Need expert advice if an external Amp will improve my system?

Sealman

Sealman

Junior Audioholic
Well since this has turned into an audio upgrade issue I would suggest a power amp as an upgrade as opposed to a new AVR.
That would solve your "what if" questions on power for your speakers and give you an upgrade path for a new receiver or prepro down the road.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Well since this has turned into an audio upgrade issue I would suggest a power amp as an upgrade as opposed to a new AVR.
That would solve your "what if" questions on power for your speakers and give you an upgrade path for a new receiver or prepro down the road.
He needs something he can hook an amp up to. His current receiver doesn't have any preouts
 
Sealman

Sealman

Junior Audioholic
He needs something he can hook an amp up to. His current receiver doesn't have any preouts
Well according to the specs on the Yamaha TSR7810 it DOES have 7.2 preouts. All the pics I could find show that as well.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Well according to the specs on the Yamaha TSR7810 it DOES have 7.2 preouts. All the pics I could find show that as well.
Yeah the manua I saw covers a couple models, I think previously I had looked at the one model it covers without the set of pre-outs. Looking now the V781/TSR7810 both do seem to have pre-outs. I think someone else said it didn't have pre-outs but if it was just me, sorry. I agree, for @Bin to just add a power amp unless there's something else needed in the avr.
 
K

Kleinst

Junior Audioholic
You have to double your amp power for every 3 dB of gain. 90 dB @50w, would be 93 dB @100w, 96 dB @200w etc.


That's a neat tool that can give you an idea of the relationship between power and loudness. Just fill in the boxes (speaker sensitivity, power, distance, etc.) and click "calculate". More power is rarely the answer when seeking better sound.
That is an interesting tool. i Like it. Question, does the use of 2 subwoofers crossed over at 80 perhaps not change the 3db difference between a 100 and 200 watt amp but further lesson the Watts demanded to achieve high levels of sound? I have a outlaw 7500 And am glad to have it. if just minor max output is there anything else having the Amp provides assuming a good AVR?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
That is an interesting tool. i Like it. Question, does the use of 2 subwoofers crossed over at 80 perhaps not change the 3db difference between a 100 and 200 watt amp but further lesson the Watts demanded to achieve high levels of sound? I have a outlaw 7500 And am glad to have it. if just minor max output is there anything else having the Amp provides assuming a good AVR?
The amp in the avr/power amp isnt driving the sub's amp.
 
K

Kleinst

Junior Audioholic
The amp in the avr/power amp isnt driving the sub's amp.
right, that’s the point, how much does using an sub for lows affect the amount of power needed for the remainder of the sound ? How much relief does that provide the AVR
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
right, that’s the point, how much does using an sub for lows affect the amount of power needed for the remainder of the sound ? How much relief does that provide the AVR
Some but not terribly significant IMO.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
Question, does the use of 2 subwoofers crossed over at 80 perhaps not change the 3db difference between a 100 and 200 watt amp but further lesson the Watts demanded to achieve high levels of sound? I have a outlaw 7500 And am glad to have it. if just minor max output is there anything else having the Amp provides assuming a good AVR?
Classifying the Left/Right as "small" and crossing them over at 80Hz in Denon Audyssey setup can provide a tighter sound. It's a good use of the two sub configuration. It can also help you achieve slightly higher sound levels. However, for me the goal is crystal clear sound rather than higher SPL. The Outlaw 7500 will work great in this setup.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
right, that’s the point, how much does using an sub for lows affect the amount of power needed for the remainder of the sound ? How much relief does that provide the AVR
Another thing to consider is, 85 dB + 20 for dynamic peaks is reference level. That's also pretty frackin' loud. If you play with that calculator you'll see that in most cases that's only a couple of watts. Where the extra power comes in handy is the 105 dB peaks. Now, I myself rarely listen to anything at reference levels so I rarely get into what my amp is capable of.

You're better off seeking higher sensitivity speakers if you're after more volume.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Some but not terribly significant IMO.
I’m inclined to agree here. I find that while it definitely doesn’t hurt to offload to subwoofers, it’s very often overstated. Especially at normal levels. I think most midrange AVR’s are suitable in most applications. Obviously not ALL though.
Entry level AVR’s need not apply.
 
B

Bin

Junior Audioholic
Sorry guys, was busy the past few days.

@Pogre , i finally received my dual VTF3 MK5 subs.
I only played around with it a little bit, by using Yamaha YPAO to run room correction on a single position (will get into multi position later in this weekend).

Here's what i notice so far, and i am still cracking my head as to why :-
1) I placed the HSU subs into the same position of my PB1000 where it previously were. And I thought with larger drivers will produce a little bit better headroom. Apparently it turned out the opposite result.
From what i can hear, the HSU subs produce a cleaner bass BUT it's way quieter than what dual PB1000 were able to produced.
2) I started with sub volume at 9oclock, and AVR at +3db after YPAO. Later I adjusted the sub volume to 10oclock, and reun YPAO which produce a AVR at -3.5db. I later bumbed up AVR by 3db to -0.5db. Main speakers xo at 100hz.
By doing this, the bass volume did come through a little louder but still lower than what PB1000 were able to do.

