Masimo/Sound United Dealer Portal now says “HARMAN”

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yamaha has the "depth" that most of their competitors in audio just don't have, so I bet they knew full well that in HT, AVRs are going to outsell AVPs by a significant ratio, and since they have been capable of making the so called jammed pack AVRs performing well and reliably for years, why would they bother investing in AVPs that they knew wouldn't be that profitable or profitable at all. If you studied their published service manuals (as I have done), you will see that the CX5000 series are virtually the RX-A3000 series AVR without the power amp section and balanced I/O circuitry. If you compared measurements done by Gene, one will also see that the chance of the CX-A5000 series will sound the same as the RX-A3000 series if the same external power amps are used. It is a huge myth that AVPs will sound superior just because they are "separate", even it that is true, and in some cases I don't doubt that could be true to a point, it would only because some AVRs just don't pay enough attention to the build in amps enough, e.g. Anthem, NAD and yes some Yamaha's too, based on bench measurements.

Yeah I keep remembering the "90%" sales number @M Code said regarding the sales of AVR vs separates. With AVR making up 90% of the audio market sales, which means about 10% sales make up the separates (AVP + AVR + Integrated Amps), I am wondering why any company would bother with AVPs + Amps?

Unless the AVPs/Separates somehow indirectly "drive" or "promote" the sales of AVRs? Some people may feel that Separates make the company "high-end" and that their AVRs will also be high-end like their AVPs?

Personally, even though I think the Yamaha RX-A8A will sound identical to a Yamaha AVP, I would just FEEL better or happier knowing that I own a Yamaha AVP.

And perhaps a lot of people also feel the same as I do.

The "FEELING" of owning separates just gives me that "warm fuzzy feeling".

That's the reason I just got two Bryston 9B-cubed. Although I still love the Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp, I love the Bryston amps more.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am not and they will. Active speakers will be handy, give improved performance and reduce the overall cost of systems. You are an old cantankerous "stick in the mud" and resist change and progress. Those are not good attributes.

I'm going to refrain from calling you names, which is very easy to do. So I urge you to stop labeling or calling people names. Just state your case.

Show us some proofs or examples of signs that companies are moving toward INTERALLY-powered speakers?

You see B&W, Revel, KEF, Focal, Paradigm, Dynaudio, Martin-Logan, RBH, and all the big brands moving toward internally-powered speakers?

I love RBH. Some of their HIGH-END FLAGSHIPS are available as ACTIVE, but the amps/DSP are EXTERNAL.

The 100% active Linkiwitz Orion was made a long, long time ago and the amps/DSP are EXTENAL.

NHT had a little active speaker system about 30 years ago, and the amp/DSP was also EXTERNAL.

Legacy Audio has some internally-powered speakers, but they are very expensive - like $20K, which most people can't afford.

So don't tell me that $20K powered speakers are going to SAVE people money in the long-run.

Yes, there are some "affordable" internally-powered speakers from RBH and other brands, but they are generally twice the cost of similar passive speakers.

Please give ALL OF US examples of the signs that all these speaker companies moving towards internally-powered speakers.

It's cool you think all speakers should be internally powered.

But Don't talk about what YOU think SHOULD happen. Just stick to the FACTS and talk about what is happening or has been happening.

Another thing. I've been CALLING YOU OUT on this subject many times and you chose to IGNORE it. Why do you say that having more amps inside AVR is bad, but turn around and say that having more amps inside speakers is GOOD?

Are you saying that having FOUR AMPS INSIDE EACH SPEAKER is better than having the amps inside the AVR?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey, Stick in the mud! I mean Andrew! Lol ya ole Stick in the mud! speaking of "Stick in the Mud. That's exactly what we used to call a platform in the Gulf. It's a single deck unmanned production platform usually one or two wells on it, gas or oil.

TLS Guy just loves to call people NAMES like "Stick in the mud", doesn't he?

So if I were Native American (hey, I do live in OKLAHOMA you know ), my name would be "Stick in the Mud"?

