Low Volume Fidelity VS Power Ratings

[LuisEcho]

I know Gene recomends setting up the speakers in small configuration i have them as large and bi-amped. Considering ohms law using the binding post in the speaker towers vs bi-amping it would change the resistance from 8 to 4 yeilding more power to the speaker so i dont know if maybe i should remove the bi-amp and set the speaker towers to small. What do you guys think?

 

[panteragstk]

I would say we should be normal humans rather than not being sensitive and still rude. What is acceptable in Texas is not in the rest of the world.

Your second comment totally undermined the first.

That and I'm actually from Texas and I'm not sure why you felt the need to insult an entire state full of people. Especially since I don't like the rude and snarky comments anymore than you do.

Can we keep this to a logical, down to earth discussion and not delve into childish attacks? One of the reasons I like this forum so much as WE TYPICALLY DON'T DO THAT TO EACH OTHER.

Agree, disagree, who cares?

 

[PENG]

Wonder how speaker sensitivity changes depending on the frequency range? Guess it is changing in non linear way diferently in each of freq bands. Dont know much on this though. Also believe some freq are most important for one persone and diff for another. So you will never have the same perception from the same amp and speaker combination. Hence 'bias' thing is irrelevant.

The bias thing is absolutely relevant, plenty of well documented scientific evidence. Speaker sensitivity, impedance, distortions, all vary with frequency; and room acoustic environment has significant impacts as well. However, the amp's job is to amplify, when operating well within their optimal operating limits, amps that are designed for truly high fidelity applications will have almost ruler flat frequency response, with damping factors high enough, distortions low enough, to get out of the way of other components and factors that have much more impacts.

I have used REW and the UMik-1 mic to plot my speakers response when paired with different preamp/amps, the plots practically overlap to the point they look like one. Anyone who owns an AVR and amps, or prepro, preamp and power amps can easy do the same to see for themselves.

There is one exception, when one of my vintage preamp is involved, I do get some slight variations, enough for me to investigate further, when I have some free time.

 

[PENG]

I would say we should be normal humans rather than not being sensitive and still rude. What is acceptable in Texas is not in the rest of the world.

Good point, but by the same token, what is normal then, those from Texas or elsewhere?

 

[Verdinut]

I know Gene recomends setting up the speakers in small configuration i have them as large and bi-amped. Considering ohms law using the binding post in the speaker towers vs bi-amping it would change the resistance from 8 to 4 yeilding more power to the speaker so i dont know if maybe i should remove the bi-amp and set the speaker towers to small. What do you guys think?

What do you mean by bi-amped? Are you using electronic crossovers to divide the frequency spectrum between two separate amplifiers for each speaker cabinet?
Otherwise, it's not real bi-amplifying.
Also, by using jumpers between the binding posts of each enclosure, it would not reduce the impedance from 8 to 4 ohms, but perhaps only slightly depending on the passive crossover design.

 

[Swerd]

Wonder how speaker sensitivity changes depending on the frequency range? Guess it is changing in non linear way diferently in each of freq bands. Dont know much on this though.

That just what frequency response curves tell us. They graph frequency (horizontal axis) against loudness or SPL (vertical axis). Several unidentified examples follow:

The first is bass heavy. The second will be shrill sounding while also having a deep bass response. The third looks very good. Note how it's flatter looking.

You can predict which speakers will be perceived as sounding good by looking at these measurements. However, you cannot predict what some people prefer.

 

[PENG]

I know Gene recomends setting up the speakers in small configuration i have them as large and bi-amped. Considering ohms law using the binding post in the speaker towers vs bi-amping it would change the resistance from 8 to 4 yeilding more power to the speaker so i dont know if maybe i should remove the bi-amp and set the speaker towers to small. What do you guys think?

Be careful, biamping and biamping won't change the effective impedance of your speakers as seen by the amp. If you connect two identical pairs of speakers to the same one set of amplifier binding posts (for that one channel), then yes the amp will see half the impedance, say the nominal 8 ohm will then become nominal 4 ohms.

 

[Andrein]

Good point, but by the same token, what is normal then, those from Texas or elsewhere?

Appology for Texas. What i meant was some sort of directness of some of the people from south states i met in my life before...

 

[Andrein]

The bias thing is absolutely relevant, plenty of well documented scientific evidence. Speaker sensitivity, impedance, distortions, all vary with frequency; and room acoustic environment has significant impacts as well. However, the amp's job is to amplify, when operating well within their optimal operating limits, amps that are designed for truly high fidelity applications will have almost ruler flat frequency response, with damping factors high enough, distortions low enough, to get out of the way of other components and factors that have much more impacts.

I have used REW and the UMik-1 mic to plot my speakers response when paired with different preamp/amps, the plots practically overlap to the point they look like one. Anyone who owns an AVR and amps, or prepro, preamp and power amps can easy do the same to see for themselves.

There is one exception, when one of my vintage preamp is involved, I do get some slight variations, enough for me to investigate further, when I have some free time.

I have rew, umik and nano avr from minidsp. Played with them some time ago. With different system though. Got better curve but to me it did not sound much better tbh. Did not try doing measurements on my current system yet. I feel that it is a huge simplification saying that you can predict how system will sound for particular person by knowing the curve. Maybe it will work for majority of cases but since all people are different it will not work for everyone.

