Need expert advice if an external Amp will improve my system?

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
One other note... the slim PC fans will do better in the space you have, but ideally you need to completely redirect the air from that slot. When I had my AVR in a closed cabinet, I sued this... more expensive, yes. But, it drew fresh air in and through the AVR and directionally vented the hot air away.

For me, i needed the front exhaust. They also make these with top exhaust (nothing but free open air above) and rear exhaust (Preferred!). :)

If you have space behind your equipment, I would strongly advise use of a rear-exhaust unit.
 
B

Bin

Junior Audioholic
One other note... the slim PC fans will do better in the space you have, but ideally you need to completely redirect the air from that slot. When I had my AVR in a closed cabinet, I sued this... more expensive, yes. But, it drew fresh air in and through the AVR and directionally vented the hot air away.

For me, i needed the front exhaust. They also make these with top exhaust (nothing but free open air above) and rear exhaust (Preferred!). :)

If you have space behind your equipment, I would strongly advise use of a rear-exhaust unit.
Thanks mate.

I am new to HT set up that's why I am here asking for experience opinion.

So the fan should not be on top of the AVR chassis because it's blowing the air back into the unit. Do you recommend that I place the fan on the back site of the AVR where all the cables are?

Honestly I don't have much space to work around, but if you can direct me the right spot to place the fan, I may be able to work around
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
This is the top mount rear exhaust version of what I use. Highly recommend.

Then there are these options... much more budget friendly.

I would not use the fan you have in the way you are... if anything, use it to circulate air around your system, but I don't think it will be effective at drawing air up and through because the fan itself is too large, and the blade aren't close enough to the unit.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Yeah, yeah, I knew it wouldn't be long until somebody showed up with that comment. I bought the fricking Sherbourn because, at the time, I hoped that it would improve the sound. So, if I were to have any expectation or confirmation bias, it would have been in favor of the Sherbourn, not in favor of the AVR. And I didn't come to my conclusion lightly. Rather, I compared back and forth for days and days, during which time my observation was consistent. I guess if you want to disregard your ears in your audio pursuit, go right ahead.
And your point? You expected to hear a difference, did hear a difference and I believe your expectation to hear any difference biased your subjective impressions. If you want to rely on sighted comparisons and go in with preconceptions that are known to not only influence what you hear subjectively, but can impact your other senses (plenty of studies to support placebo) as well then go right ahead.

So I guess I would say I disregard placebo, trust my ears and don't waste my money on silly audiophool myths like cables, interconnects and amps that have more initial attack on drums than others...
 
M

mtrot

Full Audioholic
And your point? You expected to hear a difference, did hear a difference and I believe your expectation to hear any difference biased your subjective impressions. If you want to rely on sighted comparisons and go in with preconceptions that are known to not only influence what you hear subjectively, but can impact your other senses (plenty of studies to support placebo) as well then go right ahead.

So I guess I would say I disregard placebo, trust my ears and don't waste my money on silly audiophool myths like cables, interconnects and amps that have more initial attack on drums than others...
No, just no. You are not even really reading what I wrote. You're completely assuming that I expected in this most recent experiment to hear one or the other sounding better, and I'm not sure why you are so fricking sure of that, nor why it is so important to you to convince me that every difference I hear is due to expectation bias. I now assiduously avoid any bias in comparing different equipment. I am very skeptical about spending my money.

Now, I had bought the Sherbourn several years ago, like I said. At that time, I didn't know much about all this and, yes, I did hope I would get an improvement in bass and slam. And I did perceive some added bass impact. As to whether that was all an illusion born of expectation bias I cannot say.

But what I am now talking about to the OP is that last year, after reading and learning more here at AH about amps, AVRs, power requirements, and expectation bias, I wanted to try to see if I could perceive any difference with the Sherbourn vs with the Onkyo alone. I had no reason to have any bias one way or the other, and there was no reason for me to really care which way might sound better. By your logic and argument, it had to be bias that caused me to favor one over the other. The problem with that is that if I had any bias, which I did not, but if I did, my bias would have been for it to sound better with the Sherbourn, but that did not turn out to be the case. So, how would you explain that with your theory? I was perfectly content to stick with using the Sherbourn or getting rid of it. It's not like I needed the money out of it at all. So, I went back and forth over a period of days, and I stick by my observations.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
No, just no. You are not even really reading what I wrote. You're completely assuming that I expected in this most recent experiment to hear one or the other sounding better, and I'm not sure why you are so fricking sure of that, nor why it is so important to you to convince me that every difference I hear is due to expectation bias. I now assiduously avoid any bias in comparing different equipment. I am very skeptical about spending my money.

