Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

Meticulous G

Meticulous G

Audioholic Intern
I used to work on Stones concert tours, as well as Grateful Dead, Neil Diamond, Santana, Bob Dylan and a few others, too :).
Just curious what era this was
...you talkin' late 60's - 70's, 70's 80's...or more toward the back end, if ya don't mind me askin'?
 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
Hmmm...it doesn't sound like there will much about either Roon or ART discussed on the 20th. Fingers crossed for some unwrapped presents to be unwrapped on the 20th with you, Gene!

Regarding full range speaker settings with DLBC - I could have sworn the HTP-1 allows this. It's been a long while since I owned one though so maybe someone that does can confirm/deny.
 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
Actually, I just tried changing the crossover on my mains and can drop it all the way down to 20Hz in Dirac. Which raises all kinds of other questions for me, such as, can the AV10 bass management features be used with DLBC? I assume not...
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Actually, I just tried changing the crossover on my mains and can drop it all the way down to 20Hz in Dirac. Which raises all kinds of other questions for me, such as, can the AV10 bass management features be used with DLBC? I assume not...
Why on earth would anyone use a crossover to sub at 20hz?
 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
Why on earth would anyone use a crossover to sub at 20hz?
If you read the article posted above, it was stated that you cannot set speakers to full range when using DLBC so in rare instances, for those that have true full range speakers, I was curious if you could set the crossover that low. As the author (or Gene) said, ideally DLBC would use the bass from true full range speakers as well as the subwoofers.....which is exactly what I thought the HTP-1 could do when I owned it. Not sure though - hoping someone can confirm.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If you read the article posted above, it was stated that you cannot set speakers to full range when using DLBC so in rare instances, for those that have true full range speakers, I was curious if you could set the crossover that low. As the author (or Gene) said, ideally DLBC would use the bass from true full range speakers as well as the subwoofers.....which is exactly what I thought the HTP-1 could do when I owned it. Not sure though - hoping someone can confirm.

Just curious what era this was
...you talkin' late 60's - 70's, 70's 80's...or more toward the back end, if ya don't mind me askin'?
I will need to review the article, just can't imagine any usefulness to a xover that low no matter what the gear.

Late 70s thru 80s was when I participated in the touring world. Not as a tech, tho I had extensive access to gear details for the customs documentation....
 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
I will need to review the article, just can't imagine any usefulness to a xover that low no matter what the gear.

Late 70s thru 80s was when I participated in the touring world. Not as a tech, tho I had extensive access to gear details for the customs documentation....
As stated, it would be far more ideal if you can set speakers to large when using DLBC. I get that the xover at 20Hz is not ideal - I just said I tried it and you can do that. I'm about 95% you can set speakers to large with the HTP-1 and DLBC so hopefully this can be a quick fix/improvement that Dirac and D&M can release.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
As stated, it would be far more ideal if you can set speakers to large when using DLBC. I get that the xover at 20Hz is not ideal - I just said I tried it and you can do that. I'm about 95% you can set speakers to large with the HTP-1 and DLBC so hopefully this can be a quick fix/improvement that Dirac and D&M can release.
Thanks for heads up on the DLBC thing then, will have to look into that
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Actually, I just tried changing the crossover on my mains and can drop it all the way down to 20Hz in Dirac. Which raises all kinds of other questions for me, such as, can the AV10 bass management features be used with DLBC? I assume not...
You can drop to 20hz but it still HP the mains at 20Hz from our experience on other platforms (ie. Arcam and AudioControl).
 
Meticulous G

Meticulous G

Audioholic Intern
Late 70s thru 80s was when I participated in the touring world. Not as a tech, tho I had extensive access to gear details for the customs documentation....
Ahh, that's coolio...ya musta scored some decent memorabilia, huh?

Yeah, ya got me wondering if you were around the dead during the wall of sound days. What I'd give to be able to say I've stood within a ¼ mile of that behemoth for a jam or 3

Aand also, if ya spent any time around Bear, picking up any of his seemingly exclusive knowledge of sound [reproduction]

He said at one point that there were secrets of audio that would most likely die with him
...which struck me as odd

Kudos either way, ya lucky
so & so
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Ahh, that's coolio...ya musta scored some decent memorabilia, huh?

