Need Amplifier Recommendation for Speakers

[highfihoney]

You may be misunderstanding what is posted here about amps as I bet you will not see a post that claims ALL amps perform the same. That is a challenge for you to find that post. One only has to look at SETs

Reading between the lines is dangerous at times.

your right about set amp's & your also right about reading between the line's being dangerous & that's what i disagree with.

i do agree that when using amplifiers of like specification's & with all level's matched that it would be extremely hard if not impossible in a dbt to tell the difference between the different amp's but that is a very dangerous test to base a purchasing decision on if performance is an issue,there isnt very many gear owners who do not drive their gear to its limits even though they may not know it especially when using the amps for home theater.

here is what i mainly disagree with,when you post in threads that all amps sound the same it gives newbee's the impression that sounding the same & performing the same are one in the same which they are not.

most specs are based on dummy loads which do not apply to real world demands & some manufacturers chose to either over rate their gear or even under rate their gear,this thread is an excellent case in point with the klipschorns,you can read the specs for a week & still not know how overly built & under rated the speakers are,the specs also do not tell the truth when it comes to real world power handeling.

being that khorns are extremely under rated/over built & that recomendations for amplification have been given by some people based soley on specs in my oponion the advice given is bad advice,this is where first hand knowledge comes into play, without first hand knowledge of what a khorn is capable of there is no way to get them to perform to their maximum capability by reading the specs supplied from klipsch.

 

[PENG]

your right about set amp's & your also right about reading between the line's being dangerous & that's what i disagree with.

i do agree that when using amplifiers of like specification's & with all level's matched that it would be extremely hard if not impossible in a dbt to tell the difference between the different amp's but that is a very dangerous test to base a purchasing decision on if performance is an issue,there isnt very many gear owners who do not drive their gear to its limits even though they may not know it especially when using the amps for home theater.

I have listened to enough amps to easily agree with the first part of your statement. As to the second part, I am not so sure if there are many who do drive their gear to their limits. Surely there are some who own speakers with low sensitivity and/or impedance lower than 8 ohms nominal and have their gear in a large room, but "very many"? I am not sure.

Measurements I took with my 87dB, 8 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum speakers show that it will ne next to impossible for me to drive my amp anywhere near its limit. Don't forget for home theater applications, most people have a powered subwoofer.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.
i do agree that when using amplifiers of like specification's & with all level's matched that it would be extremely hard if not impossible in a dbt to tell the difference between the different amp's but that is a very dangerous test to base a purchasing decision on if performance is an issue,there isnt very many gear owners who do not drive their gear to its limits even though they may not know it especially when using the amps for home theater.

Peng responded aptly to this. But if I may add some other considerations. I doubt anyone is stating that if you have a difficult load, or you are the person who drives their gear knowingly at its limits constantly, your amp needs are such that would meet such a extreme need. I wonder if you surveyed all the audio gear owners to assume that most do drive it to the limits and beyond, or, just think this. I cannot agree with you on this, and I think that is allowed to do

What you will see being posted mostly, is a speaker drives the needs and the listening habits of the user, room size, distance to the listening position.

Or, if one's preferences are the driving force, not a perceived need.

here is what i mainly disagree with,when you post in threads that all amps sound the same

But, you see, I don't post this, you assume this is what is posted; you see what you want to read. I just gave you the SET that they don't sound the same, of when you exceed their design limits. Unfortunately, many make testable claims with no supporting evidence. I take exceptions to them.


it gives newbee's the impression that sounding the same & performing the same are one in the same which they are not.


I am not sure about how this may be interpreted, even by new members as we usually ask enough questions to properly respond.

most specs are based on dummy loads which do not apply to real world demands & some manufacturers chose to either over rate their gear or even under rate their gear,

But, DBT data is from real world conditions, not dummy loads So, in the end, it is moot. And, third party specs are looked to for what reliable specs are.


this thread is an excellent case in point with the klipschorns,you can read the specs for a week & still not know how overly built & under rated the speakers are,the specs also do not tell the truth when it comes to real world power handeling.

I wonder how the maker arrived at its impedance and sensitivity? Actually, if the sensitivity is from an anechoic chamber run, it is under rated from real world as room gain is excluded, about 4dB. That is a lot of power. And, if Stereopile measured the impedance, it would be over the whole frequency range



[/b]being that khorns are extremely under rated/over built & that recomendations for amplification have been given by some people based soley on specs in my oponion the advice given is bad advice,this is where first hand knowledge comes into play, without first hand knowledge of what a khorn is capable of there is no way to get them to perform to their maximum capability by reading the specs supplied from klipsch.[/b]

Under rated? You mean they are under the specs? If they are over the specs, then the recommendations are conservative, no?
And, one should ask then how that first hand knowledge came by? Just listening? No instrument measurements? The, it is unreliable and useless.

Just because it is first hand doesn't mean it is reliable, does it.

