Need Amplifier Recommendation for Speakers

P

ptalar

Junior Audioholic
I have 1960's vintage Klipschorn speakers that I want to use for music. I am not very savvy in amplifiers so if one of the audioholics would recommend a good clean, sounding, reliable amp that has an RMS power rating from 50-100 watts per channel. The room size is 20 x 20. Total Harmonic Distortion should be as small as possible. I have a budget of $1000 I want to spend on an amp.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Phil
 
R

ruadmaa

Banned
Klipschorn Speakers

ptalar said:
I have 1960's vintage Klipschorn speakers that I want to use for music. I am not very savvy in amplifiers so if one of the audioholics would recommend a good clean, sounding, reliable amp that has an RMS power rating from 50-100 watts per channel. The room size is 20 x 20. Total Harmonic Distortion should be as small as possible. I have a budget of $1000 I want to spend on an amp.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Phil
You can power those speakers to thundering levels with as little as 10 watts. Virtually any amp can drive them.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, but I believe that they dip into low impedance, so you shouldn't just get a cheap POS amp. On the inexpensive end, I'd recommend a Behringer A500. From there, I'd suggest that you check out the offerings from B&K, Parasound, ATI, Rotel, and if you can find them, a used Bryston or McIntosh.
 
R

ruadmaa

Banned
Why Would Your Possibly Recommend So Much Power?

jaxvon said:
Yes, but I believe that they dip into low impedance, so you shouldn't just get a cheap POS amp. On the inexpensive end, I'd recommend a Behringer A500. From there, I'd suggest that you check out the offerings from B&K, Parasound, ATI, Rotel, and if you can find them, a used Bryston or McIntosh.
Why in the world would you possibly recommend so much power for a pair of Klipschorns??? They are one of the most efficient speakers ever built. All he would be doing is wasting electricity and money. Those Klipschorns will work well with any receiver/amp. Brute power is totally unnecessary.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
He didn't recommend "brute power", just quality power. The A500 is a very cost effective and efficient amp at just $180. Just because a speaker is efficient doesn't mean it doesn't present a heavy load to an amp.

ptalar - by "amp" do you mean you want a new receiver or an amplifier to add to the current receiver? The two are not the same thing.
 
R

ruadmaa

Banned
Efficient Speakers Present A Heavy Load???

j_garcia said:
He didn't recommend "brute power", just quality power. The A500 is a very cost effective and efficient amp at just $180. Just because a speaker is efficient doesn't mean it doesn't present a heavy load to an amp.

ptalar - by "amp" do you mean you want a new receiver or an amplifier to add to the current receiver? The two are not the same thing.
"Just because a speaker is efficient doesn't mean it doesn't present a heavy load to an amp."

Please explain your statement to me. It has always been my understanding that the more efficient a speaker is, the lighter a load it presents to an amplifier.
 
P

ptalar

Junior Audioholic
I looked at the A500. Specs look good and distortion is below 0.01. Pretty good for $269. Seems like clean power.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Phil
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
ptalar said:
I looked at the A500. Specs look good and distortion is below 0.01. Pretty good for $269. Seems like clean power.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Phil
at Part$ Express .com they are going for $180.

Please explain your statement to me. It has always been my understanding that the more efficient a speaker is, the lighter a load it presents to an amplifier.
Impedance varies with load, so even if a speaker is efficient, it doesn't mean that it doesn't require current to achieve a given SPL for certain frequencies. Playing something bass heavy may cause the impedance to drop quickly or during dynamic peaks. I've always though it was ridiculous of people take the view that Klipsch are efficient so you can use any old amp with them and get great results. If they sound "good" with a crappy 10w amp, why not just get a nicer amp and have them sound great? That doesn't mean you need 200W to drive them, but the statement that you could drive them with 10W is a bit oversimplified and misleading, because it isn't entirely true. During normal listening, maybe 5-10w is all you need for most speakers, but when you are listening at elevated levels and have dynamic peaks, the amp needs to have enough headroom to be able to handle those peaks, even with Klipsch speakers.

