Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This amp sounds great to my ears. I'm not sure why Shane Lee thought it sounded rolled off. My measurements and listening tests don't concur with that opinion.
We should know by now, with respect, Shane Lee, Joe N Tell (less so for him), Andrew Robinson and the likes of them don't hear by ears/brains, but more brains and eyes.:p That's why!!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
@gene did you take any measurements to find out if the ADC would limit sampling rate to 96 kHz like they always had been, due to the use of the AK5358A that is now obsolete?

I just wonder if this time they upgraded their lineup to at least a slightly better one that could do 192 kHz. If you had taken any measurements using the analog inputs you would have noticed whether the AV10 downsample to 192, or still just 96.

It matters, for those who have reason not to use analog inputs in dirct/pure direct mode and still want minimal degradation from going through the ADC.
Absolutely no difference between 96KHz and 192KHz except a waste of bits. 48KHz is absolutely as high as you need to go.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Absolutely no difference between 96KHz and 192KHz except a waste of bits. 48KHz is absolutely as high as you need to go.
I actually agree with you on this, but I still would feel better if they use ADCs that is capable of higher sampling rate. Those that are limited to 96 kHz, presumably have other negativity inherent with lower bar for the design, to meet he cost target. Those that can do much higher rate typically means they are better engineered to meet higher/tighter specs and therefore likely have better performance. What I am saying is, the highly sampling rate capability is just an indicator, not that it means better quality.

An analogy (sort of) is, I cannot hear differences in sound quality between master contents digitized to 16bit/44.1 kHz vs 24bit/358 kHz, but I always prefer to buy from the likes of HDtracks.com Flac, wave, or whatever file format that are at 24bit/48 kHz or higher, because I found those have a higher chance of offering audibly better sound quality. Such that if I have 50 such files at 16b/44.1K, 10 of them may sound transparent to me, but if I have 50 such files at 24b/48K or better, there would likely be 20 that may sound transparent to me.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
We should know by now, with respect, Shane Lee, Joe N Tell (less so for him), Andrew Robinson and the likes of them don't hear by ears/brains, but more brains and eyes.:p That's why!!
Oh, yeah, Marantz has that warm sound even if it has the best measurements because measurements don't tell you such things. That's why all AVR, AVP, Amps sound differently to them in Pure Direct mode. And the newer ones (especially if they have better measurements) will always sound better. :D

And you just need a couple of friends with you to "prove" that it's true. ;)
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Oh, yeah, Marantz has that warm sound even if it has the best measurements because measurements don't tell you such things. That's why all AVR, AVP, Amps sound differently to them in Pure Direct mode. And the newer ones (especially if they have better measurements) will always sound better. :D

And you just need a couple of friends with you to "prove" that it's true. ;)
They learnt a lot on how to add credibilty over the years, so lots of time they wouldn't use friends any more, but wives, or even 12 years old daughters, who, would ask what changed, how come it suddenly sounded so much better?

I tried the same trick once, but was told "no difference whatsoever", in no uncertainty terms, even when I thought I definitely heard a difference. So as usual, it depends...
 
M

multisport4me

Audioholic
I actually agree with you on this, but I still would feel better if they use ADCs that is capable of higher sampling rate. Those that are limited to 96 kHz, presumably have other negativity inherent with lower bar for the design, to meet he cost target. Those that can do much higher rate typically means they are better engineered to meet higher/tighter specs and therefore likely have better performance. What I am saying is, the highly sampling rate capability is just an indicator, not that it means better quality.

An analogy (sort of) is, I cannot hear differences in sound quality between master contents digitized to 16bit/44.1 kHz vs 24bit/358 kHz, but I always prefer to buy from the likes of HDtracks.com Flac, wave, or whatever file format that are at 24bit/48 kHz or higher, because I found those have a higher chance of offering audibly better sound quality. Such that if I have 50 such files at 16b/44.1K, 10 of them may sound transparent to me, but if I have 50 such files at 24b/48K or better, there would likely be 20 that may sound transparent to me.
Was anyone ever able to verify the type of ADC used in the AV10? Curious to know if it is upgraded over previous D&M AVPs.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
My bench test has been updated to a full review with accompanying Long-term usage review on Youtube dropping at 11am EST today:


 
Bobby Bass

Bobby Bass

Audioholic Chief
Gene thanks for the update. A monster system for sure. I’ve loved Marantz equipment since I started this hobby as a kid. Now I have to check my coach cushions for the 15K to buy both Units.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@gene, good morning, and many thanks for this very thoughtful review update with the additional test results. I read it but will have to re-read it when I can set aside at least an hour of free time in order to not miss the fine prints.:D No one else has done a more detailed bench tests than you, must have taken you many hours of meticulous efforts in getting so much test results and, avoiding mistakes too!

