without must distortion it's apples to a slightly different apples (not oranges)”


What on earth does this even mean? CEA 2010 is a measurement of distortion, that’s the data I’m trying to present.


“end result of both designs is same, they just get there differently so yeah - I feel like such comparison are legitimate.”


There is a litany of information comparing the pros and cons of a sealed and vented design, which you yourself admits. The consensus opinion is that it greatly depends on your room, equipment and listening goals. That being the case we shouldn’t compare vented and sealed subs as they would likely not be offered to similar customers.


“We could argue back and forward, but we both going to stick to our own opinions.”


I’ve backed up my opinions with facts and data, you’re still pivoting and backtracking from a terrible statement and instead of just saying you misspoke you dig in deeper.


“This is my last post on this subject matter and if you feel you need to rebuff - you're welcome to do so. It's free country and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, including me - I do admit that I don't know everything, but common sense has rarely let me down before.”


Thanks for your permission. I’m sure someone who makes up meaningless talking points would also feel so bold as to ‘allow’ someone to post on a public board. Common sense doesn’t make a good sub, nor does it provide credible data.


“As for PSA's honesty:”


Since you couldn’t prove that PSA was ripping folks off, you’re taking a shot at their honesty, ok then…


“Image below stretching facts a bit - VTF is 1.0 DB higher in crucial 31-50hz range. Then it's loosing only 0.6DB to V1500 in much less critical 63-100hz range, yet PSA decides that it would take 1.1 VTFs to compare to V1500. I only wonder how they got to this conclusion.”


That’s because you can’t average a set averages. Time to go back to math class? In any case, I just went to the HSU site and compared using measurements of one port open and the measurements on the PSA site were BETTER for the HSU sub. So apparently PSA is giving HSU more credit then they are giving themselves. Based off an average of all CEA measurements they state the 1.1 as an average dB for all dB point in the CEA measurements comparing both subs.


“Same goes for in room extension – Who's room? The tiny 4x6 ft of tiny New York apartment or more typical open concept room in (lets say) 6000 sqft home in Texas. Without knowing room size - this spec is meaningless.”


Nice strawman argument. These are CEA 2010 measurements in open space, flat plane, at 1m. Room gain is not implied. Since they will be in a room, it’s fair to state that some amount of room extension will apply. Room extension is a concept used by everyone in the industry not just PSA. If you wanted to be precise I’d suggest measuring your room. Tom at PSA would be more than happy to help you out, as would everyone at an ID sub dealer. However for the purposes of a website an average has to be assumed.


That said, it’s obvious that you’re now trying to compare the two subs that SHOULD have been compared all along. You’re so desperate to see the HSU sub as superior and you can’t come up with anything other than your typical poor information, and baseless accusations. Get a grip man, it’s ok for there to be other good sub makers, both subs are good, and likely so close as to not be a serious factor. The differences are tertiary at best, but like I said, your original statement comparing the 3000/3000i, which you stated rather broadly and definitively is laughably absurd.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It's like talking to wall here. I'm giving up. Yes ATLAudio you are right and obviously subject expert. I know - you should build your own subs.

 

[ATLAudio]

I would agree that the VTF15h mk2 is more properly compared to the V1500, however there are plenty of points about which you are mistaken.


There is no reason why you can't compare a sealed design to a ported design. After all, Power Sound Audio does it. As for sealed designs taking advantage of room gain down to single digit frequencies, well yes and no. You need a huge amount of output at that level for any sensible bass at all, and that mean more than one S3000 sub. A single 15" sub isn't going to make much of an impact in deep bass. You will need a lot more air displacement. Even with a lot of room gain, a sealed sub will be lucky to match a ported sub for significant deep bass, and even then ported subs can benefit from room gain as well. Sealed doesn't have that much advantage here unless you have a lot of them.

Furthermore, 3 dB more headroom is not double the SPL in the sense anyone in the industry would talk about. It could be considered double the power intensity, but in audio when people talk about doubling SPL they mean amplitude. A 3 dB gain would be considered a 50% increase in amplitude. A 7 dB gain is certainly not widely regarded as four times the SPL.