Paradigm Studio 60s would be another example. They list impedance as "8 Ohm compatible", meaning they are 8 Ohm nominal, but what that doesn't tell you is that the 60s have been measured to drop down to 2.6 Ohms minimum with program material, and that can strain a lesser amp. I've listened to Studios in more than a few setups including my own, and they start to sound thin when they are underpowered.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
khorns are an awesome speaker,i owned khorns for many years & even though they are 104 db efficient they still like power,when people say that khorns can be driven to thundering levels with low power amps i have to question that but i guess it all depends on what each persons idea of loud is , i was much happier with my khorns with high power amps & i prefered solid state amps over tube amps with them,every tube amp i ran them with made them sound weak & thin.

as with all other speakers within the klipsch heritage line the khorns specified power handeling capability is extremely under rated,your khorns will have no problem handeling 200 watts continuous with 500 watt peaks.

i ran mine with a bunch of different amps from 3 watt S E T amps up to 500 watt solid state amps & i prefered the more powerfull amps every time,if you want to really rock the crap out of your khorns i would look for an amp with more power than the behringer a 500,its a nice amp but your khorns can & will drink all its power easily.

one amp that i ran mine with that fits nicely into your budget is the crown ce-2000,400 wpc @ 8 ohms,dual gain controls & very well built,any guitar shop or dj supply should have them in stock for right around $550.
 
R

ruadmaa

Banned
Klipshorn Power Requirements

highfihoney said:
khorns are an awesome speaker,i owned khorns for many years & even though they are 104 db efficient they still like power,when people say that khorns can be driven to thundering levels with low power amps i have to question that but i guess it all depends on what each persons idea of loud is , i was much happier with my khorns with high power amps & i prefered solid state amps over tube amps with them,every tube amp i ran them with made them sound weak & thin.

as with all other speakers within the klipsch heritage line the khorns specified power handeling capability is extremely under rated,your khorns will have no problem handeling 200 watts continuous with 500 watt peaks.

i ran mine with a bunch of different amps from 3 watt S E T amps up to 500 watt solid state amps & i prefered the more powerfull amps every time,if you want to really rock the crap out of your khorns i would look for an amp with more power than the behringer a 500,its a nice amp but your khorns can & will drink all its power easily.

one amp that i ran mine with that fits nicely into your budget is the crown ce-2000,400 wpc @ 8 ohms,dual gain controls & very well built,any guitar shop or dj supply should have them in stock for right around $550.
Klipschorn speakers were invented in 1946 when 25 watts was considered a fantastic amount of power. They were designed to run extremly loud at low amplifier power.

Below is an excerpt from a review by Klipschorn owner, I think it speaks for itself and is quite the opposite of what you have to say:

"Because these speakers are so sensitive (104db/watt/meter), having a clean "first watt" from your amplifier is crucial. Solid state amps with high power and low THD figures may not do well, because these amps THD figures are measured at the RATED OUTPUT. Trust me, you couldn't be in the same neighborhood when these are getting Led Zeppelin at 100W continuous (but clean) power. Normal 90db listen levels are usually accomplished at 0.5 - 0.75W of power.

One fun demonstration of this fact is to go grab one of the inexpensive TriPath digital amps (Sonic Impact, Teac, etc.) that sell on Amazon for $25 to $95) and run a good source into it (a nice CDP will do very well). These digital amps are very clean, distortion-wise, up to about 5W before they start to get noisy. The sound will blow you away and wonder why loons like me have five grand invested in beautiful tube gear. But because the Klipschorn is so sensitive, you really can grind out some serious music with these monsters; few speakers can accomplish this."
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
highfihoney said:
as with all other speakers within the klipsch heritage line the khorns specified power handeling capability is extremely under rated,your khorns will have no problem handeling 200 watts continuous with 500 watt peaks.
That's interesting, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near those 104 dB sensitivity speaker driven by that much power.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
ruadmaa said:
Klipschorn speakers were invented in 1946 when 25 watts was considered a fantastic amount of power. They were designed to run extremly loud at low amplifier power.