Now, I had bought the Sherbourn several years ago, like I said. At that time, I didn't know much about all this and, yes, I did hope I would get an improvement in bass and slam. And I did perceive some added bass impact. As to whether that was all an illusion born of expectation bias I cannot say.

But what I am now talking about to the OP is that last year, after reading and learning more here at AH about amps, AVRs, power requirements, and expectation bias, I wanted to try to see if I could perceive any difference with the Sherbourn vs with the Onkyo alone. I had no reason to have any bias one way or the other, and there was no reason for me to really care which way might sound better. By your logic and argument, it had to be bias that caused me to favor one over the other. The problem with that is that if I had any bias, which I did not, but if I did, my bias would have been for it to sound better with the Sherbourn, but that did not turn out to be the case. So, how would you explain that with your theory? I was perfectly content to stick with using the Sherbourn or getting rid of it. It's not like I needed the money out of it at all. So, I went back and forth over a period of days, and I stick by my observations.
You seem angry, lol. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Real or not, I believe you can hear a difference. Personally I'd rather trust my ears over my eyes.
 
Sealman

Sealman

Junior Audioholic
Place your fan behind the receiver and have it blow across the top of the receiver and into the room. This will work just fine though not as good as a dedicated solution.
I have used this method in the past with a hot running Denon that would go into auto protect regularly and it worked just fine.
 
B

Bin

Junior Audioholic
Guys, coming back to this post.
I think it's time for me to think about whether or not to upgrade my entry level AVR. From reading the history of this post, it seems like my AVR might be the bottleneck.

Here's some spec to go with :-
- Living room : 24ft D X 13ft W X ~12ft High ceiling (~3700cu ft)
- L shape room : 12ft D X 12ft W X 8ft H (~1150cu ft)
- Laminate flooring and open areas with lots of windows.
- AVR Yamaha TSR 7810
- Main speakers Polk LSIM 707 and Polk LSIM 706c
- Dual HSU VTF3 MK5 (arriving tomorrow)
- System is 3.2
- AVR listening volume between -40db to -20db
- 50/50 music/movie (me and my wife loves bass, she never and didn't like to listen to pure direct ;))

I am thinking to maybe upgrading my AVR might help with headroom in any case if i listen to higher volume, and also a better AVR may be able to run this POLK speakers better.

I appreciate if some of the pros here can advise if upgrading my AVR will really help?
And what model of AVR is good in my case?
I am not looking for super high end model, i am looking for something that's powerful enough to drive the Polk speakers, and potentially adding 2 more surround speakers on front high channel.

Thanks in advance guiys.........
 
B

Bin

Junior Audioholic
Home Theater enthusiast is an endless hobby...lol.
I am just looking for a potential upgrade on my AVR based on my the above description i provided in my post earlier today.

I am doing a gradual upgrade now, given that i am content with my main speakers and recently upgrade to HSU subs (arriving tomorrow), the only one equipment left is my entry level AVR.

Am not looking for something like 11 channels, anything from 5 to 9 channels is sufficient for future surround speakers addition.
Secondly, i sold my PB1000 while waiting for HSU subs to arrive. Hence i changed my L/R towers to run full range (large) now.......somehow, it sounded weird during high frequency (tweeters) and the music isn't sound as pretty as it used to be before when i had my dual PB1000 with speakers set to small xo 90hz.

Hence, i am just looking for options for AVR upgrade, doesn't have to be super high end that cost me few grand, so i can start saving up my money for future AVR upgrade :)
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic General
You won't gain much headroom by going with a different AVR. To get an additional 3dB of headroom you have to double the power available and that isn't going to happen in an AVR.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
@Bin This time make sure you get a full set of pre-outs so you have amp flexibility. Or go a bit further and get a pre-pro and power amp setup.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Guys, coming back to this post.
I think it's time for me to think about whether or not to upgrade my entry level AVR. From reading the history of this post, it seems like my AVR might be the bottleneck.