A for a S3000i being a better deal than a S3000, from the available CEA measurements and looking at the specs, it really doesn't look like it. In your concern is linearity, the S3000i pretty much only gains you upper bass, so basically what you are buying is more compression. I am betting one reason for that is because the sub becomes driver limited at that point, and the sub gets driven well past any reasonable distortion threshold. These drivers can only take the extra power for upper bass output. With the S3000i, you would probably gain more distortion than clean, linear bass. Not that any of that matters to PSA or its customers, who seem to be only interested in an SPL drag race.



A sealed sub is more subject to audible distortion in deep bass than a properly designed vented sub. A good vented sub will roll off very fast below its tuning point, and so whatever proportion of the sound is distortion, it will not be as offensive because the overall output at that point would be very low anyway. A sealed sub with a normal 12 dB/ octave slope, on the other hand, can be generating significant output well below its Fs, and in doing so runs into a lot more distortion relatively speaking. This can be seen in any of Ilkkas and Josh's measurements.


I don't know about the mk2s, but the impulse delay looks very good for the VTF15h mk1 in any of its operating modes, perhaps as a consequence of its relatively low Q driver. It is comparable to many of the higher-end sealed subs on data-bass.com.

“I would agree that the VTF15h mk2 is more properly compared to the V1500, however there are plenty of points about which you are mistaken. There is no reason why you can't compare a sealed design to a ported design. After all, Power Sound Audio does it.”


Well that’s my main point. I don’t care who compares sealed and ported, I simply don’t believe it’s a proper comparison. Also with the data at hand, the 3000/3000i are certain worth their salt as sealed designs at that price point.


“As for sealed designs taking advantage of room gain down to single digit frequencies, well yes and no. You need a huge amount of output at that level for any sensible bass at all, and that mean more than one S3000 sub. A single 15" sub isn't going to make much of an impact in deep bass. You will need a lot more air displacement. Even with a lot of room gain, a sealed sub will be lucky to match a ported sub for significant deep bass, and even then ported subs can benefit from room gain as well.”


I can’t remember but I think we were discussion the 3000i at the time, which could brush up some single digits. The S3000 is two 15” woofers, not a single. However, more to your point, this is low volume stuff. My main point was how much more material is being produced by the sealed sub when the vented sub has cut off.


“Sealed doesn't have that much advantage here unless you have a lot of them.”


Disagree.


“Furthermore, 3 dB more headroom is not double the SPL in the sense anyone in the industry would talk about. It could be considered double the power intensity, but in audio when people talk about doubling SPL they mean amplitude. A 3 dB gain would be considered a 50% increase in amplitude. A 7 dB gain is certainly not widely regarded as four times the SPL.”


http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm


In any case, this doesn’t change the absurd notion that the 3000/3000i have no real performance gain. They do.


“A for a S3000i being a better deal than a S3000, from the available CEA measurements and looking at the specs, it really doesn't look like it. In your concern is linearity, the S3000i pretty much only gains you upper bass, so basically what you are buying is more compression. I am betting one reason for that is because the sub becomes driver limited at that point, and the sub gets driven well past any reasonable distortion threshold. These drivers can only take the extra power for upper bass output. With the S3000i, you would probably gain more distortion than clean, linear bass. Not that any of that matters to PSA or its customers, who seem to be only interested in an SPL drag race.”


Wow… Nice rub on PSA customers. I am sure some independent measurements will come up and we can revisit. You make some good points. I’m not in the market for either sub however. But, I have wondered which one I’d choose.


“A sealed sub is more subject to audible distortion in deep bass than a properly designed vented sub. A good vented sub will roll off very fast below its tuning point, and so whatever proportion of the sound is distortion, it will not be as offensive because the overall output at that point would be very low anyway. A sealed sub with a normal 12 dB/ octave slope, on the other hand, can be generating significant output well below its Fs, and in doing so runs into a lot more distortion relatively speaking. This can be seen in any of Ilkkas and Josh's measurements.”