Below is an excerpt from a review by Klipschorn owner, I think it speaks for itself and is quite the opposite of what you have to say:

"Because these speakers are so sensitive (104db/watt/meter), having a clean "first watt" from your amplifier is crucial. Solid state amps with high power and low THD figures may not do well, because these amps THD figures are measured at the RATED OUTPUT. Trust me, you couldn't be in the same neighborhood when these are getting Led Zeppelin at 100W continuous (but clean) power. Normal 90db listen levels are usually accomplished at 0.5 - 0.75W of power.

One fun demonstration of this fact is to go grab one of the inexpensive TriPath digital amps (Sonic Impact, Teac, etc.) that sell on Amazon for $25 to $95) and run a good source into it (a nice CDP will do very well). These digital amps are very clean, distortion-wise, up to about 5W before they start to get noisy. The sound will blow you away and wonder why loons like me have five grand invested in beautiful tube gear. But because the Klipschorn is so sensitive, you really can grind out some serious music with these monsters; few speakers can accomplish this."
rudamaa.

thats a pretty groovy review from a klipschorn/tube gear owner but what i said was not based on a review from an internet source or a google search its from my own experiences with khorns in my own home over many years,i was a klipschorn owner for many years.

when i read statements like his in the review you posted where he states that nobody could stand to be in the same room with led zepplin playing at 100 watts through khorns i automaticly look for the reference to them being driven with a tube amp,its always the same response from tube guys,ive done it many times & its not ungodly loud at all.

there is a mystique that surrounds klipschorns & low power tube gear that i assure you is not reality based,the khorn has a 15 inch woofer with a heavy triple pleated surround & if you want that woofer to move some air it takes power,khorns do not have the best bass response in the first place & unless you get that woofer moving the sound will be weak & thin in the bass,what the reviewer also left out is that if you want to go past "normal" listening levels & into loud levels you need power & current.

the reviewer also references clean power as being a must,isnt that a given with any speaker let alone one so efficient,any super efficient speaker will be unforgiving of a low quality amplifier.

im not sure im seeing whats in the review that contradicts what i wrote,this reviewer made no comparison to any high power solid state amps he ran them with only glowing remarks about how good they sound with low power amps,meaning his tube gear,my original post also states that i ran mine with low power S E T amps & various other amps ranging in different power levels & that i considered the best performance to be with high power solid state amps,i made direct comparisons,he didnt.

its funny the reviewer mentioned the sonic impact t amp as beng able to drive khorns great, i found that amp to be the exact oposite & pretty well worthless as an amplifier,i bought that little amp because of the glowing reviews & planned on running my klipsch cornwalls with it & it fell flat on its face,even though khorns & cornwalls are different speakers all the drivers are the exact same with very little difference in efficency.

everything i wrote in my post was from years of my own direct experience with klipschorns in my home using many different amps of various wattages & not based on a google search,there is alot to be said for trying things first hand.
 
R

ruadmaa

Banned
I Stand Corrected

highfihoney said:
rudamaa.

thats a pretty groovy review from a klipschorn/tube gear owner but what i said was not based on a review from an internet source or a google search its from my own experiences with khorns in my own home over many years,i was a klipschorn owner for many years.

when i read statements like his in the review you posted where he states that nobody could stand to be in the same room with led zepplin playing at 100 watts through khorns i automaticly look for the reference to them being driven with a tube amp,its always the same response from tube guys,ive done it many times & its not ungodly loud at all.

there is a mystique that surrounds klipschorns & low power tube gear that i assure you is not reality based,the khorn has a 15 inch woofer with a heavy triple pleated surround & if you want that woofer to move some air it takes power,khorns do not have the best bass response in the first place & unless you get that woofer moving the sound will be weak & thin in the bass,what the reviewer also left out is that if you want to go past "normal" listening levels & into loud levels you need power & current.

the reviewer also references clean power as being a must,isnt that a given with any speaker let alone one so efficient,any super efficient speaker will be unforgiving of a low quality amplifier.

im not sure im seeing whats in the review that contradicts what i wrote,this reviewer made no comparison to any high power solid state amps he ran them with only glowing remarks about how good they sound with low power amps,meaning his tube gear,my original post also states that i ran mine with low power S E T amps & various other amps ranging in different power levels & that i considered the best performance to be with high power solid state amps,i made direct comparisons,he didnt.