 

[PENG]

Yeah I keep remembering the "90%" sales number @M Code said regarding the sales of AVR vs separates. With AVR making up 90% of the audio market sales, which means about 10% sales make up the separates (AVP + AVR + Integrated Amps), I am wondering why any company would bother with AVPs + Amps?

Because they know that 10-20% of the total sales can still be profitable, especially the smart ones like Yamaha, Onkyo and Marantz, who managed to keep the cost down by adapting their AVPs from their AVRs, much more so Yamaha because they only skip the power amp section and the balanced connections, keeping everything else mostly the same.

Unless the AVPs/Separates somehow indirectly "drive" or "promote" the sales of AVRs? Some people may feel that Separates make the company "high-end" and that their AVRs will also be high-end like their AVPs?

I think that's the other main reasons, somewhat we respect the brands that also make AVPs, just look at D+M, how come people now think Marantz is the high end brand of D+M, when in reality the opposite should be true based on the two companies history, who made the world's fully balanced AVP first, and turntables, cartridges, exotic integrated amps, its Denon!, but they decided to keep Marantz AVP so people's perception changed, though it was rooted by the small group of audiophiles who belief in Marantz's marketing warm sound did come from the old days so they had the base to begin with and that helped.

Personally, even though I think the Yamaha RX-A8A will sound identical to a Yamaha AVP, I would just FEEL better or happier knowing that I own a Yamaha AVP.

Me too, but that's because I don't mind spending more, and always (and still do) like all kinds of power amps, if I were to downside, I would most certainly sell everything and then pick up an AVR for my old age enjoyment.

For the new comers, if on a budget, I think it is a good way to start by investing on a midrange AVR such as the RX-A6A, AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50, Onkyo RZ30, kind of deal and add a 3 channel poweramp like buckeyeamps and they will get 90% of the performance of a top notch AVP+multichannel power amp, based on the popular 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 setup. Just forget about the presumed longer life of AVPs in that case, instead, just prepare for an upgrade every 5-7 years.

The "FEELING" of owning separates just gives me that "warm fuzzy feeling".

Absolutely, it is less about sound quality and reliability, but the feeling.

That's the reason I just got two Bryston 9B-cubed. Although I still love the Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp, I love the Bryston amps more.




[/QUOTE]

Oh I missed my 4B SST and Halo A21, not about their sound quality, but again, the feeling from owning them. I am actually considering getting a McIntosh amp too but hard to decide which one, there are so many models. There are amps with better specs and measurements but most of them don't look as good as Mc's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like when you go to The Ponderosa Steak House and order sushi ...

Ain't no Hop Sing in the kitchen.

Yeah, let's order some powered-speakers in a restaurant that sells only passive-speakers.

It seems like most (~90%) speaker companies only sell passive speakers. And even with those 10% companies who offer active speakers (like RBH), 90% of those active speakers have external amps/DSP.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Because they know that 10-20% of the total sales can still be profitable, especially the smart ones like Yamaha, Onkyo and Marantz, who managed to keep the cost down by adapting their AVPs from their AVRs, much more so Yamaha because they only skip the power amp section and the balanced connections, keeping everything else mostly the same.

I think that's the other main reasons, somewhat we respect the brands that also make AVPs, just look at D+M, how come people now think Marantz is the high end brand of D+M, when in reality the opposite should be true based on the two companies history, who made the world's fully balanced AVP first, and turntables, cartridges, exotic integrated amps, its Denon!, but they decided to keep Marantz AVP so people's perception changed, though it was rooted by the small group of audiophiles who belief in Marantz's marketing warm sound did come from the old days so they had the base to begin with and that helped.

Me too, but that's because I don't mind spending more, and always (and still do) like all kinds of power amps, if I were to downside, I would most certainly sell everything and then pick up an AVR for my old age enjoyment.