And with typical room gain you’ll likely not have a problem either way. You’re right about a vented sub, I chose the wrong words there.


“I don't know about the mk2s, but the impulse delay looks very good for the VTF15h mk1 in any of its operating modes, perhaps as a consequence of its relatively low Q driver. It is comparable to many of the higher-end sealed subs on databass.com.”


Also, good catch. That said, if I wanted a sealed design, I’d still rather go in the direction of a sealed sub for the reasons I said.

 

[ATLAudio]

It's like talking to wall here. I'm giving up. Yes ATLAudio you are right and obviously subject expert. I know - you should build your own subs.

Oh wait, I thought you were done... Thanks for telling everyone twice that you have nothing else to say. Nice snide remarks. Shows your inability to even try and find common ground. I did that by trying to shift debate to the two subs that should be compared, and you made up more nonsense.

 

[shadyJ]

You still aren't discussing SPLs properly if you think 3 dB is a doubling. When people talk about SPLs, they will mean amplitude. Here is a chart from your link you should to take a closer look at:

Keep in mind that voltage here means amplitude!

Since you couldn’t prove that PSA was ripping folks off, you’re taking a shot at their honesty, ok then…

He never said PSA was ripping anyone off. If you want to be defensive about PSA, I could offer a few biting comments! However let's keep this discussion on a technical footing.

“Image below stretching facts a bit - VTF is 1.0 DB higher in crucial 31-50hz range. Then it's loosing only 0.6DB to V1500 in much less critical 63-100hz range, yet PSA decides that it would take 1.1 VTFs to compare to V1500. I only wonder how they got to this conclusion.”


That’s because you can’t average a set averages. Time to go back to math class? In any case, I just went to the HSU site and compared using measurements of one port open and the measurements on the PSA site were BETTER for the HSU sub. So apparently PSA is giving HSU more credit then they are giving themselves. Based off an average of all CEA measurements they state the 1.1 as an average dB for all dB point in the CEA measurements comparing both subs.

What you are missing is, in CEA protocol, averages are derived from taking the individual measurements, converting them to pascals, doing the averages in Pa, and then converting those averages to dB. This gives you a higher number than doing simple averages with decibels, so no, PSA is not giving Hsu more credit. But PSA is speculating a bit in these scores since there is no public CEA measurement number for a 100 Hz frequency from Hsu. There is also a larger layer of speculation by PSA since these number can fluctuate by quite a bit more than a tenth of a dB by different testers, which entirely invalidates the method by which PSA is comparing these subs. It is an abuse of the CEA measurement protocol.

These are CEA 2010 measurements in open space, flat plane, at 1m.

Some testing has been done at 1m, some at 2m, and some at 3m. The latest revision, CEA-2010b released last November, wants testing to be conducted at 3m. [/QUOTE]

 

[ATLAudio]

You still aren't discussing SPLs properly if you think 3 dB is a doubling. When people talk about SPLs, they will mean amplitude. Here is a chart from your link you should to take a closer look at:

Keep in mind that voltage here means amplitude!



He never said PSA was ripping anyone off. If you want to be defensive about PSA, I could offer a few biting comments! However let's keep this discussion on a technical footing.



What you are missing is, in CEA protocol, averages are derived from taking the individual measurements, converting them to pascals, doing the averages in Pa, and then converting those averages to dB. This gives you a higher number than doing simple averages with decibels, so no, PSA is not giving Hsu more credit. But PSA is speculating a bit in these scores since there is no public CEA measurement number for a 100 Hz frequency from Hsu. There is also a larger layer of speculation by PSA since these number can fluctuate by quite a bit more than a tenth of a dB by different testers, which entirely invalidates the method by which PSA is comparing these subs. It is an abuse of the CEA measurement protocol.


Some testing has been done at 1m, some at 2m, and some at 3m. The latest revision, CEA-2010b released last November, wants testing to be conducted at 3m.