Link to before after image.

This may due to the driver position of the subs is in a different position inside the enclosure, hence created a phase issue maybe.
What i will also try later, is to swap the sub and L/R speaker position...........make the L/R speaker to the inner side, and move the subs to outer side of the position......and see if that helps.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Sorry guys, was busy the past few days.

@Pogre , i finally received my dual VTF3 MK5 subs.
I only played around with it a little bit, by using Yamaha YPAO to run room correction on a single position (will get into multi position later in this weekend).

Here's what i notice so far, and i am still cracking my head as to why :-
1) I placed the HSU subs into the same position of my PB1000 where it previously were. And I thought with larger drivers will produce a little bit better headroom. Apparently it turned out the opposite result.
From what i can hear, the HSU subs produce a cleaner bass BUT it's way quieter than what dual PB1000 were able to produced.
2) I started with sub volume at 9oclock, and AVR at +3db after YPAO. Later I adjusted the sub volume to 10oclock, and reun YPAO which produce a AVR at -3.5db. I later bumbed up AVR by 3db to -0.5db. Main speakers xo at 100hz.
By doing this, the bass volume did come through a little louder but still lower than what PB1000 were able to do.

Link to before after image.

This may due to the driver position of the subs is in a different position inside the enclosure, hence created a phase issue maybe.
What i will also try later, is to swap the sub and L/R speaker position...........make the L/R speaker to the inner side, and move the subs to outer side of the position......and see if that helps.
Couple of things- can you refresh my memory on your room size? I looked at your op and scanned the first page and didn't see it.
Why did you only run setup for 1 sub position? I'm not sure what you're saying here, can you expand a little?
Where is your crossover set?
Are your speakers set to large or small?
Ports open, closed?
EQ 1 or 2?
Phase?
 
Last edited:
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Couple things come to mind... there is no way a pb1000 should outperform those new subs.
Therefore you are likely experiencing cancelation issues due to proximity to the front speakers, or the subs are triggering room mode nulls in their location.
Either can be fixed by placement in one way or another.
My best recommendation is to do the subwoofer crawl. Though it is a crude technique, it will show you the actual best places in your room to put the subwoofers. This is about pure acoustic performance.
Do the crawl, find the best 2-3 locations, put your subs there... and retest with a full room correction run.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Couple things come to mind... there is no way a pb1000 should outperform those new subs.
Therefore you are likely experiencing cancelation issues due to proximity to the front speakers, or the subs are triggering room mode nulls in their location.
Either can be fixed by placement in one way or another.
My best recommendation is to do the subwoofer crawl. Though it is a crude technique, it will show you the actual best places in your room to put the subwoofers. This is about pure acoustic performance.
Do the crawl, find the best 2-3 locations, put your subs there... and retest with a full room correction run.
I have a theory on that. If his room is pretty big those PB1000s might have been pushed pretty hard and possibly distorting. I felt the same way he did when I first got my big subs. The distortion was gone and they seemed quieter. There are various other tweaks (I know you know too), that's why I asked all the questions.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
I have a theory on that. If his room is pretty big those PB1000s might have been pushed pretty hard and possibly distorting. I felt the same way he did when I first got my big subs. The distortion was gone and they seemed quieter. There are various other tweaks (I know you know too), that's why I asked all the questions.
True that... distortion has a significant and unexpected effect on our perception of low frequencies.
Good bass is present and subtle. Until it’s not. Then your foundation settles, door frames shift, and windows crack!
:eek:
Why do I want a JTR Sub so bad?....
Oh yeah:
:cool:
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
True that... distortion has a significant and unexpected effect on our perception of low frequencies.
Good bass is present and subtle. Until it’s not. Then your foundation settles, door frames shift, and windows crack!
:eek:
Why do I want a JTR Sub so bad?....
Oh yeah:
:cool:
Good lord, that thing pretty well mopped the floor with the PB16 Ultra! And it's the only one that even came close! Gawd... I know JTR are at the top of the food chain for performance but that's just ridiculous.

I'll take 2 pls.

There's another part to the story about my perception of the big subs, now that I think about it... I think there was also a visual placebo effect happening in my case. I went from 12s to 15s and the drivers in the 15s look like they're barely moving compared to the 12s. I really think that added to the perception.
 
B

Bin

Junior Audioholic
Couple of things- can you refresh my memory on your room size? I looked at your op and scanned the first page and didn't see it.
Why did you only run setup for 1 sub position? I'm not sure what you're saying here, can you expand a little?
Where is your crossover set?
Are your speakers set to large or small?
Ports open, closed?
EQ 1 or 2?
Phase?
OK, here comes the detail :)

Main living room size : 24ft D X 13ft W X 13ft H (high ceiling)
Open up L shape room size : 12ft X 12ft X 8ft H
Listening position from TV : 12.5ft
All main set to Small and xo at 100Hz L/R
1 port open , EQ1 , Q control 0.7
(i tied EQ2 and lower Q control, it didn't help..........i tried 2 ports open, the bass didn't go low enough to my taste)

Interestingly i saw your next post, that you felt how i feel now when you first got your HSU subs.
So what did u do boost the volume?
Like i mentioned earlier, i will try to move some muscle to swap my speakers/subs position and see if that helps.