For the new comers, if on a budget, I think it is a good way to start by investing on a midrange AVR such as the RX-A6A, AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50, Onkyo RZ30, kind of deal and add a 3 channel poweramp like buckeyeamps and they will get 90% of the performance of a top notch AVP+multichannel power amp, based on the popular 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 setup. Just forget about the presumed longer life of AVPs in that case, instead, just prepare for an upgrade every 5-7 years.

Absolutely, it is less about sound quality and reliability, but the feeling.

Oh I missed my 4B SST and Halo A21, not about their sound quality, but again, the feeling from owning them. I am actually considering getting a McIntosh amp too but hard to decide which one, there are so many models. There are amps with better specs and measurements but most of them don't look as good as Mc's.

I think after being in this hobby for so many years and WORKING HARD ALL OUR LIVES, we DESERVE it.

Some people just forget that this is a HOBBY. We love this stuff. It's not just about being pragmatic or cost-effective.

After working hard in our careers, we deserve it.

"Welcome to Your Life" and "If It Makes You Happy, It Can't Be That Bad". LD

 

[Mark E. Long]

Following more the HDI line with fancy finish?

More like there synthesis line from the looks of the cabs and drivers . Very high dollar like most of these high dollar lines huge in the Asian market .

 

[highfigh]

Harman was once prestigious... it is a long time since Harman-Kardon put out high performance equipment.

Most of the products issued recently under "Harman" are best described as "lifestyle"

Revel has a reputation, Denon and Marantz have a reputation, JBL... Harman has withered on the vine, along with Lexicon, and others.

No one under 30 will remember Harman as a brand name of any import... although they may know it as a corporate conglomerate owning some interesting brands.

Are you referring to Harman Kardon? They had some good stereo equipment, but a lot of the early stereo receivers had problems- the 330C was due to the 330A and 330B blew up so often. Some of the early AV receivers sounded great, but ran too hot to survive when people weren't careful about ventilation. Not much was memorable, really- most dealers picked brands that sold better.

If they use the Lexicon name to sell AVRs, that would be a mistake but the reality is that brand was known for time-based pro/recording equipment and that stuff is all available as a plug-in for recording and live performance programs.

Do you look at the pro side of these brands? JBL is still strong in that industry.

 

[highfigh]

True, but pianos are not electronics and Steinway has always "eaten their lunch."

Seriously? You need to look at their (Yamaha) products and who uses them. The Classical world ISN'T the whole picture.

 

[highfigh]

Red Lobster at least use to be the most popular seafood restaurant, probably meaning they were the biggest money maker. That doesn't mean they had the best seafood.

Now does it make sense?

If it was good food , they wouldn't be called 'Dead Lobster'.

 

[lovinthehd]

More like there synthesis line from the looks of the cabs and drivers . Very high dollar like most of these high dollar lines huge in the Asian market .

Is there a great difference in Synthesis to HDI lines? Or more marketing?

 

[everettT]

Is there a great difference in Synthesis to HDI lines? Or more marketing?

Without hearing them I do like the inclusion of a midwoofer. Never been a fan of one large woofer playing up around and slightly above1khz, even though JBL has had success with it. Have to imagine that it gives more design flexibility.

 

[dlaloum]

For sure, but it is the level of talent and craftsmanship I am referring to.

Because they know that 10-20% of the total sales can still be profitable, especially the smart ones like Yamaha, Onkyo and Marantz, who managed to keep the cost down by adapting their AVPs from their AVRs, much more so Yamaha because they only skip the power amp section and the balanced connections, keeping everything else mostly the same.



I think that's the other main reasons, somewhat we respect the brands that also make AVPs, just look at D+M, how come people now think Marantz is the high end brand of D+M, when in reality the opposite should be true based on the two companies history, who made the world's fully balanced AVP first, and turntables, cartridges, exotic integrated amps, its Denon!, but they decided to keep Marantz AVP so people's perception changed, though it was rooted by the small group of audiophiles who belief in Marantz's marketing warm sound did come from the old days so they had the base to begin with and that helped.