[/QUOTE]

“You still aren't discussing SPLs properly if you think 3 dB is a doubling. When people talk about SPLs, they will mean amplitude. Here is a chart from your link you should to take a closer look at:”



I didn’t double down on my statement (no pun intended). Lets agree to disagree on what doubles SPL. There is a clear and definitive performance difference, which is revealed in the data for the 3000/3000i. That’s my point.


“He never said PSA was ripping anyone off. If you want to be defensive about PSA, I could offer a few biting comments! However let's keep this discussion on a technical footing.”


Right, his words as stated seemed to suggest that there was basically no value (thus rip off) to the premium priced sub. I showed how this wasn’t the case. Then he lost it. I’d defend HSU if similar claims were made about their products. I’m not a fanboy, I like both sub makers and have suggested HSU subs more times than I can remember.



“What you are missing is, in CEA protocol, averages are derived from taking the individual measurements, converting them to pascals, doing the averages in Pa, and then converting those averages to dB. This gives you a higher number than doing simple averages with decibels, so no, PSA is not giving Hsu more credit. But PSA is speculating a bit in these scores since there is no public CEA measurement number for a 100 Hz frequency from Hsu.”


What about all the other frequencies below that? Also if you ask the OP, frequencies at 100 hz are irrelevant. Anyways, I was comparing the stats on HSU’s page vs the ones on PSA. I’m not sure what your point is with pascals and dB conversions other than to throw your sub knowledge D on the table. lol Kidding, it’s not important. Here’s the deal, it’s obvious that the V1500 and VTF 15 mk 2 are closer than pages in a book in regards to performance. I still don’t know how this is dishonest as the OP claims. It’s marketing. I’m sure I can find a crap ton on the HSU site too. How about how they talk about a VTF design as something magical? For me it’s irrelevant. They are both good subs.


“There is also a larger layer of speculation by PSA since these numbers can fluctuate by quite a bit more than a tenth of a dB by different testers, which entirely invalidates the method by which PSA is comparing these subs. It is an abuse of the CEA measurement protocol.”


I think that when someone claims that a sub is 1.1 times better than the competition, it’s likely a very slight performance advantage, if any. In any case, I doubt you’d find much of a performance difference between the two subs. If that descriptor said that it was 2, or 3 times better, then I’d give it more consideration. Again, it’s marketing.


“Some testing has been done at 1m, some at 2m, and some at 3m. The latest revision, CEA-2010b released last November, wants testing to be conducted at 3m.”


Right, I know that. I was simply stating that this was 1m. I do agree it should be 3m. Shouldn’t we call that new version CEA-2014? lol

 

[shadyJ]

I think that when someone claims that a sub is 1.1 times better than the competition, it’s likely a very slight performance advantage, if any. In any case, I doubt you’d find much of a performance difference between the two subs. If that descriptor said that it was 2, or 3 times better, then I’d give it more consideration. Again, it’s marketing.[/QUOTE]

It's not just marketing, its misleading marketing. These CEA scores can not be made to properly compare to this degree, and the testers from whom PSA is drawing their data even say so. What is more, even if we were to take this data seriously (which we shouldn't) the Hsu sub turns out to be a higher performer on the whole, which is contrary to the picture PSA is trying to paint with their 'output factor'. The Hsu retains superior output when linearity is factored. The V1500 has disproportionately more upper bass (126 dB) than 31-50 Hz bass (124 dB) as opposed to the Hsu sub which holds at 125 dB for that whole range.

Now a matter of a single decibel isn't a big deal all things considered, but when PSA is trying to say their sub is better by 10% over a single decibel, when by their own chart their sub actually under-performs by a decibel, that is not just ridiculous and petty, it is deceptive.

 

[ATLAudio]

I think that when someone claims that a sub is 1.1 times better than the competition, it’s likely a very slight performance advantage, if any. In any case, I doubt you’d find much of a performance difference between the two subs. If that descriptor said that it was 2, or 3 times better, then I’d give it more consideration. Again, it’s marketing.

