Need Amplifier Recommendation for Speakers

[mtrycrafts]

No, and I also won't need 6 power cords either I'm talking stereo output at 8 Ohms, which is listed as 160w @ 1kHz.

One reason they make power strips with all those outlets

The Audio Critic tested the A500. Could only do 33V on the rail translating to 138 watts at 1% at 1kHz. But, it is very stable into reactive and capacitive phase shifts of 60 deg, better than the Bryston or as good. So, even at 120watts to 138 watts, it is a great amp for the price.

 

[jaxvon]

The issue with the 2500 amp is that it has fans, something I wouldn't want in my equipment rack. It's designed to be used for FoH sound applications where the SPL from the speaker arrays is far too high for the fans to be audible. I think you could look to spend more on a beefy, fanless amp. I'm a big fan of B&K products, so that would be one place to look. Here's a used B&K on AudiogoN:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1144171138

My Dad has an old B&K ST-202+ that must be at least 15 years old and still going strong. About 5 years back the power switch fried. It was out of warranty, but one call to B&K later and my Dad was only out shipping for a fixed amplifier. They got the amp, fixed the switch, bench tested it, and sent it back within a week. Now that's some service.

Bryston is another great amp maker. Even you can't argue with this Mtry:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1143766671

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have a question for you.

Why is it you think you can tell the sonic characteristis of an amp by its specs, yet you can't do the same when looking at speaker specs?


According to your logic, we should be able to apply this to speakers too. If you have 2 speakers that have the same FR spec (i.e. 35-20k -3db) and the same distortion spec, they will sound the same as long as they are level matched and not driven beyond their capability. No?

Actually, Toole can show very well, that even speaker specs will tell you how they sound as they, speakers, are the ones with the sound, not well designed amps. His research, the Canadian CRC research has shown what envelope speakers need to be to produce sound that most prefer.

Here is a link with the history at CRC, from Mirage speakers. Read the Research History at NRC.
http://miragespeakers.com/nrc_story.shtml

Then, something from Toole:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/AudioScience.pdf

This has a better show on the graphing.

But, for us mortals, with insufficient access to speaker specs of the right kind, we are lost. Your example of a spec is woefully short of off axis response, power response, on and off axis, directivity index etc.
And, that spec doesn't show any roughness someplace in the band as a 6 dB difference will be audible

Compare that to an amp, Fr .2 dB, THD in the 2nd or 3rd decimal place.

No, speakers are not even close to amps transparency, or below thresholds of detection. Speakers are the last frontier to conquer.

 

[mtrycrafts]

i have to question how you came to that conclusion?

Reading research into psychoacoustics, threshold of detections, DBt results of 30 years especially The Audio Critic and Dr Rich's paper:

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Correct. I never offer my comments or opinions unless I've actually had the gear in my house & in my system. How in the world can someone give advice on gear w/ out ever hearing it? Specs only get you so far in evaluating a piece of gear. You have to hear how it performs then you can give advice to others. Guessing how something should sound according to it's specs just don't cut it in my book. How in the world do you buy speakers? Check out the specs & run out & buy them or do you take your favorite material & go listen to them? I'll bet it's the latter

Actually, you do not have to hear modern audio components. History tells us otherwise. And, unless one does a careful comparison, DBT a must, a comparison any other means will deliver unreliable outcome for sure. Then, what good is an unreliable opinion? And, audio science has shown us that specs do correlate very accurately to what we hear, especially when we are not talking speakers. That is not me, that is what has been demonstrated over the past.

Do you also test first hand every consumer product before commenting, or you don't? Do you read Consumer Reports and use their finding to judge? Pass on to others who may not have read CR? Reinventing the wheel is rather fruitless, time consuming and science would never get anywhere when they would have to start from day one on every bit of research from a new researcher.


Then, by your account,As far as the Ferarri & Toyota go the Toyota blows the Ferarri out of the water!!! The one spec that's important to me is - gas mileage.

you must have tested that Ferrari extensively, measured a number of tankfuls to get a good idea of mileage, and the same with the Toyota, right? Be very careful

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mac, good to see people like you who would argue from both sides, totally unbiased. Seriously that's one reason why I like this forum.