its funny the reviewer mentioned the sonic impact t amp as beng able to drive khorns great, i found that amp to be the exact oposite & pretty well worthless as an amplifier,i bought that little amp because of the glowing reviews & planned on running my klipsch cornwalls with it & it fell flat on its face,even though khorns & cornwalls are different speakers all the drivers are the exact same with very little difference in efficency.

everything i wrote in my post was from years of my own direct experience with klipschorns in my home using many different amps of various wattages & not based on a google search,there is alot to be said for trying things first hand.
Apparently those Klipschorns need 1,200 watt monblocks to operate properly. I can't even imagine what all of the other readers of this forum are doing with those miserable little 100 wpc receivers/amps.
 
Khorn

Khorn

Audioholic Intern
It all comes down to the quality of the power. Sure you can drive them with a receiver and get the SPL's but not the sound quality attained with a really good amp.

I've driven mine with everything from all SS, all Tube and combinations thereof and you really hear the difference with high quality well designed amplification. Loud sound doesn't automatically equal good sound. I use a 60 wpc pure class 'A' amplifier.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
uncalled for sarcasm

ruadmaa said:
Apparently those Klipschorns need 1,200 watt monblocks to operate properly. I can't even imagine what all of the other readers of this forum are doing with those miserable little 100 wpc receivers/amps.
whats up with the sarcasm:( it obviously bothers you that i related my own personal experiences with klipschorns,i gave plator sound advice based on my experience & reccomended an amp well within his budget,please explain why you feel i gave bad advice.

you referenced my mc 1201 monoblocks from my main rig,i never suggested that plator go out & buy a pair but you felt the need to mention them anyways,whats up with that,is that supposed to make me feel ashamed because i have expensive gear or stupid because i overpaid,whats the connection?

i dont have a clue as to what your deal is.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Khorn said:
It all comes down to the quality of the power. Sure you can drive them with a receiver and get the SPL's but not the sound quality attained with a really good amp.

I've driven mine with everything from all SS, all Tube and combinations thereof and you really hear the difference with high quality well designed amplification. Loud sound doesn't automatically equal good sound. I use a 60 wpc pure class 'A' amplifier.
very sound advice & i couldnt agree more,i loved the krell ksa 150 with mine.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
ruadmaa said:
Apparently those Klipschorns need 1,200 watt monblocks to operate properly. I can't even imagine what all of the other readers of this forum are doing with those miserable little 100 wpc receivers/amps.
Get over yourself.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
A500 may not be enough

The truth on the Behringer A500 amp is that it's not all people have talked it up to be. That amp will unlikely put out 100 watts into two channels at .05% thd. When you have speakers that can handle, say 250 watts rms, this Behringer is not the best amp for the application. My Denon 3805 puts out very similar power.

That's not saying the A500 is any slouch, but it's no more than a quality A/V receiver. Without knowing the capacitor size, transformer, or heat sink, and knowing the A500 has a weight of 18lbs, it's my opinion that amp is worth every bit of $180, but not a penny more. It's a great addition to an A/V receiver to biamp a set of mains that need a little more juice in the low end, but to recommend it for a set of Khorns is probably going a bit too far.

Denon 3805 specs into 1kHz and .07% thd:
http://usa.denon.com/AVR3805_DFU_ownersmanual.pdf

A500 specs:
Specifications: *Output power (1 kHz, 0.1% THD)** per channel stereo: 160 watts RMS @ 8 ohms, 230 watts RMS @ 4 ohms. *Output power (1 kHz, 0.1% THD) bridged mono: 500 watts RMS @ 8 ohms. *Weight: 18.5 lbs.
** now imagine what the ratings would be, taken at 20-20,000Hz and .05% THD. Check the difference in wattage on the Denon 3805 to get an idea.

I'd much rather see someone invest another $120 and get the Behringer EP2500 Europower amp with the Khorns. It matches up better with peak rms output handling.
 
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