Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

[multisport4me]

I don't follow the logic either. If I understand you correctly, you are asking why you could perceive different sound quality between your external dacs, when putting the signal through the Marantz ADC>DSP>DAC>Vol control signal path. To me, as you alluded to, it really shouldn't, because the ADC Marantz are likely using, has much lower specs than the DAC's, assuming they are using the same ones they used in the previous model lines.

The only thing I can suggest is, if you are curious enough to find out the "truth" (just hopefully), do a blind test, at least a level matched single blind test that's still not easy as it will take some work, but doable at home.

To me I used to think I heard differences when I used external DACs, and I still do and that's the main reason why I have so many of them lol.. That said, I am quite sure in a single blind test, I wouldn't hear any difference, lol..., again.

I guess I didn't ask my question(s) very well. So let's agree for a moment that two transparent external DACs connected up to the same source, amplification, speakers, etc. in a blind test would sound the same. Assuming most who read this forum and ASR believe that would be true, then it follows that an external DAC could be fed into the AV10 analog passthrough and would not sound any different. So I think we're all in agreement on that (well...maybe a couple of guys won't).

My question was whether two external transparent DACs fed into the AV10 ADC, then DSP to be upmixed by DSU could sound different from DAC to DAC due to small variances between those DACs? Gene responded that the ADC could change the sound but I think he meant more so because the ADCs are usually very poor in AVP/AVRs.

That said, it would be cool to finally nail down the ADC used in the AV10 and if it can be measured, that would be cool too. I find that you have to try pretty hard to make the AV10 sound BAD no matter what and how I connect things up.

 

[PENG]

I guess I didn't ask my question(s) very well. So let's agree for a moment that two transparent external DACs connected up to the same source, amplification, speakers, etc. in a blind test would sound the same. Assuming most who read this forum and ASR believe that would be true, then it follows that an external DAC could be fed into the AV10 analog passthrough and would not sound any different. So I think we're all in agreement on that (well...maybe a couple of guys won't).

My question was whether two external transparent DACs fed into the AV10 ADC, then DSP to be upmixed by DSU could sound different from DAC to DAC due to small variances between those DACs? Gene responded that the ADC could change the sound but I think he meant more so because the ADCs are usually very poor in AVP/AVRs.

That said, it would be cool to finally nail down the ADC used in the AV10 and if it can be measured, that would be cool too. I find that you have to try pretty hard to make the AV10 sound BAD no matter what and how I connect things up.

You own the AV10, so if you ask Marantz, they may be willing to tell you which ADC is used.

If it is the same one used in the AV8805, then it is not a good one, and will be the weak link. We do not know which ADC is used in the AV10, but if they upgraded it from the AV8805, they likely would have publicized it like the have with the upgraded dac. The fact is, we do not have the fact.

Edit: Looks like they switched to the PCM1803A. Not 100% sure but I would say at least 90% because that's what the A1H uses. In the past 10 years or so, the Marantz flag ship AVP and Denon flag ship ARVs have been using the same DAC and ADC chips.

The PCM1803A has specs similar to that of the previous AKM chip used in the AV8805A and AVR-X8500HA, just 1 dB better, and max sampling rate is 96 kHz. So, in theory, if your ext. Dacs have SINAD in the >93 dB range, the ADC will make them all sound the same.

Edit: Previous D+M AVPs/AVRs ADC chip is the AK5358

 

[multisport4me]

Just need to grumble about the lack of support for full range speakers and DLBC and publicly plead for ART soon!!!!! I just picked up some Paradigm Founder 120H speakers and these things can dig with the 1000w plate amp in it to drive the 3 x 8" bass drivers. So far I'm digging the bass and sound but wanted to tame the mids a bit with Dirac and was quickly reminded that DLBC doesn't support full range speakers. So there. I'm just pouting...back to your weekend activities.

 

[alcaloide]

Hi, guys. If I may, I would like an honest opinion from you. I have a Denon 4806CI that is now to be replaced by a new receiver. I bought all my system back on 2006. I started upgrading it with a new projector. Added two back channels and 4 height speakers. My speakers are from RBH sound when they were the reference system here at audioholics back then. The new ones are from SVS. Now I have a total 7.3.4.
What I am asking now is what would be a match, in terms of sound quality, to my beloved 4806CI. I understand that new receivers are not built like they were. I was thinking about the x6800h, then on Cinema 30. Now I am looking on the A1H. Of course I want all the bells and whistles, after all, as you can see, I intend to stay with the receiver for, at least, 10 years or more.
Is anybody able to give me a hint in what direction I should go? I do respect your opinions and try to learn with each comment you guys have.

The AV10 would be overkill? Too much of a difference with those others I mentioned? I just don't want to spend a lot of money and don't get THAT hearing difference...