Here's some spec to go with :-
- Living room : 24ft D X 13ft W X ~12ft High ceiling (~3700cu ft)
- L shape room : 12ft D X 12ft W X 8ft H (~1150cu ft)
- Laminate flooring and open areas with lots of windows.
- AVR Yamaha TSR 7810
- Main speakers Polk LSIM 707 and Polk LSIM 706c
- Dual HSU VTF3 MK5 (arriving tomorrow)
- System is 3.2
- AVR listening volume between -40db to -20db
- 50/50 music/movie (me and my wife loves bass, she never and didn't like to listen to pure direct ;))

I am thinking to maybe upgrading my AVR might help with headroom in any case if i listen to higher volume, and also a better AVR may be able to run this POLK speakers better.

I appreciate if some of the pros here can advise if upgrading my AVR will really help?
And what model of AVR is good in my case?
I am not looking for super high end model, i am looking for something that's powerful enough to drive the Polk speakers, and potentially adding 2 more surround speakers on front high channel.

Thanks in advance guiys.........
How much headroom do you think you'll gain? If you are going to get a new avr, at least make sure it has a full set of preouts on it and good room correction. That might actually help if you're using a basic setup program now. The power specs won't amount to anything significant at this range.

*I started this post before you posted a link to the 4500. That's a good avr with preouts and good room correction. That said, I don't think it's going to do what you're hoping for. As far as headroom goes, you're gaining almost exactly 1 dB. It's been a minute since I posted in this thread so I forget what your room and layout are like, but I'm sure it was adressed. Were there opportunities there? Subwoofage? If you're chasing after sonic improvements that's going to come from your speakers, placement, subs and room.

When you run setup with Audyssey XT32 on the 4500 make sure you carefully follow instructions and the pattern they show on the screen. I even go a little bit tighter (18" or 20" instead of 24" from 1st position) with the pattern. That's the 1 (and only) thing that might offer you some improvement over what you have now by upgrading your avr, so you don't wanna mess it up!
 
K

Kleinst

Junior Audioholic
I also give thumbs up to the aircom infinity fan systems. I bought them for the AVRs in my house and yes it's a up front investment but it makes me feel good to know that the AVRs are keeping cool and the cost over time is pretty low.
 
K

Kleinst

Junior Audioholic
Agreed with what's been said. To play it safe, you should invest $20 to on a couple of those Infinity fans. Put them on top of the unit, set both the lowest speed so you don't hear the fan noise from you seat, and your AVR will thank you and live longer.

Those speakers likely have impedance dips to about 3 to 4 ohms and not too friendly phase angles in the 80 to 130 Hz range so setting XO to 100 Hz should help too. Listening volume is -40 to -20 is great, as song that's for things like BR movies. If you have the vol at -20 and watch something on YouTube then you have to be careful because some contents were recorded at very high level. The sad truth a lot of people don't realize is that a 200 W external amp would only increase sound pressure level by about 3 dB. Two fans are much cheaper than a 200 WPC amp.
Question on the math that the 200WPC amp only increases sound pressure by 3db. Is that just the last 3db that can be delivered without distortion? And up to that point it's the same as say an 100WPC AVR? And if yo don't tend to play loud enough to get to that point then there is no difference? So hard to believe that my dedicated 80 point Outlaw doesn't do more than that but it's very possible that math checks out. Yet I still keep looking at AMPs cause it's fun. But also interesting that is could make such a small difference. Evidence of this for me is I have a $100 Sony receiver I bought about 15 years ago. When my last AVR went out I use that as a backup and it really sounds great. It's strange. It's super dynamic and maybe has a little distortion but it's surprisingly good. If it had ATMOS and 9 channels I'd use it today. Anways, Just wanted to make sure I understood the 3db math.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Question on the math that the 200WPC amp only increases sound pressure by 3db. Is that just the last 3db that can be delivered without distortion? And up to that point it's the same as say an 100WPC AVR? And if yo don't tend to play loud enough to get to that point then there is no difference? So hard to believe that my dedicated 80 point Outlaw doesn't do more than that but it's very possible that math checks out. Yet I still keep looking at AMPs cause it's fun. But also interesting that is could make such a small difference. Evidence of this for me is I have a $100 Sony receiver I bought about 15 years ago. When my last AVR went out I use that as a backup and it really sounds great. It's strange. It's super dynamic and maybe has a little distortion but it's surprisingly good. If it had ATMOS and 9 channels I'd use it today. Anways, Just wanted to make sure I understood the 3db math.
You have to double your amp power for every 3 dB of gain. 90 dB @50w, would be 93 dB @100w, 96 dB @200w etc.


That's a neat tool that can give you an idea of the relationship between power and loudness. Just fill in the boxes (speaker sensitivity, power, distance, etc.) and click "calculate". More power is rarely the answer when seeking better sound.
 

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