Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

[dlaloum]

People who actually need (or simply assume they need..)ACD capability regardless of the total number of channels should build their own and be sure to have the house wiring capable of delivering the juice and meeting local codes.

The vast majority (99% or more) of applications don't need such capability. Manufacturers are doing the right thing not implementing gigantic 150 lbs AVRs or amps just to keep a few people happy and force the added costs, real estate, and probably reinforced support structure, to 99% of the users who don't have such requirements.

Everyone knows that a "real" power amp requires its own seperate circuit to the substation, weighs at least 150lbs, and the speaker cables are as thick as your wrist... (and of course need to be run on little wooden raisers) - and that would be one channel - their presence in the room, means that even in the depths of an icy winter, no heating is needed for the listening room.... and in the Home theatre version, with 16 of these monoblocks surrounding your listening / viewing chair - you need to keep the aircon turned up full blast in the middle of winter, to keep yourself from being baked.... (Class A all the way of course! - the lights in the whole neighbourhood dim when you turn these babies on!)

 

[PENG]

Manufacturers are doing the right thing not implementing gigantic 150 lbs AVRs or amps

And here I was thinking you were a true Audioholic

Power amp manufacturers such as Passlab and Krell do offer both class A and AAB alternatives that allows them to limit weight to just below 150 lbs for 250 W or so, such as the KSA-250.

The Krell is actually not that expensive, dlaloum would probably benefit from its below 1 ohm drive capability.

Krell KSA-250 power amplifier Specifications

Sidebar 4: Specifications

www.stereophile.com

With a regulated AC voltage, the KSA-250 could probably be expected to put out 2kW into 1 ohm. Although Krell specifies a 4kW output rating in 0.5 ohms, I didn't have a half-ohm resistor that would handle such power.

That's excellent for only 140 lbs and for $5,700 (1991, so need to adjust for inflation).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

People who actually need (or simply assume they need..)ACD capability regardless of the total number of channels should build their own and be sure to have the house wiring capable of delivering the juice and meeting local codes.

The vast majority (99% or more) of applications don't need such capability. Manufacturers are doing the right thing not implementing gigantic 150 lbs AVRs or amps just to keep a few people happy and force the added costs, real estate, and probably reinforced support structure, to 99% of the users who don't have such requirements.

For 200W x 16Ch ACD, would you need two 20A circuits just for the amps and another 20A circuit for everything else?

 

[Danzilla31]

For 200W x 16Ch ACD, would you need two 20A circuits just for the amps and another 20A circuit for everything else?

This is AUDIOHOLICS buddy!!! We need at least six 20A circuits just to get started!!!!!

 

[PENG]

For 200W x 16Ch ACD, would you need two 20A circuits just for the amps and another 20A circuit for everything else?

For truly continuous duty, yes. What kind of crazy audiophile will drive all 16 channels to 200 W simultaneously and continuously, with tones? No movie contents or even demo tracks do such a silly thing right?

Regardless, if the amp uses a 4 kVA power supply, then the amp will likely come with 2×20A power cords.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For truly continuous duty, yes. What kind of crazy audiophile will drive all 16 channels to 200 W simultaneously and continuously, with tones? No movie contents or even demo tracks do such a silly thing right?

Regardless, if the amp uses a 4 kVA power supply, then the amp will likely come with 2×20A power cords.

This is AUDIOHOLICS buddy!!! We need at least six 20A circuits just to get started!!!!!

Actually I think that’s more like AVS forum where they need ugly big a$$ speakers as big as a house.

 

[Danzilla31]

Actually I think that’s more like AVS forum where they need ugly big a$$ speakers as big as a house.

We are so much more refined around here arent we?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We are so much more refined around here arent we?

Naturally

 

[Trell]

For truly continuous duty, yes. What kind of crazy audiophile will drive all 16 channels to 200 W simultaneously and continuously, with tones? No movie contents or even demo tracks do such a silly thing right?

Regardless, if the amp uses a 4 kVA power supply, then the amp will likely come with 2×20A power cords.

Using "All channels stereo" along with insensitive speakers listening to a drawn out flute solo?

 

[PENG]

Using "All channels stereo" along with insensitive speakers listening to a drawn out flute solo?

Exactly, all channel stereo in ADTG's example would mean 16 speakers playing a drawn out flute solo!! When I tried my 11 channel all stereo I couldn't listen to the elevated spl and had to turn volume down quickly. How much would 16 speakers output increase in spl vs 1 speaker? At least 12 dB I would think, so again, 99% of the population won't do such a thing, manufacturers will not, and should not, cater for those people who should find another way than forcing the 99% consumers to pay and subsidize their crazy need.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Exactly, all channel stereo in ADTG's example would mean 16 speakers playing a drawn out flute solo!! When I tried my 11 channel all stereo I couldn't listen to the elevated spl and had to turn volume down quickly. How much would 16 speakers output increase in spl vs 1 speaker? At least 12 dB I would think, so again, 99% of the population won't do such a thing, manufacturers will not, and should not, cater for those people who should find another way than forcing the 99% consumers to pay and subsidize their crazy need.