That's why we are still buds even though we banged heads in the past

 

[mtrycrafts]

The issue with the 2500 amp is that it has fans, something I wouldn't want in my equipment rack. It's designed to be used for FoH sound applications where the SPL from the speaker arrays is far too high for the fans to be audible. I think you could look to spend more on a beefy, fanless amp. I'm a big fan of B&K products, so that would be one place to look. Here's a used B&K on AudiogoN:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1144171138

My Dad has an old B&K ST-202+ that must be at least 15 years old and still going strong. About 5 years back the power switch fried. It was out of warranty, but one call to B&K later and my Dad was only out shipping for a fixed amplifier. They got the amp, fixed the switch, bench tested it, and sent it back within a week. Now that's some service.

Bryston is another great amp maker. Even you can't argue with this Mtry:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1143766671

No, I couldn't argue with that Bryston Bragging rights alone would be worth that price. When I upgrade from my boomboxes, I';ll have to see if one is still available to steal

Perhaps that Behringer 2500 should then go into a cabinet where the noise is better controlled? It is a powerhouse, and for that $300, it is hard to beat. Maybe not even by Bryston.

Yes, those amps of yesterday are something, even today. Must really be a Timex

 

[PENG]

That's why we are still buds even though we banged heads in the past

That's great! We'll always "bang heads" due to the nature of the beast, there are full of misconception and subjective matters in this business.

 

[pearsall001]

Then, by your account,As far as the Ferarri & Toyota go the Toyota blows the Ferarri out of the water!!! The one spec that's important to me is - gas mileage.

you must have tested that Ferrari extensively, measured a number of tankfuls to get a good idea of mileage, and the same with the Toyota, right? Be very careful[/QUOTE]


Sometimes common sense & practical logic will provide the same accurate outcome as a binder full of specs.

 

[ruadmaa]

Sorry For The Sarcasm

whats up with the sarcasm it obviously bothers you that i related my own personal experiences with klipschorns,i gave plator sound advice based on my experience & reccomended an amp well within his budget,please explain why you feel i gave bad advice.

you referenced my mc 1201 monoblocks from my main rig,i never suggested that plator go out & buy a pair but you felt the need to mention them anyways,whats up with that,is that supposed to make me feel ashamed because i have expensive gear or stupid because i overpaid,whats the connection?

i dont have a clue as to what your deal is.

Klipschorn speakers require very little power. A full sized Klipschorn speaker has no paper drivers and is fully horn loaded. I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this statement, but I fully believe that all competently designed amps sound the same (if they are not turned on so loud they are clipping). Below are some specs listed for a fully horn loaded Klipschorn speaker. They recommend no more than 100 wpc max continuous with no more than 400 watts peak.

Sensitivity: 104dB/w/m
Bandwidth: 35Hz – 17.5kHz +/- 3dB
Crossover Frequencies: 400Hz and 6kHz
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Output: 124dB maximum continuous
Power Handling: 100 watts maximum continuous (400 watts peak)
Configuration: Fully horn-loaded, three-way system
Driver Components: K77-M 1" Phenolec tweeter, K55-M 2" Phenolec midrange, K33-E
15" folded-horn woofer
Weight: 167 lbs. (75.7kg)
Dimensions: 52" × 31.25" × 28.5" (HxWxD)

I'm sure you and many others will howl and scream at my all amps sound the same statement but that is perhaps best handled in a thread all its' own.

Sorry for my previous post, no offense intended.

 

[rollinrocker]

Then, by your account,As far as the Ferarri & Toyota go the Toyota blows the Ferarri out of the water!!! The one spec that's important to me is - gas mileage.

Now for some reason this doesn't shock me!!!

 

[highfihoney]

Klipschorn speakers require very little power. A full sized Klipschorn speaker has no paper drivers and is fully horn loaded. I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this statement, but I fully believe that all competently designed amps sound the same (if they are not turned on so loud they are clipping). Below are some specs listed for a fully horn loaded Klipschorn speaker. They recommend no more than 100 wpc max continuous with no more than 400 watts peak.

Sensitivity: 104dB/w/m
Bandwidth: 35Hz – 17.5kHz +/- 3dB
Crossover Frequencies: 400Hz and 6kHz
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Output: 124dB maximum continuous
Power Handling: 100 watts maximum continuous (400 watts peak)
Configuration: Fully horn-loaded, three-way system
Driver Components: K77-M 1" Phenolec tweeter, K55-M 2" Phenolec midrange, K33-E
15" folded-horn woofer
Weight: 167 lbs. (75.7kg)
Dimensions: 52" × 31.25" × 28.5" (HxWxD)

I'm sure you and many others will howl and scream at my all amps sound the same statement but that is perhaps best handled in a thread all its' own.