Yeah, ya got me wondering if you were around the dead during the wall of sound days. What I'd give to be able to say I've stood within a ¼ mile of that behemoth for a jam or 3

Aand also, if ya spent any time around Bear, picking up any of his seemingly exclusive knowledge of sound [reproduction]

He said at one point that there were secrets of audio that would most likely die with him
...which struck me as odd

Kudos either way, ya lucky
so & so
Altho my first tour I did any significant work on was Europe 72, but aside from a visit to a house they had up in Marin, didn't go to a show of theirs for a coupla years after that. I might have had some of bear's other famous product, tho :) I did recently pickup some recordings of bear's....https://owsleystanleyfoundation.org/
 
D

dcrandon

Enthusiast
I just asked a question of Dirac as to whether DLBC offers any benefits to those of us who have large full range main speakers and do not use subwoofers. They told me no, there is no benefit.
I also asked if we were going to be forced to purchase DLBC if we wanted to purchase ART in the future when it's offered. He told me no you'll not be forced to purchase DLBC in order to upgrade to ART. The question I forgot to ask though is did I just waste my money purchasing Live Room Correction, when I plan on getting ART when it's offered, because isn't ART basically a replacement for Live Room Correction?
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
I just asked a question of Dirac as to whether DLBC offers any benefits to those of us who have large full range main speakers and do not use subwoofers. They told me no, there is no benefit.
I also asked if we were going to be forced to purchase DLBC if we wanted to purchase ART in the future when it's offered. He told me no you'll not be forced to purchase DLBC in order to upgrade to ART. The question I forgot to ask though is did I just waste my money purchasing Live Room Correction, when I plan on getting ART when it's offered, because isn't ART basically a replacement for Live Room Correction?
DLBC is designed to integrate and manage subwoofers. If you don't have subs, you don't need it. You *do* need Dirac Live in order to use Active Room Treatment, however. It is *not* a replacement for DL and it only operates up to 150 Hz. You can see more details here:

 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
DLBC is designed to integrate and manage subwoofers. If you don't have subs, you don't need it. You *do* need Dirac Live in order to use Active Room Treatment, however. It is *not* a replacement for DL and it only operates up to 150 Hz. You can see more details here:

I have a lot of subs so DLBC is still great. But I'm disappointed that bass from full range speakers is not used by DLBC and it seems a xover is imposed on them even if you don't want an xover on your full range mains. For some reason I was led to believe that back when I owned an HTP-1, which I thought allowed full range speakers to NOT have a crossover. It seems all signs are pointing to that not being the case.
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
I have a lot of subs so DLBC is still great. But I'm disappointed that bass from full range speakers is not used by DLBC and it seems a xover is imposed on them even if you don't want an xover on your full range mains. For some reason I was led to believe that back when I owned an HTP-1, which I thought allowed full range speakers to NOT have a crossover. It seems all signs are pointing to that not being the case.
Yes DLBC enforces a crossover and LPF. On the Integra DRX-8.4, the Double-Bass feature is explicitly disabled when DLBC is active and the Web UI indicates that all bass management is being handled by DLBC. I'm sure the HTP-1 and all other implementations are the same. IIRC, that video I linked above has a Storm Audio representative complaining about that limitation of DLBC.

ART will allow all speakers to be used to their full capabilities, but it's not clear to me if that's just as support speakers and actual content is still crossed over to the subwoofers. I assume this is the case, however.
 
D

dcrandon

Enthusiast
DLBC is designed to integrate and manage subwoofers. If you don't have subs, you don't need it. You *do* need Dirac Live in order to use Active Room Treatment, however. It is *not* a replacement for DL and it only operates up to 150 Hz. You can see more details here:


Consider that having full-range front speakers is no different than subs, except they are in the same cabinet as the mids and highs. Theoretically, I could cut my large main speakers in half and then have two subs and two satellite speakers. Given that, Dirac DID have a plan to integrate front full-range speakers (if they are large), into the DLBC. They had a white paper that stated this (see below). This paper is dated 4/17/2020. The rev.2 version of this paper from this year still has the section in the Table of Contents, but the text is deleted.

I'm curious as to why this was apparently abandoned.

Bass Control in Dirac Live
Authors
Lars-Johan Brännmark
Frans Rosencratz
Mikael Ueno Andersson

Upcoming Bass Control 2.0
Since a pair of full-range speakers can produce frequencies below 100 Hz
contribute to the optimization by including them into the bass control design.
As seen in section Handling of multiple sub-woofers, by adjusting levels, delays,
and phase responses of the individual sub-woofers, it is possible to minimize
the variation between the measurement points and get a more unified listening
area. Therefore, in the upcoming Bass Control 2.0 the user will have the ability
to include their full-range speakers into the Bass Control optimization. From
the optimization design perspective, a full-range speaker will be seen as both a
small-range speaker and a sub-woofer.
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
Consider that having full-range front speakers is no different than subs, except they are in the same cabinet as the mids and highs. Theoretically, I could cut my large main speakers in half and then have two subs and two satellite speakers. Given that, Dirac DID have a plan to integrate front full-range speakers (if they are large), into the DLBC. They had a white paper that stated this (see below). This paper is dated 4/17/2020. The rev.2 version of this paper from this year still has the section in the Table of Contents, but the text is deleted.