One part I would like you to confirm is you were just joking, when you stated:

This system is in a large open family room and needs a powerful amp and lots of piston area in the woofers to produce reference-level cinematic experiences.

I found the AV 10 / Amp 10 combo provided more slam and dynamics than the venerable Marantz SR8015 AV receiver that was powering this room prior.[/QUOTE]

I can't believe you have been using a 140 W AVR prior to drive those speakers in a large room, you must be using it with some external amp(s) right? So, again, were you serious? If you were, what was your typical volume setting before on the SR8015?
 
O

Oddball

Audioholic Intern
Many thanks to Gene for the updated review. Much appreciated. Have you been using any less common bass management like LFE+Main or LFE distribution in that system?

Also, perhaps for the forum audience only, we could hear some thoughts how AV-10 fares against the Storm 24 even if not apples to apples (Audy vs PEQ and obviously different rooms/speakers). Both of these systems seem really good.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
My bench test has been updated to a full review with accompanying Long-term usage review on Youtube dropping at 11am EST today:


Thanks for updating this Gene I can't wait to dive into it later. My work at the hospital can be a grind and having an article like this about audio I can get into is just the lift to my day I'll be looking forward too!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
My bench test has been updated to a full review with accompanying Long-term usage review on Youtube dropping at 11am EST today:


Gene I remember you making comments in past threads about possibly comparing the Audyssey and the Dirac Room EQs on the Marantz and that you might be posting articles on this.

By chance have you already done so and I just missed those articles either here or on the YouTube channel?
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
@gene, good morning, and many thanks for this very thoughtful review update with the additional test results. I read it but will have to re-read it when I can set aside at least an hour of free time in order to not miss the fine prints.:D No one else has done a more detailed bench tests than you, must have taken you many hours of meticulous efforts in getting so much test results and, avoiding mistakes too!

One part I would like you to confirm is you were just joking, when you stated:
thanks for acknowledging my efforts on the Marantz coverage. It's been pretty exhaustive but I like to take on projects like this once or twice a year since it's the root of why I started Audioholics 25 years ago. I wish I had more time to do coverage like this but am now buried peer reviewing other writers/content producer content on our site as well as keeping it profitable so I can pay my review staff and earn a living in the process :)

Yes I tortured the SR8015 with the Perlisten speaker system but it held up quite nicely. The SR8015 really has good 4 ohm current drive and I really loved that AVR. The Marantz separates combo is definitely a marked improvement but some of that is also attributed to the better version of Audyssey as well.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gene I remember you making comments in past threads about possibly comparing the Audyssey and the Dirac Room EQs on the Marantz and that you might be posting articles on this.

By chance have you already done so and I just missed those articles either here or on the YouTube channel?
I had problems with the Dirac implementation on the AV 10 when I tried to set it up. Even Matt Poes was here and we couldn't get it dialed in right. I will have to revisit this AFTER I sort out the Dirac ART issues in my theater room. As Khan said to Kirk in STWOK "Time is a luxury I don't have". :(
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Many thanks to Gene for the updated review. Much appreciated. Have you been using any less common bass management like LFE+Main or LFE distribution in that system?

Also, perhaps for the forum audience only, we could hear some thoughts how AV-10 fares against the Storm 24 even if not apples to apples (Audy vs PEQ and obviously different rooms/speakers). Both of these systems seem really good.
Yes I discuss this in the article and Youtube video. I used LFE distribution (a feature I asked Marantz to incorporate and they finally did!) I set it to -3dB routing to my Perlisten speakers in conjunction with my JL Audio subs. It only works for Audyssey NOT Dirac since Dirac automatically engages a HPF on the mains EVEN if set to LARGE and infrasonic bypass, unfortunately.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
It strikes me that DIRAC is somewhat of a problem child requiring extra attention. Is there any device where it works trouble free? 25% of the HTP-1 thread over at AVSF seems like conversation about making DIRAC work.
*shrugs
I would love to get to experience it in a working system where I could also easily compare it to another working room correction protocol.
At this point, however, the only system I am interested in is keeping with Audyssey. XT32 works pretty d@mn good with the App. Frankly, if I want to really do a deep dive I would look at using Ratbuddysey to augment before spending money on anything else...