I really appreciate any help.

Cheers from Brazil

 

[panteragstk]

Hi, guys. If I may, I would like an honest opinion from you. I have a Denon 4806CI that is now to be replaced by a new receiver. I bought all my system back on 2006. I started upgrading it with a new projector. Added two back channels and 4 height speakers. My speakers are from RBH sound when they were the reference system here at audioholics back then. The new ones are from SVS. Now I have a total 7.3.4.
What I am asking now is what would be a match, in terms of sound quality, to my beloved 4806CI. I understand that new receivers are not built like they were. I was thinking about the x6800h, then on Cinema 30. Now I am looking on the A1H. Of course I want all the bells and whistles, after all, as you can see, I intend to stay with the receiver for, at least, 10 years or more.
Is anybody able to give me a hint in what direction I should go? I do respect your opinions and try to learn with each comment you guys have.

The AV10 would be overkill? Too much of a difference with those others I mentioned? I just don't want to spend a lot of money and don't get THAT hearing difference...

I really appreciate any help.

Cheers from Brazil

I suppose it depends on what you'd like to spend on the AVR. I don't think anyone would advise against any of your choices. A1H is an awesome unit, but it could be considered "overkill" due to you not having more than 11 channels. If you plan to add more, then maybe it'd be worth it. I doubt you'd be unhappy with the 6800, or any of the other choices.

 

[gene]

Hi, guys. If I may, I would like an honest opinion from you. I have a Denon 4806CI that is now to be replaced by a new receiver. I bought all my system back on 2006. I started upgrading it with a new projector. Added two back channels and 4 height speakers. My speakers are from RBH sound when they were the reference system here at audioholics back then. The new ones are from SVS. Now I have a total 7.3.4.
What I am asking now is what would be a match, in terms of sound quality, to my beloved 4806CI. I understand that new receivers are not built like they were. I was thinking about the x6800h, then on Cinema 30. Now I am looking on the A1H. Of course I want all the bells and whistles, after all, as you can see, I intend to stay with the receiver for, at least, 10 years or more.
Is anybody able to give me a hint in what direction I should go? I do respect your opinions and try to learn with each comment you guys have.

The AV10 would be overkill? Too much of a difference with those others I mentioned? I just don't want to spend a lot of money and don't get THAT hearing difference...

I really appreciate any help.

Cheers from Brazil

If you want a one box solution, then the A1H is your ticket even if you're not using all the channels. The massive power supply and high current output devices on that unit will drive your RBH's as good as your old 4806CI. Alternatively, you could pick up a Cinema 40 and add a 3CH amp from Anthem and be in really good shape.

 

[PENG]

Hi, guys. If I may, I would like an honest opinion from you. I have a Denon 4806CI that is now to be replaced by a new receiver. I bought all my system back on 2006. I started upgrading it with a new projector. Added two back channels and 4 height speakers. My speakers are from RBH sound when they were the reference system here at audioholics back then. The new ones are from SVS. Now I have a total 7.3.4.
What I am asking now is what would be a match, in terms of sound quality, to my beloved 4806CI. I understand that new receivers are not built like they were. I was thinking about the x6800h, then on Cinema 30. Now I am looking on the A1H. Of course I want all the bells and whistles, after all, as you can see, I intend to stay with the receiver for, at least, 10 years or more.
Is anybody able to give me a hint in what direction I should go? I do respect your opinions and try to learn with each comment you guys have.

The AV10 would be overkill? Too much of a difference with those others I mentioned? I just don't want to spend a lot of money and don't get THAT hearing difference...

I really appreciate any help.

Cheers from Brazil

As an alternative to the suggested A1H, I would say the AVR-X6800H+a 3 channel Hypex based amp such as Apollon's NCx500 will give you better performance.

Apollon Hypex NCOREx NCx500 Multichannel Amplifier (3-5 Channel) | Apollon Audio Hypex Purifi Premium Amplifiers

Their amps get fantastic bench test results:
Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Most amps that has distortions below the threshold of audibility, high damping factor, flat frequency response will sound the same at output level well below their clipping point. So, I highly recommend you get the highest possible voltage/current output specs you could get for your budget for your big RBH sound towers even if you don't ever push them to their limits.

 

[PENG]

was quickly reminded that DLBC doesn't support full range speakers. So there. I'm just pouting...back to your weekend activities.

Couldn't you just set the XO to the lowest allowed, that should be equivalent to running your speakers full range, or at least close enough?

 

[Golfx]

As an alternative to the suggested A1H, I would say the AVR-X6800H+a 3 channel Hypex based amp such as Apollon's NCx500 will give you better performance.