You may want to read this DBT:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0


3 audiophiles flunked. I would think that these two amps had way different DF???

 

[highfihoney]

Measurements I took with my 87dB, 8 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum speakers show that it will ne next to impossible for me to drive my amp anywhere near its limit.

please explain further the measurements you took to determine what power was being drawn from your amp's.

 

[PENG]

please explain further the measurements you took to determine what power was being drawn from your amp's.

I used instruments that could measure quite accurately voltages and currents between 40 to 1000 Hz. I know it wasn't the best way to do it and the results were not totally accurate but it gave me a pretty good indication without having to borrow an oscilloscope and other gear. When the bass drum produced 96 dB at 2 meters away, the output current was just a little over 3A. The impedance at that point could be anywhere between 4 to 8 ohms.

Anyway, I agree there are people who drive their gear to their limits, especially those who own hard to drive speakers in large rooms. I just don't think there are too many of them.

 

[highfihoney]

mytry,sorry for the slow response but i did not have time to read your link before i left for work so im responding now that im home & have read your link.

I wonder if you surveyed all the audio gear owners to assume that most do drive it to the limits and beyond, or, just think this. I cannot agree with you on this, and I think that is allowed to do

highfihoney

i have done no survey but i know gear & i will qualify my statement the best i can ,without an effective way to meter & gauge wattage output how can any system owner be assured that their amplifiers are being driven within their specified output rating especially when the amplifiers are closely matched in output power with the speakers recomended input?

for instance a heavy bass track or organ track can take a 100 wpc amp thats pushing 25 watts steady close to or actually into clipping levels for a brief period & unless the sound is so bad that its easily noticed it goes unchecked,my statement is based on most owners wanting maximum performance out of their gear & im guilty of it too

But, DBT data is from real world conditions, not dummy loads So, in the end, it is moot. And, third party specs are looked to for what reliable specs are.

highfihoney

how does a dbt test apply when recomending an amplifier for a specific speaker,i am not & have never been in disagreement with you that dbt tests are taken from real world conditions, i disagree that dbt tests have any value when matching an amplifier with a speaker or making a recomendation with dbt test data as part of the basis for a recomendation.


this thread is an excellent case in point with the klipschorns,you can read the specs for a week & still not know how overly built & under rated the speakers are,the specs also do not tell the truth when it comes to real world power handeling.

I wonder how the maker arrived at its impedance and sensitivity? Actually, if the sensitivity is from an anechoic chamber run, it is under rated from real world as room gain is excluded, about 4dB. That is a lot of power. And, if Stereopile measured the impedance, it would be over the whole frequency range

highfihoney

i wouldnt begin to know how klipsch derived any of their published info on that speaker but i do know from experience that it is not accurate


[/b]being that khorns are extremely under rated/over built & that recomendations for amplification have been given by some people based soley on specs in my oponion the advice given is bad advice,this is where first hand knowledge comes into play, without first hand knowledge of what a khorn is capable of there is no way to get them to perform to their maximum capability by reading the specs supplied from klipsch.[/b]

[quote-mytrycrafts]

Under rated? You mean they are under the specs? If they are over the specs, then the recommendations are conservative, no?
And, one should ask then how that first hand knowledge came by? Just listening? No instrument measurements? The, it is unreliable and useless.

highfihoney

the published specs for all klipsch heritage speakers are extremely conservative to say the least,the first hand knowledge was learned by my running amplifiers with the ability to accurately measure & show true output wattage & with the ability to show when the speaker starts to distort above 0.005% distortion levels,this information is extremely accurate & reliable.

Just because it is first hand doesn't mean it is reliable, does it.

highfihoney

quite the contrary,my first hand information extremely reliable & is is based on results from gear that is atleast as accurate(if not more accurate) as any lab instruments used to measure wattage & distortion levels,these measurements have been shown & proven to be highly accurate.

highfihoney

i tried to quote your statements in order of my answers to them so im not sure how this post is going to look,hopefully it turns out to be a readable post,i still need to learn how to use the system here better to use quotes the right way.

 

[highfihoney]

I used instruments that could measure quite accurately voltages and currents between 40 to 1000 Hz. I know it wasn't the best way to do it and the results were not totally accurate but it gave me a pretty good indication without having to borrow an oscilloscope and other gear. When the bass drum produced 96 dB at 2 meters away, the current was just a little over 3A. The impedance at that point could be anywhere between 4 to 8 ohms.

Anyway, I agree there are people who drive their gear to their limits, especially those who own hard to drive speakers in large rooms. I just don't think there are too many of them.

hi peng,i wasnt asking so i could refute your testing methods im just curious as to how other guys measure the response from their systems,its nice to know im not the only boob who actually measures their rigs response

 

[mtrycrafts]

by your own methodology pertaining to audio in order for that statement to be true you would have needed to verify in person that first hand experience is over rated.

I just have to read some of the posts here and elsewhere. It is most obvious how overrated it is.