I'm curious as to why this was apparently abandoned.

Bass Control in Dirac Live
Authors
Lars-Johan Brännmark
Frans Rosencratz
Mikael Ueno Andersson

Upcoming Bass Control 2.0
Since a pair of full-range speakers can produce frequencies below 100 Hz
contribute to the optimization by including them into the bass control design.
As seen in section Handling of multiple sub-woofers, by adjusting levels, delays,
and phase responses of the individual sub-woofers, it is possible to minimize
the variation between the measurement points and get a more unified listening
area. Therefore, in the upcoming Bass Control 2.0 the user will have the ability
to include their full-range speakers into the Bass Control optimization. From
the optimization design perspective, a full-range speaker will be seen as both a
small-range speaker and a sub-woofer.
Very interesting. One can only hope it's not been completely abandoned...
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Consider that having full-range front speakers is no different than subs, except they are in the same cabinet as the mids and highs. Theoretically, I could cut my large main speakers in half and then have two subs and two satellite speakers. Given that, Dirac DID have a plan to integrate front full-range speakers (if they are large), into the DLBC. They had a white paper that stated this (see below). This paper is dated 4/17/2020. The rev.2 version of this paper from this year still has the section in the Table of Contents, but the text is deleted.

I'm curious as to why this was apparently abandoned.

Bass Control in Dirac Live
Authors
Lars-Johan Brännmark
Frans Rosencratz
Mikael Ueno Andersson

Upcoming Bass Control 2.0
Since a pair of full-range speakers can produce frequencies below 100 Hz
contribute to the optimization by including them into the bass control design.
As seen in section Handling of multiple sub-woofers, by adjusting levels, delays,
and phase responses of the individual sub-woofers, it is possible to minimize
the variation between the measurement points and get a more unified listening
area. Therefore, in the upcoming Bass Control 2.0 the user will have the ability
to include their full-range speakers into the Bass Control optimization. From
the optimization design perspective, a full-range speaker will be seen as both a
small-range speaker and a sub-woofer.
Keep in mind that the Subwoofer will be in different locations than your Mains and receive separate signals than Front Left, Front Right. As far as utilizing a full Range Speaker at FL, FR as part of a Bass Control Update which also utilizes Subs… this is the same premise that Geddes uses in his strategy for using multiple Subs to even out response in the room.
With that, I would say that any Bass Control will not benefit a strict 2-channel system. On the other hand, full range towers (plus subs) could be smartly used as low frequency sources in the appropriate setup.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Keep in mind that the Subwoofer will be in different locations than your Mains and receive separate signals than Front Left, Front Right. As far as utilizing a full Range Speaker at FL, FR as part of a Bass Control Update which also utilizes Subs… this is the same premise that Geddes uses in his strategy for using multiple Subs to even out response in the room.
With that, I would say that any Bass Control will not benefit a strict 2-channel system. On the other hand, full range towers (plus subs) could be smartly used as low frequency sources in the appropriate setup.
Based on my understanding, and that can be incorrect or incomplete:
- Dirac Live with bass control disabled will not do time alignment and phase optimization (the two are actually directly related and Dirac, Anthem, Audyssey never really even try to explain what phase optimization does aside from time alignment).
- With bass control enabled, it will time align the speakers among themselves and also align them as a group, to the subwoofers as a group (there is no detailed explanation of this "group" thing either).

I have searched extensively online including of course all Dirac bass control related articles on Dirac and other websites and have never found any single article that explains more details. My conclusion is that Dirac wants to keep any more details away from the public, to avoid, or at least delay others potential attempt to benefit from such information in their own product development.

So, we'll probably never know whether DLBC could, or already can help in 2.0 through X.0 applications, without subwoofers. In theory, it obviously can, as post#357 mentioned.

I respect Geddes, but without actually reading his publications that specifically discussed the strategy you cited, I could only add that based on my experience with the use of multiple subwoofers, I would have to say while the theory is sound, in terms of how it would tend to "even out response in the room", I found it made it hard for room correction systems, at least the 3 have experience with to work well, versus just a single subwoofer. Given the theory involved, I think it makes sense, that is unless the subwoofers are placed in symmetrical ways in a well shaped room (such as near perfectly rectangular, obviously), it could be a monumental task for the algorithm to work.

I can put together a set of comparison graphs to show how DL can do a much better job with one sub vs two. Can't do it with Audyssey any more as I traded in both my Denon AVR and gave away my Marantz AVPs.
 
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