It's not just marketing, its misleading marketing. These CEA scores can not be made to properly compare to this degree, and the testers from whom PSA is drawing their data even say so. What is more, even if we were to take this data seriously (which we shouldn't) the Hsu sub turns out to be a higher performer on the whole, which is contrary to the picture PSA is trying to paint with their 'output factor'. The Hsu retains superior output when linearity is factored. The V1500 has disproportionately more upper bass (126 dB) than 31-50 Hz bass (124 dB) as opposed to the Hsu sub which holds at 125 dB for that whole range.

Now a matter of a single decibel isn't a big deal all things considered, but when PSA is trying to say their sub is better by 10% over a single decibel, when by their own chart their sub actually under-performs by a decibel, that is not just ridiculous and petty, it is deceptive.[/QUOTE]

You are over analyzing on a lot of points.

"The Hsu retains superior output when linearity is factored. The V1500 has disproportionately more upper bass (126 dB) than 31-50 Hz bass (124 dB) as opposed to the Hsu sub which holds at 125 dB for that whole range."

This is a ridiculous argument. It doesn't suggest superiority. More headroom is always a good thing. Room response always throws linearity out the window unless it's really bad unlinear response, which it isn't.

These are both great subs, I'm sure you can't go wrong either way. Don't try and convince me that a 2 dB of linearity in CEA2010 change suggest superiority. Thats a laugh...

Feel free to fanboy up some more cooked up nonsense for HSU. They should be paying you.

ShadyJ, you're right about a lot of things, but your HSU fanboyish behavior makes reading your posts difficult. The PSA charts are marketing spin, I get it, but you should dial it back a bit.

In any case, I'm done here, and unlike the BSA guy. I mean it.

 

[shadyJ]

This is a ridiculous argument. It doesn't suggest superiority. More headroom is always a good thing. Room response always throws linearity out the window unless it's really bad unlinear response, which it isn't.

These are both great subs, I'm sure you can't go wrong either way. Don't try and convince me that a 2 dB of linearity in CEA2010 change suggest superiority. Thats a laugh...

You should take issue with PSA's charts themselves, not me. I would say wait until both subs have been measured by an impartial tester. PSA says one decibel of upper bass headroom means their sub is 10% better. But if you went by the chart, the Hsu sub holds a flatter response at a higher output level, which would be regarded by most as a higher bar of performance. In this case PSA has been hoisted by their own petard. It would only fool those who don't really look at the numbers- but in reality, the numbers in that chart don't mean much in the first place because it is a improper comparison.

 

[Alex2507]

Gawd, I love it when the fanboys duke it out.

DJ

I don't have time to really read this but I can tell you for free, now that BillyP is involved, it's gonna get catty.

 

[Steve81]

Come on guys, lets try to keep this civil. PSA and Hsu are both offering exceptional products for the money these days. If someone considers one to be a better value than the other, that's OK. I'd personally be just as happy to own any of them.

On another note re: linearity / headroom:

Since LFE tracks are at 80hz, and the THX recommended crossover is 80hz, you’ll still be getting material rolling off from 80-100 hz in your sub. You’ll enjoy about 4 times the SPL head room with the S3000 in this area.

I prefer to view this another way: realistically, you're not likely to need 136dB of output at 63-100Hz, but such output capability is indicative of the S3000i's efficiency through this range. In other words, while the sub may never be asked to deliver full power at 63-100Hz, what content it does get up in that range is simply shrugged off, leaving more resources for deep bass.

 

[billy p]

I actually didn't read AVS, but I heard similar arguments before.
I'm a US citizen and as much of patriot as the next guy, but to be fair (for example) no one ever called american built cars to be most reliable car compared to other countries. Most exciting or most innovative (or cheapest) - there were certain very reliable cars made in one time or another , but as a whole unfortunately factory reliability has never been strong suit.

and btw: Thanks ShadyJ - someone who knows thing or two about testing subs.

Made, assembled

I don't have time to really read this but I can tell you for free, now that BillyP is involved, it's gonna get catty.

Nah....its really not worth my time...unlike some who seemingly like to follow a specific brand or mfg from one forum to the next...I don't have have that kind passion or time to waste.

