Masimo/Sound United Dealer Portal now says “HARMAN”

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yamaha has the "depth" that most of their competitors in audio just don't have, so I bet they knew full well that in HT, AVRs are going to outsell AVPs by a significant ratio, and since they have been capable of making the so called jammed pack AVRs performing well and reliably for years, why would they bother investing in AVPs that they knew wouldn't be that profitable or profitable at all. If you studied their published service manuals (as I have done), you will see that the CX5000 series are virtually the RX-A3000 series AVR without the power amp section and balanced I/O circuitry. If you compared measurements done by Gene, one will also see that the chance of the CX-A5000 series will sound the same as the RX-A3000 series if the same external power amps are used. It is a huge myth that AVPs will sound superior just because they are "separate", even it that is true, and in some cases I don't doubt that could be true to a point, it would only because some AVRs just don't pay enough attention to the build in amps enough, e.g. Anthem, NAD and yes some Yamaha's too, based on bench measurements.
Yeah I keep remembering the "90%" sales number @M Code said regarding the sales of AVR vs separates. With AVR making up 90% of the audio market sales, which means about 10% sales make up the separates (AVP + AVR + Integrated Amps), I am wondering why any company would bother with AVPs + Amps? :D

Unless the AVPs/Separates somehow indirectly "drive" or "promote" the sales of AVRs? Some people may feel that Separates make the company "high-end" and that their AVRs will also be high-end like their AVPs?

Personally, even though I think the Yamaha RX-A8A will sound identical to a Yamaha AVP, I would just FEEL better or happier knowing that I own a Yamaha AVP. :D

And perhaps a lot of people also feel the same as I do.

The "FEELING" of owning separates just gives me that "warm fuzzy feeling".

That's the reason I just got two Bryston 9B-cubed. Although I still love the Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp, I love the Bryston amps more. :D



 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I am not and they will. Active speakers will be handy, give improved performance and reduce the overall cost of systems. You are an old cantankerous "stick in the mud" and resist change and progress. Those are not good attributes.
I'm going to refrain from calling you names, which is very easy to do. So I urge you to stop labeling or calling people names. Just state your case.

Show us some proofs or examples of signs that companies are moving toward INTERALLY-powered speakers?

You see B&W, Revel, KEF, Focal, Paradigm, Dynaudio, Martin-Logan, RBH, and all the big brands moving toward internally-powered speakers?

I love RBH. Some of their HIGH-END FLAGSHIPS are available as ACTIVE, but the amps/DSP are EXTERNAL.

The 100% active Linkiwitz Orion was made a long, long time ago and the amps/DSP are EXTENAL.

NHT had a little active speaker system about 30 years ago, and the amp/DSP was also EXTERNAL.

Legacy Audio has some internally-powered speakers, but they are very expensive - like $20K, which most people can't afford.

So don't tell me that $20K powered speakers are going to SAVE people money in the long-run.

Yes, there are some "affordable" internally-powered speakers from RBH and other brands, but they are generally twice the cost of similar passive speakers.

Please give ALL OF US examples of the signs that all these speaker companies moving towards internally-powered speakers.

It's cool you think all speakers should be internally powered.

But Don't talk about what YOU think SHOULD happen. Just stick to the FACTS and talk about what is happening or has been happening.

Another thing. I've been CALLING YOU OUT on this subject many times and you chose to IGNORE it. Why do you say that having more amps inside AVR is bad, but turn around and say that having more amps inside speakers is GOOD?

Are you saying that having FOUR AMPS INSIDE EACH SPEAKER is better than having the amps inside the AVR?
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Hey, Stick in the mud! I mean Andrew! Lol ya ole Stick in the mud! :p speaking of "Stick in the Mud. That's exactly what we used to call a platform in the Gulf. It's a single deck unmanned production platform usually one or two wells on it, gas or oil.
TLS Guy just loves to call people NAMES like "Stick in the mud", doesn't he?

So if I were Native American (hey, I do live in OKLAHOMA you know :D), my name would be "Stick in the Mud"? :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah I keep remembering the "90%" sales number @M Code said regarding the sales of AVR vs separates. With AVR making up 90% of the audio market sales, which means about 10% sales make up the separates (AVP + AVR + Integrated Amps), I am wondering why any company would bother with AVPs + Amps? :D
Because they know that 10-20% of the total sales can still be profitable, especially the smart ones like Yamaha, Onkyo and Marantz, who managed to keep the cost down by adapting their AVPs from their AVRs, much more so Yamaha because they only skip the power amp section and the balanced connections, keeping everything else mostly the same.