Me too, but that's because I don't mind spending more, and always (and still do) like all kinds of power amps, if I were to downside, I would most certainly sell everything and then pick up an AVR for my old age enjoyment.

For the new comers, if on a budget, I think it is a good way to start by investing on a midrange AVR such as the RX-A6A, AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50, Onkyo RZ30, kind of deal and add a 3 channel poweramp like buckeyeamps and they will get 90% of the performance of a top notch AVP+multichannel power amp, based on the popular 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 setup. Just forget about the presumed longer life of AVPs in that case, instead, just prepare for an upgrade every 5-7 years.



Absolutely, it is less about sound quality and reliability, but the feeling.

That's the reason I just got two Bryston 9B-cubed. Although I still love the Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp, I love the Bryston amps more.

Oh I missed my 4B SST and Halo A21, not about their sound quality, but again, the feeling from owning them. I am actually considering getting a McIntosh amp too but hard to decide which one, there are so many models. There are amps with better specs and measurements but most of them don't look as good as Mc's.
[/QUOTE]

Back in the olden days (around 10 years ago) the Onkyo AVP's had the same circuit boards as the Onkyo AVR's, the space occupied by the power amps was filled by an XLR output circuit board.
The XLR outputs (balanced?) were the only difference - and the published service manuals make it clear that everything else was shared!

Earlier, there was a premium charged for the AVP's (15years ago)... but later (10 years) ago, from memory, the AVP's were around the same price as the AVR's... which possibly implies they had higher margins on them.

During the initial launch phase of the current series about 3 years ago, some certification lists for WiFi and DTS-PlayFi came to light, and in those listings there were in addition to the current released models, a couple of more upmarket AVR's and a couple of AVP's... to be listed on those certification listings, they would have had to send engineering samples to be tested as compliant - so actual hardware was built, but those models were never released. ( )
We can hope that perhaps a Dirac ART launch for Onkyo might provide the right marketing impetus to launch their true flagship models.... (RZ90 & AVP equivalent)

 

[dlaloum]

Are you referring to Harman Kardon? They had some good stereo equipment, but a lot of the early stereo receivers had problems- the 330C was due to the 330A and 330B blew up so often. Some of the early AV receivers sounded great, but ran too hot to survive when people weren't careful about ventilation. Not much was memorable, really- most dealers picked brands that sold better.

If they use the Lexicon name to sell AVRs, that would be a mistake but the reality is that brand was known for time-based pro/recording equipment and that stuff is all available as a plug-in for recording and live performance programs.

Do you look at the pro side of these brands? JBL is still strong in that industry.

My field of vision is going back further - Harman Kardon in the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's had some seriously high end gear.... mostly before the days of AV, Citation II and Citation V "tube" amps, Matti Otalla's cost no object Citation XX amp

Harman/Kardon Citation XX on thevintageknob.org

vintage 1980 h/k Citation XX reference power amplifier

www.thevintageknob.org

By the time you get to the start of this millenium, Harman as a premium brand was history... it was just a corporate umbrella.

Lexicon was a world leader in surround processing... until Harman bought them, used their tech in a generation of quite decent AVR's (7550HD), and then watered it down to nothing, and got rid of that development team, switching over to Arcam as their main team.

Harman have JBL as their premium brand now, along with Revel...

 

[dlaloum]

Is there a great difference in Synthesis to HDI lines? Or more marketing?

The base Synthesis AVR's/AVP's are based on the Arcam hardware, with the addition of built in rather than optional Dirac, and the inclusion of the Lexicon developed Logic7/Logic16 process (in a dumbed down version sadly)

Most recently they released a new Flagship synthesis processor, by basically rebranding/licencing a Trinnov unit.

The speakers are still JBL's own... and JBL are continuing their long lineage particularly in the pro area, but also in the Audiophile/Videophile space.

 

[everettT]

the inclusion of the Lexicon developed Logic7/Logic16 process (in a dumbed down version sadly)

I loved the Logic 7 in my BMW, it was a pleasure. The current Revel system is great, but not the same level of processing.