And lastly, sorry to confused you on the 1 sub position, i didn't mean that. Yamaha YPAO can run room correction on 1 position or multi up to 8 seating positions......earlier i meant to say i only ran YPAO on 1 seating position only to test the sub out, i will be running YPAO on multi seating position later.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
OK, here comes the detail :)

Main living room size : 24ft D X 13ft W X 13ft H (high ceiling)
Open up L shape room size : 12ft X 12ft X 8ft H
Listening position from TV : 12.5ft
All main set to Small and xo at 100Hz L/R
1 port open , EQ1 , Q control 0.7
(i tied EQ2 and lower Q control, it didn't help..........i tried 2 ports open, the bass didn't go low enough to my taste)

Interestingly i saw your next post, that you felt how i feel now when you first got your HSU subs.
So what did u do boost the volume?
Like i mentioned earlier, i will try to move some muscle to swap my speakers/subs position and see if that helps.

And lastly, sorry to confused you on the 1 sub position, i didn't mean that. Yamaha YPAO can run room correction on 1 position or multi up to 8 seating positions......earlier i meant to say i only ran YPAO on 1 seating position only to test the sub out, i will be running YPAO on multi seating position later.
What is your AVR? How many SUB OUTs does it have?


Geddes technique is my preference. The concept of specific placement for all rooms is bogus... because All Rooms Are Different! It sounds like you have a more complex room, therefore, the dogmatc approach of front wall, 1/4 wall, 1/2 wall, corner loading... may not work for you. If you do the Crawl with an open mind and a willingness to learn, the following can make a lot of sense. :)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
OK, here comes the detail :)

Main living room size : 24ft D X 13ft W X 13ft H (high ceiling)
Open up L shape room size : 12ft X 12ft X 8ft H
Listening position from TV : 12.5ft
All main set to Small and xo at 100Hz L/R
1 port open , EQ1 , Q control 0.7
(i tied EQ2 and lower Q control, it didn't help..........i tried 2 ports open, the bass didn't go low enough to my taste)

Interestingly i saw your next post, that you felt how i feel now when you first got your HSU subs.
So what did u do boost the volume?
Like i mentioned earlier, i will try to move some muscle to swap my speakers/subs position and see if that helps.

And lastly, sorry to confused you on the 1 sub position, i didn't mean that. Yamaha YPAO can run room correction on 1 position or multi up to 8 seating positions......earlier i meant to say i only ran YPAO on 1 seating position only to test the sub out, i will be running YPAO on multi seating position later.
You may have seen my next post but you kind of glossed over the "quieter because distortion was gone" part, lol.

You do have a big room and I hate to use the word "distort" because I know that's something SVS pushes harder than most companies do. They do not tolerate distortion, even at the lowest frequencies. That said, in a room that big I think the PBs were pushed close to their limits. When drivers are pushed hard like that they tend to distort and make more noise than they should. Welcome to clean(er) bass, lol.

You should always take all 8 measurements. The more info YPAO has the better it can make adjustments. Make sure you follow the pattern closely, not too far apart and your mic is at ear level. You know Hsu recommends running setup with 1 port open, EQ1 and Q 0.7 right? I don't know how YPAO works, but Audyssey will have you adjust the sub levels with the gain on the back of your sub. Once I get it where Audyssey likes it I never touch the gain again. You should always do any adjusting after setup through your avr.

You asked me what I did to boost the volume? When I ran setup (with all 8 measurements!) I plugged one port, EQ1 and Q 0.7 just like Hsu recommends. After that I pull the port plug (both ports open), flip it to EQ2 and bump my sub levels about 3 dB. Also, Audyssey has a Dynamic EQ feature that gives a nice boost to the bass frequencies so I turn that on and set the RLO to -10. Again, not being familiar with Yamaha I'm not sure if they'd have a similar feature. Bass boost perhaps? I think @AcuDefTechGuy might have some tips for you there.

EQ1 with 1 port open is the deepest extension mode yes, but it's also the tamest in my opinion. It lacks punch and power, imo. I have both ports open and use EQ2 for almost everything. That puts a little boost in the actual audible range that comes through really nice for my music and I like the extra headroom. The only time I really ever use deepest extension mode is if I'm watching "Interstellar" or something and wanna rattle the rafters or show off. I ran with EQ1, 1 port open at first too, thinking I preferred the deeper extension. If you really think about it tho, you're robbing from the audible range and putting it into the mostly inaudible range. How much content do you listen to with sub 25-30 hz material in it? I have a few Blu rays with movies that will rattle the house with subsonic frequencies, but very little music.
 

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