I just happen to stop by yesterday...and I did not agree with another members post...especially one coming from a guy talking about value within subs when the sub he owns was IIRC won in some sort of contest. Can't beat that for value.

 

[Tom V.]

Made, assembled



Nah....its really not worth my time...unlike some who seemingly like to follow a specific brand or mfg from one forum to the next...I don't have have that kind passion or time to waste.

Let's face it, anything Power Sound Audio has done in our 3-4 years is always criticized from one individual. If ANY other brand did the same, the same anonymous forum entity would be praising them to high heavens.. Folks are used to it, they make jokes about this "person" every day in chat when they are deciding what to order from us. I bet he/she is likely responsible for a bigger % of our website traffic than any one else. Kind of ironic..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[ATLAudio]

Let's face it, anything Power Sound Audio has done in our 3-4 years is always criticized from one individual. If ANY other brand did the same, the same anonymous forum entity would be praising them to high heavens.. Folks are used to it, they make jokes about this "person" every day in chat when they are deciding what to order from us. I bet he/she is likely responsible for a bigger % of our website traffic than any one else. Kind of ironic..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Indeed,

For a good laugh I suggest everyone read up on his post history on AVS, and elsewhere, and while I have to commend his effort, time, and dedication to slam PSA, I have to admit I haven't seen a more devoted fanboy on the internet. That includes my days on Prodigy in the 90s discussing Sega and Nintendo (how's that for inside baseball? lol).

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

In any case, I'm done here, and unlike the BSA guy. I mean it.

Oh yes, of-course you do

Indeed,

For a good laugh I suggest everyone read up on his post history on AVS, and elsewhere, and while I have to commend his effort, time, and dedication to slam PSA, I have to admit I haven't seen a more devoted fanboy on the internet. That includes my days on Prodigy in the 90s discussing Sega and Nintendo (how's that for inside baseball? lol).

Rich, really rich. From person who started with inflammatory and offensive posts on this thread.

I do agree with Steve. Both PSA and HSU make excellent products. I already stated my opinion on which way I would go with due to MY PERSONAL perceived value comparison , but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and choices.

I also agree with ShadyJ regarding PSA product marketing, which just like TomV comment above, is IMO a bit arrogant.

 

[Tom V.]

Indeed,

For a good laugh I suggest everyone read up on his post history on AVS, and elsewhere, and while I have to commend his effort, time, and dedication to slam PSA, I have to admit I haven't seen a more devoted fanboy on the internet. That includes my days on Prodigy in the 90s discussing Sega and Nintendo (how's that for inside baseball? lol).

Most of us would consider reasoning (or being reasonable) the process of forming conclusions from facts or evidence.

In this case, we have an individual who has predetermined conclusions and they need to refer to imaginary "facts" as their "evidence".

One example is calling us "deceptive" because our comparison charts show the facts.

If someone is interested in how products compare in the deep bass, we make that easy. If someone is interested in how products compare in the midbass we make that easy, if someone is interested in the upper bass...well, you get the idea.

We use the full operating bandwidth of the subwoofer(16-100hz) to make the final product comparisons. That is absolutely the most accurate way to do so. We aren't emphasizing the importance of any narrow bandwidth this way. Instead we are including the ENTIRE operating bandwidth of the products involved. Also, contrary to the bogus claims by this individual--- there is *no* evidence showing that having max output capabilities as even as possible across the operating bandwidth offers any audible benefit. In fact, the opposite is true. You should always maximize headroom. Josh Ricci, Mark Seaton and many other industry professionals share this POV. Want evidence? Read though every subwoofer GTG at AVS and look who wins the overall scorecards....Submersive. Oh, wait....it has MUCH more mid and upper bass headroom than deep bass. Similar to the S3000(i). How could it possible win all the GTGs when *someone* has already decided this is a poor way to design a product?

Oh yeah, they have no need for evidence or facts when the end goal is simply a smear campaign.



Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[ATLAudio]

Oh yes, of-course you do



Rich, really rich. From person who started with inflammatory and offensive posts on this thread.

I do agree with Steve. Both PSA and HSU make excellent products. I already stated my opinion on which way I would go with due to MY PERSONAL perceived value comparison , but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and choices.