Unless the AVPs/Separates somehow indirectly "drive" or "promote" the sales of AVRs? Some people may feel that Separates make the company "high-end" and that their AVRs will also be high-end like their AVPs?
I think that's the other main reasons, somewhat we respect the brands that also make AVPs, just look at D+M, how come people now think Marantz is the high end brand of D+M, when in reality the opposite should be true based on the two companies history, who made the world's fully balanced AVP first, and turntables, cartridges, exotic integrated amps, its Denon!, but they decided to keep Marantz AVP so people's perception changed, though it was rooted by the small group of audiophiles who belief in Marantz's marketing warm sound did come from the old days so they had the base to begin with and that helped.

Personally, even though I think the Yamaha RX-A8A will sound identical to a Yamaha AVP, I would just FEEL better or happier knowing that I own a Yamaha AVP. :D
Me too, but that's because I don't mind spending more, and always (and still do) like all kinds of power amps, if I were to downside, I would most certainly sell everything and then pick up an AVR for my old age enjoyment.

For the new comers, if on a budget, I think it is a good way to start by investing on a midrange AVR such as the RX-A6A, AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50, Onkyo RZ30, kind of deal and add a 3 channel poweramp like buckeyeamps and they will get 90% of the performance of a top notch AVP+multichannel power amp, based on the popular 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 setup. Just forget about the presumed longer life of AVPs in that case, instead, just prepare for an upgrade every 5-7 years.

The "FEELING" of owning separates just gives me that "warm fuzzy feeling".
Absolutely, it is less about sound quality and reliability, but the feeling.

That's the reason I just got two Bryston 9B-cubed. Although I still love the Yamaha MX-A5000 11Ch amp, I love the Bryston amps more. :D




[/QUOTE]

Oh I missed my 4B SST and Halo A21, not about their sound quality, but again, the feeling from owning them. I am actually considering getting a McIntosh amp too but hard to decide which one, there are so many models. There are amps with better specs and measurements but most of them don't look as good as Mc's.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Like when you go to The Ponderosa Steak House and order sushi ...

Ain't no Hop Sing in the kitchen.
Yeah, let's order some powered-speakers in a restaurant that sells only passive-speakers.

It seems like most (~90%) speaker companies only sell passive speakers. And even with those 10% companies who offer active speakers (like RBH), 90% of those active speakers have external amps/DSP.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Because they know that 10-20% of the total sales can still be profitable, especially the smart ones like Yamaha, Onkyo and Marantz, who managed to keep the cost down by adapting their AVPs from their AVRs, much more so Yamaha because they only skip the power amp section and the balanced connections, keeping everything else mostly the same.

I think that's the other main reasons, somewhat we respect the brands that also make AVPs, just look at D+M, how come people now think Marantz is the high end brand of D+M, when in reality the opposite should be true based on the two companies history, who made the world's fully balanced AVP first, and turntables, cartridges, exotic integrated amps, its Denon!, but they decided to keep Marantz AVP so people's perception changed, though it was rooted by the small group of audiophiles who belief in Marantz's marketing warm sound did come from the old days so they had the base to begin with and that helped.

Me too, but that's because I don't mind spending more, and always (and still do) like all kinds of power amps, if I were to downside, I would most certainly sell everything and then pick up an AVR for my old age enjoyment.

For the new comers, if on a budget, I think it is a good way to start by investing on a midrange AVR such as the RX-A6A, AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50, Onkyo RZ30, kind of deal and add a 3 channel poweramp like buckeyeamps and they will get 90% of the performance of a top notch AVP+multichannel power amp, based on the popular 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 setup. Just forget about the presumed longer life of AVPs in that case, instead, just prepare for an upgrade every 5-7 years.

Absolutely, it is less about sound quality and reliability, but the feeling.

Oh I missed my 4B SST and Halo A21, not about their sound quality, but again, the feeling from owning them. I am actually considering getting a McIntosh amp too but hard to decide which one, there are so many models. There are amps with better specs and measurements but most of them don't look as good as Mc's.
I think after being in this hobby for so many years and WORKING HARD ALL OUR LIVES, we DESERVE it. :D

Some people just forget that this is a HOBBY. We love this stuff. It's not just about being pragmatic or cost-effective.

After working hard in our careers, we deserve it.

"Welcome to Your Life" and "If It Makes You Happy, It Can't Be That Bad". LD
 
Mark E. Long

Mark E. Long

Audioholic Field Marshall
Following more the HDI line with fancy finish?
More like there synthesis line from the looks of the cabs and drivers . Very high dollar like most of these high dollar lines huge in the Asian market .
 
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