And I really want to try DIRAC!

*sighs

6 yrs ago, people had high praise of Anthem Room Correction, too, but even that seems troubled in many conversations I've read.

Oh well.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I had problems with the Dirac implementation on the AV 10 when I tried to set it up. Even Matt Poes was here and we couldn't get it dialed in right. I will have to revisit this AFTER I sort out the Dirac ART issues in my theater room. As Khan said to Kirk in STWOK "Time is a luxury I don't have". :(
In my experience, limited by the PC standalone version, there is one issue with DLBC, in that a) it won't dial in the crossover for the best looking graph so one has to changed them slightly and see if, for example, the auto selected point, say 70 Hz is not as good as 75 Hz, b) if you make changes to the target curve, you have to click the desktop screen at the right place and click "calculate", the sequence of the "clicks" has to be right, if not, your REW graphs will not show the best results. It is hard to described the process, one must use REW to check the results after each target curve customizing to ensure nothing get messed up (not really mess up a lot, but just that you will not get the best looking curves). Other than that, it works much better than ARC Genesis's bass control, that is what they called auto phase/optimization etc.., I have plenty of REW graphs to show.

So, if you like what you are getting with Mult EQ X, Dirac Live, while better/more effective in smoothing the bass without customizing, it does require one to know exactly what to do after customizing, but if you do it right, you will likely get better results that what you can with Mult EQ X, all else being equal, and either one, imo, is much better than ARC Genesis in its current form. That's all for pretty REW graphs, if one goes by ears, I would think all bets are off lol...

I really would love to review DLBC on an AVR such as the AVR-X3800H, and demo how to get great results (graphs), but I have have the Anthem, and an AVR-X1800H so I would get into big trouble if I bring home a X3800H. So, I can wait to see you and Matthew get back into reviews on those, though I understand as much as you guys want to do those in depth reviews, you do have to make a living (or fortune lol...). Too bad I am far away in Canada, otherwise, as a retired EE with lots of free time, I would do it for you guys for free/and fun.:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It strikes me that DIRAC is somewhat of a problem child requiring extra attention. Is there any device where it works trouble free? 25% of the HTP-1 thread over at AVSF seems like conversation about making DIRAC work.
*shrugs
I would love to get to experience it in a working system where I could also easily compare it to another working room correction protocol.
At this point, however, the only system I am interested in is keeping with Audyssey. XT32 works pretty d@mn good with the App. Frankly, if I want to really do a deep dive I would look at using Ratbuddysey to augment before spending money on anything else...

And I really want to try DIRAC!

*sighs

6 yrs ago, people had high praise of Anthem Room Correction, too, but even that seems troubled in many conversations I've read.

Oh well.
That all do their job to produce results in terms of smooth, flat responses, Dirac Live is not necessarily better in that sense, but it does produce visibly better impulse response graphs, and consistent results after customizing the target curves. One just have to know how to do it, like clicking the right place on the UI at the right time. Mult EQ X, or even the $20 app is a little easier but Dirac is still better even for that, it only gets a little tricky if you use the bass control features and that's when I found clicking in the right place at the right time becomes an issue. To be clear, I have no experience with the AVR/AVP versions, though I would suspect the UI should work the same of very similar to the PC standalone version, that I have a lot of experience with.

If you have something that runs DL, don't give up, it really isn't a problem child as such, the extra attention required is just learning how to use it, and do not hesitate to contact their tech support, they will get back to you and help you with solutions, but at times it may take a few days, other times same or next day response. It is always best to attach screen shots to help clarify your issue(s).

I posted REW graphs many times on this forum, so my assessment on the effectiveness of smoothing the in-room responses in order of DLBC > Audyssey MultEQ editor app (with Ratbuddyssey) > ARC Genesis is based on REW/Umik-1 mic measurements, not subjective measurements.

DL is also the easiest, for customization, but gets slightly tricky in one wants to use the bass control, yeah, ouch it costs $350 for the license so users should spend the time to learn how to do it right.
 

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