I also agree with ShadyJ regarding PSA product marketing, which just like TomV comment above, is IMO a bit arrogant.

Since you like to cherry pick data, it’s no small wonder you’d cherry pick my statement which most reasonable people would understand was directed with whom I was speaking. I have placed him on ignore, and wish no further discussion with him. But in case I wasn’t clear I’m not done speaking about the new PSA subs in this thread or anywhere else on this forum. You were quite clear that you were done with our conversation, and then in a second post reaffirmed that you were done speaking with me, and now you’re here for round three.

“I do agree with Steve. Both PSA and HSU make excellent products.”

I made this point multiple times.

“I already stated my opinion on which way I would go with due to MY PERSONAL perceived value comparison, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and choices.”

Your opinion was given broadly and definitively as to be a suggestion for everyone, in everyone’s set up, and to include everyone’s listening goals. You seem to be ignoring evidence simply because it doesn’t apply to you. For example an X3000i in your great room might be a poor choice compared to the HSU VTF 15mk2, or the V1500 for less money. The data points in the X3000/i also might not be important to you and your system, but they still exists, and are quite applicable to many customers as I've tried to explain. Seriously, your demotion of hard data into ‘just opinions’ is the oldest trick in the book.

“I also agree with ShadyJ regarding PSA product marketing, which just like TomV comment above is IMO a bit arrogant.”

Product marketing is kind of supposed to be at least a little arrogant, dude! You’re supposed to shout from the roof tops that your product is the best! Calling out a guy whose years long post volume is largely devoted to slamming one company is a simple reality. Even the poster admits it, and a simple google search proves it. It’s also not arrogant to reveal that his negative publicity has actually helped with sales. There’s a known irony of negative publicity- in the long run cream rises to the top, and it ends up helping.

 

[shadyJ]

To respond to several points made above:

Tom would like to dress up my criticisms as helping sales, but that would seem to be a stretch, especially seeing as how rarely he could competently counter my arguments, instead usually reverting to personal attacks. In this thread, at least he tries to make an semblance of a technical argument amid smears, but it is so weak that is is pretty much a non-starter:
"Also, contrary to the bogus claims by this individual--- there is *no* evidence showing that having max output capabilities as even as possible across the operating bandwidth offers any audible benefit. In fact, the opposite is true."
Here he seems to argue linearity does not matter, and that disproportionate upper bass is preferred. I doubt very much that anyone in the industry would agree, including Ricci and Seaton. If there is ANYONE reading this who prefers that kind of frequency response to a neutral response (aside from the guy selling the subs where that response is built-in), please speak up, as this line of argument needs all the support it can get.

Tom and his supporters want to dismiss my arguments by saying pay no attention to the message, because the messenger is biased and is only operating from a obsessive personal vendetta. They say to look at my posting history to prove it. First of all, even if that were true, it does not invalidate any argument I have put forth; ad hominem attacks are not a legitimate way to refute anyone's point. Secondly, I do welcome an objective search through my own posting history to see what a crazy obsessive I am about attacking this subwoofer vendor. What percentage of my posts actually end up doing this? Maybe 5%? For the poor soul who would actually undertake the endeavor to root through my posting history in search of belligerence against PSA, note how frequently my initially technical arguments are met with personal attacks. It is curious that those who say I have an irrational beef with PSA are always the first and usually the only ones to hurl personal insults.

It's true that I am heavily critical of PSA and likely their most vocal critic, but that does not discredit what I have to say, which brings us to this statement:

"In this case, we have an individual who has predetermined conclusions and they need to refer to imaginary "facts" as their "evidence". One example is calling us "deceptive" because our comparison charts show the facts."

Tom, here are some facts about your comparison charts: not a single source from whom you draw data support the manner in which you compare that data. Your comparison charts are compiled from four sources: you, Brent Butterworth, Josh Ricci, and Hsu Research. You are the only one for whom your comparison is OK, and you have only measured your own subs, naturally. And I am the one with the blinding bias?