No matter often we say it, there will still be a few people everywhere who think they actually need All Channels Driven even for their little non-full-range speakers.

The Marantz AMP-10 at 226W x 7CH ACD 8-ohms is impressive.

My Yamaha CX-A5000 is 78W x 7CH ACD and my big 4-ohm speaker system in my 26’ x 22’ x 14’ room is doing great even at loud volume. So I know I don’t need more power for my speakers.

Now capable-subwoofer power is a whole different animal. Here you actually need some real power for movies like The Cloverfield Paradox, Moonfall, Dark Phoenix, TRON Legacy, Godzilla vs Kong, Underworld Awakening, and Top Gun Maverick - if you have capable subwoofers.

 

[multisport4me]

@gene or @PENG - stupid question but I cannot find an answer. I have an external DAC that can output 4V or 5V. Does it matter to the AV10 which I send the XLR input? I cannot find anything about it and Marantz tech support didn't know when I called them. I know 4V is generally the standard but there seem to be more and more DACs that output either 5V or have selectable 4/5V. I need one of you EE types explain it to me. Please?

 

[PENG]

@gene or @PENG - stupid question but I cannot find an answer. I have an external DAC that can output 4V or 5V. Does it matter to the AV10 which I send the XLR input? I cannot find anything about it and Marantz tech support didn't know when I called them. I know 4V is generally the standard but there seem to be more and more DACs that output either 5V or have selectable 4/5V. I need one of you EE types explain it to me. Please?

How much voltage you need, depends on many things such as the gain of your preamp, power amp, your speaker sensitivity, impedance, and your listening habit (that is, contents, and how loud you listen to) and your seating distance.

Having said that, 4 V balanced output should be high enough for most (probably >95% of the people). The reason why balanced need 4 V, that is double that of unbalanced output, is mainly because many power amps lowered the gain by about 6 dB if balanced inputs are used. I am not sure why they do it, but my guess is that they want the amp output level to remain the same whether you use balanced or unbalanced inputs. It seems to me more and more power amps are no longer following that standard, for example, the newer ATI, Parasound amps seem to keep the same, or approximately the same gain whether you use their unbalanced or balanced inputs.

My two Marantz power amps do have 6 dB lower gain if the XLR inputs are used, but they are the old class AB type. Your Amp10 is class D and is a new model, so I am not sure if it also lowers the gain by 6 dB for the XLR inputs, my guess is that it will, as that seems to be the standard Marantz would follow. In any case, 4 V (XLR/balanced) should be more than enough unless you listen very loud, sit far from the speakers and the speakers have very low sensitivity. The amp10's spec says gain is 29 dB, without specifying whether that's for unbalanced or balanced, but even if they lower it to 23 dB for balanced inputs, you will still get 400 W into 8 ohms, or 800 W into 4 ohms because you will get 2X the voltage from the AV10's XLR output vs their RCA outputs. The amp10 is only rated 200 W 8 ohms, 400 W 4 ohms, so you have plenty of reserve for use with a DAC that can output 4 V balanced.

Also, keep in mind the pre out voltage is not going to be that high most of the time, in my case they rarely go over 0.5 V (actually much lower), that's because music signals are not test tones, they vary in magnitude from 0 to less than 1 V on average most of the time, only peak to high voltage occasionally, depending on the contents you play.

 

[multisport4me]

Thanks Peng. So basically, I probably don't need any more than 4V but it won't hurt anything running 5V either. I just don't really need 5V in my setup, correct? Or would there be some advantages in slightly better dynamic range using 5V?

 

[Danzilla31]

Tanks Peng. So basically, I probably don't need any more than 4V but it won't hurt anything running 5V either. I just don't really need 5V in my setup, correct? Or would there be some advantages in slightly better dynamic range using 5V?

Didn't @gene measure that this pre pro can output up to 8volts clean? I think I saw that in the article. So I think your good the Marantz honestly should be able to drive just about anything. As @PENG mentioned I don't think most of us in real world usage will come close to ever driving our devices that high

 

[multisport4me]

Didn't @gene measure that this pre pro can output up to 8volts clean? I think I saw that in the article. So I think your good the Marantz honestly should be able to drive just about anything. As @PENG mentioned I don't think most of us in real world usage will come close to ever driving our devices that high

Thanks. Yea, Gene measured output and it can output a boat load of voltage. I'm talking about the XLR inputs. Typically, 4V has been the standard and I'm now seeing DACs that are either 5V or selectable between 4V or 5V output. I was wondering if I had the outboard DAC send 5V into the XLR input on AV10 if it would clip or something. Sounds to me that it won't matter much and Peng saying even if I just stick with 4V, I'm not likely to use it in my setup (AV10/AMP10s).