Sorry for my previous post, no offense intended.

klipschorns do infact have a 15 inch paper woofer.

a folded horn is not what it sounds like,inside of a khorn is a complicated set of wooden baffels that a 15 inch paper woofer mounts directly to with no cut out for the front of the woofer(folded horn)the bass reverberates throught the bottom of the cabinet & into the floor,they are designed to be placed in corners to maximize bass response.

there is a standard horn used for the midrange & also the tweeter but the folded horn for the bass is made from wood & powered with a paper driver,the same folded horn design is used in the lascalla & belle & they all use paper woofers.

when you take apart any older model klipsch heritage speaker like a khorn, lascalla, cornwall or heresy its evident why they can handel so much more power than what they are rated for, their crossovers have caps larger than alot of modern day amplifiers & the woofers they used were built like tanks,these designs are way over built in every way.

your right that khorns were designed to play loud with very little power & they will play loud with any amplifier but in order to get that big ole woofer to move it takes alot of power, the more power you can throw at a khorn the better the bass response they give, the difference in overall loudness between a 100 watt amp & a 200 watt amp is more noticed in the bass response as oposed to spl's, double the power does not equal double the volume with any speaker.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Sometimes common sense & practical logic will provide the same accurate outcome as a binder full of specs.

Ah, common sense and perhaps other sources? Like CR, etc?
Common sense has to come from someplace and based on some evidence arrived by others perhaps? Without prior knowledge of Toyota and Ferrari, common sense would be null and void as there would be nothing to derive data.

 

[MacManNM]

Ah, common sense and perhaps other sources? Like CR, etc?
Common sense has to come from someplace and based on some evidence arrived by others perhaps? Without prior knowledge of Toyota and Ferrari, common sense would be null and void as there would be nothing to derive data.

You rely on CR as a source of information on audio? Are you serious?

 

[pearsall001]

Ah, common sense and perhaps other sources? Like CR, etc?
Common sense has to come from someplace and based on some evidence arrived by others perhaps? Without prior knowledge of Toyota and Ferrari, common sense would be null and void as there would be nothing to derive data.

At least CR actually has the product they are testing. They don't rattle off recomendation's based solely on a manuf. specs & try to tell us how well it should perform according to those specs. As far as their audio reviews go, it looks like your stuck shopping at K-MART for your stereo gear because that's about their premium level that they review.

 

[highfihoney]

They don't rattle off recomendation's based solely on a manuf. specs & try to tell us how well it should perform according to those specs.

i also think this is a very bad way to reccomend gear & leads alot of newbee's to think their going to get the same performance out of all amplifiers which simply is not true.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You rely on CR as a source of information on audio? Are you serious?

Actually, not totally, but CR is a great place to get reliability info as they survey 10 of thousands, so it is statistically valid. Besides, they don't review components discussed here, not many. And, the ones they do, yes, I would trust their recommendations. But, the posters comments went beyond audio, so my purpose was mostly his insinuation of having first hand experience before opining or commenting on something, right? I comment on lots of things without having first hand experience which is way overrated in the first place.

My first hand experience in sticking a steel pipe in a bucket of water would indicate that the water bends it and the air bends it back to the original shape. But I know better from other sources without reinventing the wheel for myself.

 

[mtrycrafts]

At least CR actually has the product they are testing. They don't rattle off recomendation's based solely on a manuf. specs & try to tell us how well it should perform according to those specs. As far as their audio reviews go, it looks like your stuck shopping at K-MART for your stereo gear because that's about their premium level that they review.

But, if I remember, you commented about having first hand experience, no? Do you ever recommend anything reviewed in CR? If so, YOU don't have that first hand experience, right? This is what you objected so vehemently, didn't you? I am just making a point how much first hand experience is overrated, especially when that experience is unreliable. Marketeers just love such testimonials to peddle products.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...& leads alot of newbee's to think their going to get the same performance out of all amplifiers which simply is not true.

You may be misunderstanding what is posted here about amps as I bet you will not see a post that claims ALL amps perform the same. That is a challenge for you to find that post. One only has to look at SETs

Reading between the lines is dangerous at times.

 

[highfihoney]

I comment on lots of things without having first hand experience which is way overrated in the first place.

by your own methodology pertaining to audio in order for that statement to be true you would have needed to verify in person that first hand experience is over rated.