 

[Andrein]

Also most of avrs have class d amps which probably dont sound same way as class a or class ab in at least some of the cases. This is probably why some people hear difference by moving to separate amp while keeping the same speakers. It is not about distortion only or freq response. It is also about some sort of clarity and transparency.

 

[panteragstk]

Appology for Texas. What i meant was some sort of directness of some of the people from south states i met in my life before...

Thanks for that. Directness doesn't have to be rude.

 

[Hetfield]

Also most of avrs have class d amps which probably dont sound same way as class a or class ab in at least some of the cases. This is probably why some people hear difference by moving to separate amp. It is not about distortion only. It is also about some sort of clarity and transparency.

Bingo! Your making the points I'm not smart enough to make. Thanks.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[panteragstk]

Also most of avrs have class d amps which probably dont sound same way as class a or class ab in at least some of the cases. This is probably why some people hear difference by moving to separate amp. It is not about distortion only. It is also about some sort of clarity and transparency.

I don't think as many AVRs have class D as you seem to think. However, that is a good point to look at amp type in an AVR and take that into consideration. I've got a few class D amps at home, but EVERY receiver I have is AB.

I think the main question for me at this point is would external amplification help low volume SQ paired with a low sensitivity speaker? I don't see how as you would be using fewer watts. Someone smarter than me can answer that one.

 

[Andrein]

I don't think as many AVRs have class D as you seem to think. However, that is a good point to look at amp type in an AVR and take that into consideration. I've got a few class D amps at home, but EVERY receiver I have is AB.

I think the main question for me at this point is would external amplification help low volume SQ paired with a low sensitivity speaker? I don't see how as you would be using fewer watts. Someone smarter than me can answer that one.

I guess class ab receiver is exception given manufacturer tries to make avr as light as possible for the most of the users

 

[Swerd]

Also most of avrs have class d amps which probably dont sound same way as class a or class ab in at least some of the cases.

This is demonstrably false. Some, but certainly not most AVRs have class D amps. Where did you get such misinformation?

You cannot claim that class A, AB, or D amps actually sound different unless you can point to listening test data where groups of listeners heard different classes of amplifiers while they did not know the identity of the amps. You can claim that they measure different, and that they might sound different. But only listening tests, done under proper conditions, can determine how they do sound.

… I feel that it is a huge simplification saying that you can predict how system will sound for particular person by knowing the curve. Maybe it will work for majority of cases but since all people are different it will not work for everyone.

More misinformation.

In fact Toole & Olive, over their long career studying blind listening tests of loud speakers, have clearly shown that a large majority of listeners strongly prefer the sound of speakers with relatively flat frequency response curves. In other words, all people are not nearly so different as you think.

 

[Verdinut]

I guess class ab receiver is exception given manufacturer tries to make avr as light as possible for the most of the users

Whether Class AB or D, G or H is irrelevant with regard to the weight of an amplifier. It's the power supply used.

For instance, the conventional linear power supply with huge transformer takes most of the weight of an amplifier. If the power supply uses the switching power technology, because of the high frequency at which the power is switched, normally between 100,000 and over 200,000 times per second, smaller and obviously lighter transformers can be used.

You can find Class AB amplifiers with either the conventional power supply or the switching type. The Class D amp is mostly used with switching power supplies.

 

[Andrein]

This is demonstrably false. Some, but certainly not most AVRs have class D amps. Where did you get such misinformation?

You cannot claim that class A, AB, or D amps actually sound different unless you can point to listening test data where groups of listeners heard different classes of amplifiers while they did not know the identity of the amps. You can claim that they measure different, and that they might sound different. But only listening tests, done under proper conditions, can determine how they do sound.
More misinformation.

In fact Toole & Olive, over their long career studying blind listening tests of loud speakers, have clearly shown that a large majority of listeners strongly prefer the sound of speakers with relatively flat frequency response curves. In other words, all people are not nearly so different as you think.

Not talking about top models which can be class ab.

What if i and a couple of others are from that minority? I did say that curve work for majority. Please read my post again.

 

[Pogre]

What do you mean by bi-amped? Are you using electronic crossovers to divide the frequency spectrum between two separate amplifiers for each speaker cabinet?
Otherwise, it's not real bi-amplifying.
Also, by using jumpers between the binding posts of each enclosure, it would not reduce the impedance from 8 to 4 ohms, but perhaps only slightly depending on the passive crossover design.

Just making it clear for the op, you should remove the jumpers if you do biwire.

 

[Verdinut]

Just making it clear for the op, you should remove the jumpers if you do biwire.

I don't see any advantage in bi-wiring. If the speaker cable is too small, just replace it by a bigger gauge wire.

Bi-wiring must have been promoted by one of those bullshit expensive speaker cable manufacturers. Selling more wire brings more profits!

 

[Andrein]

This is demonstrably false. Some, but certainly not most AVRs have class D amps. Where did you get such misinformation?

You cannot claim that class A, AB, or D amps actually sound different unless you can point to listening test data where groups of listeners heard different classes of amplifiers while they did not know the identity of the amps. You can claim that they measure different, and that they might sound different. But only listening tests, done under proper conditions, can determine how they do sound.
More misinformation.

In fact Toole & Olive, over their long career studying blind listening tests of loud speakers, have clearly shown that a large majority of listeners strongly prefer the sound of speakers with relatively flat frequency response curves. In other words, all people are not nearly so different as you think.

Would 'proper' listening test results mean much to you if you hear different? Will you force yourself to trust the results and ignore what you hear?