 

[PENG]

Thanks. Yea, Gene measured output and it can output a boat load of voltage. I'm talking about the XLR inputs. Typically, 4V has been the standard and I'm now seeing DACs that are either 5V or selectable between 4V or 5V output. I was wondering if I had the outboard DAC send 5V into the XLR input on AV10 if it would clip or something. Sounds to me that it won't matter much and Peng saying even if I just stick with 4V, I'm not likely to use it in my setup (AV10/AMP10s).

I wouldn't worry about clipping the AV10's volume IC at all. Marantz most likely is sticking with the same volume control IC they have been using since the AV7705, AV8805 and all the SR6011 through 15, Denon AVR-X3000, 4000, through 8000 series AVR. That volume IC can take input up to 4 V without any problem, but would probably be at or near its clipping point at a little below 5 V. You can download the datasheet and see it for yourself.

8-Channel Electronic Volume: Audio Signal Processing (nisshinbo-microdevices.co.jp)

That 5 V output for your dac is just the maximum, or rated output. I highly doubt it will exceed even 2 V from the unbalanced output, or 4 V from the balanced output for normal use. For your music listening, you would likely be dealing with less than 1 V or 0.1-0.5 V on average and may be up to 2 V during the rare peaks of some very dynamic contents. Well implemented DACs based on the flag ship ESS ICs may be offer a few dB SINAD higher, but as Gene said in one of his recent video, "Don't chase SINAD"!! Now if you are dealing with DACs that offer less than 90 dB SINAD, perhaps chasing it could be justifiable, but not when the one in the AV10 already an ESS IC that offers 120 dB SINAD and 127 dB SNR. In such scenario, the DAC chip is not the bottleneck anyway.

The AV10/AMP10 should be great, even if you use the build in DACs. Enjoy the music!

 

[PENG]

Didn't @gene measure that this pre pro can output up to 8volts clean? I think I saw that in the article. So I think your good the Marantz honestly should be able to drive just about anything. As @PENG mentioned I don't think most of us in real world usage will come close to ever driving our devices that high

He's talking about his DAC output, but basically same idea, same principles apply.

 

[PENG]

Thanks Peng. So basically, I probably don't need any more than 4V but it won't hurt anything running 5V either. I just don't really need 5V in my setup, correct? Or would there be some advantages in slightly better dynamic range using 5V?

More/higher is typically better, but you will never benefit from that in practical term. It's like having 10 billion dollars in the bank that you can withdraw any time, when you know you will never need to spend more than 10 millions for the rest of your life time.

 

[multisport4me]

I wouldn't worry about clipping the AV10's volume IC at all. Marantz most likely is sticking with the same volume control IC they have been using since the AV7705, AV8805 and all the SR6011 through 15, Denon AVR-X3000, 4000, through 8000 series AVR. That volume IC can take input up to 4 V without any problem, but would probably be at or near its clipping point at a little below 5 V. You can download the datasheet and see it for yourself.

8-Channel Electronic Volume: Audio Signal Processing (nisshinbo-microdevices.co.jp)

That 5 V output for your dac is just the maximum, or rated output. I highly doubt it will exceed even 2 V from the unbalanced output, or 4 V from the balanced output for normal use. For your music listening, you would likely be dealing with less than 1 V or 0.1-0.5 V on average and may be up to 2 V during the rare peaks of some very dynamic contents. Well implemented DACs based on the flag ship ESS ICs may be offer a few dB SINAD higher, but as Gene said in one of his recent video, "Don't chase SINAD"!! Now if you are dealing with DACs that offer less than 90 dB SINAD, perhaps chasing it could be justifiable, but not when the one in the AV10 already an ESS IC that offers 120 dB SINAD and 127 dB SNR. In such scenario, the DAC chip is not the bottleneck anyway.

View attachment 62717

The AV10/AMP10 should be great, even if you use the build in DACs. Enjoy the music!

No doubt about it - the DACs in the AV10 are very good. However I have a Eversolo DMP-A6 and have found I like the DAC in it and like feeding XLR (but can also feed HDMI) into the AV10. Moreover, I have a DP59L turntable that I use MC cartridges on and use a Puffin phono preamp to send either SPDIF to the AV10 directly or are experimenting with routing it through the DMP-A6 or D70 Pro Sabre DAC. Do I need to do all of this? Of course not. But its fun. Thanks for the help!