Apollon Hypex NCOREx NCx500 Multichannel Amplifier (3-5 Channel) | Apollon Audio Hypex Purifi Premium Amplifiers

Their amps get fantastic bench test results:
Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Most amps that has distortions below the threshold of audibility, high damping factor, flat frequency response will sound the same at output level well below their clipping point. So, I highly recommend you get the highest possible voltage/current output specs you could get for your budget for your big RBH sound towers even if you don't ever push them to their limits.

Hi PENG. I see you are recommending apollon now. Any reason you have moved on from the two US companies? I bought March and Nord back when everything was backordered and have been very happy.

 

[PENG]

Hi PENG. I see you are recommending apollon now. Any reason you have moved on from the two US companies? I bought March and Nord back when everything was backordered and have been very happy.

I would still recommend the two US companies I bought from but I prefer Apollon now based on:
a) Apparent competitive price but better build quality, just visually based on their website photos only so could be wrong.
b) Better measurements, superb for the NCx500, that is a fact based on ASR measurements.
c) Willingness to respond to forum questions, even my ridiculous one below, and with informative data:

Note: I made similar request for FFTs based on 5 and 10 kHz test frequency, including to Gene, but I understand they are super busy on other priorities.

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review | Page 20 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

If Apollon is willing to respond to questions like this, I would imagine they would do the same to their customers.

The example amp linked above, according to Amir was listed for less than $1,200. I do not recall any amp at that price point that can deliver so much "clean" power. Surely I would still take a McIntosh amp rated for half that power, but that would be on money no object, and that I could not hear distortions below 0.01% basis only.

 

[Golfx]

I would still recommend the two US companies I bought from but I prefer Apollon now based on:
a) Apparent competitive price but better build quality, just visually based on their website photos only so could be wrong.
b) Better measurements, superb for the NCx500, that is a fact based on ASR measurements.
c) Willingness to respond to forum questions, even my ridiculous one below, and with informative data:

Note: I made similar request for FFTs based on 5 and 10 kHz test frequency, including to Gene, but I understand they are super busy on other priorities.

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review | Page 20 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

If Apollon is willing to respond to questions like this, I would imagine they would do the same to their customers.

The example amp linked above, according to Amir was listed for less than $1,200. I do not recall any amp at that price point that can deliver so much "clean" power. Surely I would still take a McIntosh amp rated for half that power, but that would be on money no object, and that I could not hear distortions below 0.01% basis only.

Thanks PENG I have shamefully missed that entire supportive string at ASR. I agree very responsive. If something goes wrong with my class Ds, Apollon will get my next purchase.

 

[PENG]

Thanks PENG I have shamefully missed that entire supportive string at ASR. I agree very responsive. If something goes wrong with my class Ds, Apollon will get my next purchase.

I am equally impressed with Nord's apparent build quality and their ASR measurements. They may be a little more expensive vs Apollon's and I just like Apollon's participation on ASR very much.

I cannot say the same the big US dealer, i.e. VTV, I would still recommend them for those with a smaller budget, and are prepared to do little diy improvements if found necessary. buckeye amp is probably the best in terms of value, the only down side is the long lead time. These amps are really great options for the AV10 owners who, after spending $8,000 (including the DL licenses), might prefer to go with much more budget friendly amps than the Amp10.

 

[panteragstk]

I would still recommend the two US companies I bought from but I prefer Apollon now based on:
a) Apparent competitive price but better build quality, just visually based on their website photos only so could be wrong.
b) Better measurements, superb for the NCx500, that is a fact based on ASR measurements.
c) Willingness to respond to forum questions, even my ridiculous one below, and with informative data:

Note: I made similar request for FFTs based on 5 and 10 kHz test frequency, including to Gene, but I understand they are super busy on other priorities.

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review | Page 20 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

If Apollon is willing to respond to questions like this, I would imagine they would do the same to their customers.

The example amp linked above, according to Amir was listed for less than $1,200. I do not recall any amp at that price point that can deliver so much "clean" power. Surely I would still take a McIntosh amp rated for half that power, but that would be on money no object, and that I could not hear distortions below 0.01% basis only.

That's an impressive level of customer interaction.

Guess I know who will get my business when the time comes.

 

[Golfx]

I am equally impressed with Nord's apparent build quality and their ASR measurements. They may be a little more expensive vs Apollon's and I just like Apollon's participation on ASR very much.

I cannot say the same the big US dealer, i.e. VTV, I would still recommend them for those with a smaller budget, and are prepared to do little diy improvements if found necessary. buckeye amp is probably the best in terms of value, the only down side is the long lead time. These amps are really great options for the AV10 owners who, after spending $8,000 (including the DL licenses), might prefer to go with much more budget friendly amps than the Amp10.

Thanks. the one thing I like about Nord is they offer a cheap 10 euro option that includes paying import duty and allows access to a US based repair facility

Nord Acoustics | USA & Canadian Customs Package & Support

USA & Canadian Customs Package and support: We handle all import fees, taxes, and customs duties, ensuring a seamless experience.

nordacoustics.co.uk

 

[ryanosaur]

I am equally impressed with Nord's apparent build quality and their ASR measurements. They may be a little more expensive vs Apollon's and I just like Apollon's participation on ASR very much.

I cannot say the same the big US dealer, i.e. VTV, I would still recommend them for those with a smaller budget, and are prepared to do little diy improvements if found necessary. buckeye amp is probably the best in terms of value, the only down side is the long lead time. These amps are really great options for the AV10 owners who, after spending $8,000 (including the DL licenses), might prefer to go with much more budget friendly amps than the Amp10.

I just want to add that Dylan (Buckeye Amps) is also very active on ASR and communicative about his products under development and lead times. Currently, he is working to get pre orders for the 3-channel NCx500s filled after a longer than expected development cycle with his supplier for a custom designed Power Supply to fully power those Amp Modules. I believe Amir is supposed to get one to bench test.
He’s also been working to improve his Chassis through his supplier.

Running a 1-person shop is certainly a challenge. Yet every time I’ve communicated with Dylan he has been extremely responsive and willing to discuss his product, options, and is open to suggestions (especially if it is something that might be useful to a larger market segment than just a peculiar request from a single buyer!).

Anyway, please don’t write him off and order from overseas. If interested in a product he offers, it’s definitely worth the time to contact him and discuss your needs!

 

[PENG]

I just want to add that Dylan (Buckeye Amps) is also very active on ASR and communicative about his products under development and lead times. Currently, he is working to get pre orders for the 3-channel NCx500s filled after a longer than expected development cycle with his supplier for a custom designed Power Supply to fully power those Amp Modules. I believe Amir is supposed to get one to bench test.
He’s also been working to improve his Chassis through his supplier.

Running a 1-person shop is certainly a challenge. Yet every time I’ve communicated with Dylan he has been extremely responsive and willing to discuss his product, options, and is open to suggestions (especially if it is something that might be useful to a larger market segment than just a peculiar request from a single buyer!).

Anyway, please don’t write him off and order from overseas. If interested in a product he offers, it’s definitely worth the time to contact him and discuss your needs!

100% agreed!

 

[alcaloide]

Many thanks to you guys that got a little time to try and help me.

I will think it through.

My main concern is that it seems (I may be wrong) AVRs nowadays are not built like they were back then. I understand now there are many more channels to be driven, but even doing so, they are smaller and lighter. I know, technology gets its pace and it is a tendency, but am I too far from this?

 

[Golfx]

Many thanks to you guys that got a little time to try and help me.

I will think it through.

My main concern is that it seems (I may be wrong) AVRs nowadays are not built like they were back then. I understand now there are many more channels to be driven, but even doing so, they are smaller and lighter. I know, technology gets its pace and it is a tendency, but am I too far from this?

Your thoughts that they are not made the way they were is likely valid—meaning today to keep costs down there are more parts supplied by diverse countries as well as partial assembly and manufacture taking place in different countries. All those different interfaces are likely to generate “hand off” errors between parts supplied, boards assembled and final assembly. Hence why we see software bugs showing up in early adopters who purchase the newer units. Denon & Marantz, while not immune to these, has an enviable earned reputation for the fewest errors for a large company. A quick read of respective owners’ forums can illustrated this when compared to smaller brands (Arcam, Anthem, NAD, etc.)

Regarding weight, oh my gosh, the A1H is like 70+ lbs whereas your Denon was 52 lbs. These are still all AB amps as Denon & Marantz have not yet transitioned to Class D amps. While this would reduce size, weight and heat it would likely introduce more of those initial hand off errors I spoke of.

Read through this introductory preview for more info. You will likely never need more.

Denon’s 15.4CH AVR-A1H: Return of the Super AV Receiver?

The new Denon 15.4CH AVR-A1H ($6,499) is among its first to incorporate Dirac Live and 4 independent subwoofer outputs. The 70lb A1H brings flagship status back to the brand with sheer power and build.

www.audioholics.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah in the real world the biggest and richest companies (Yamaha, Marantz/Denon) that can put the most money toward Research, Development, and Customer Support will be the safest bet overall.

 

[everettT]

Yeah in the real world the biggest and richest companies (Yamaha, Marantz/Denon) that can put the most money toward Research, Development, and Customer Support will be the safest bet overall.

What amazes me is the Trinnov, Lyngdorf, DataSats can put out a products that crush Harmon/Samsung in terms of software and execution, without initial bugs, with their cash available.