Low Volume Fidelity VS Power Ratings

[Hetfield]

By the way I had a discussion just like this the other day with the CEO of a very large we'll know speaker manufacturer. We talked about costs of speaker research, costs of drivers and all that stuff. Like he was saying there are so many variables, and there is no real way to quantify what people actually hear. We talked about speakers that cost a lot of money and speakers that cost a fraction of the price. Interesting discussion.

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[Hetfield]

Ah, but I do know what I've heard in this journey....I'm not trying to convince you other than to perhaps open your mind and experience to explanations other than those based on simply your own informal subjective experience with a specific set of components....

Forget it, it's over. We all have different gear, different tastes, different perceptions. Let's all sing kumbaya. I'm always amazed when a discussion of Def Tech comes up which I really like and some goes oh my god they are the worst speakers in the world and you need to step up to JTR or Salk or some other exotic brand. I'm just like wow I just hear wrong or something I like them. Just goes to show everyone has different tastes and ideas of what is good sounding. Who knows.

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[panteragstk]

 

[Swerd]

Apologies to the OP, LuisEcho. He asked a legitimate question about what he might do about "low fidelity sound at low volumes" when he could hear better sounding fidelity from his speakers at higher volumes. He wondered if audio shop salesmen were pointing him in the right direction by suggesting higher powered and more expensive amplifiers.

Some suggested his amp was the cause, and others, including myself, suggested it was his speakers, not the amp.

A foolish argument about whether 'amps sound different' and whether 'listeners hear different' broke out – with the usual results – no one made any further suggestions to the OP.

If anyone has any useful ideas to answer LuisEcho's question, please speak up.

I don't care what misinformation some people believe, they are entitled to believe whatever they like. But this is a public website. There are curious readers, such as the OP, who want to learn some answers to their questions. We owe them at least an attempt at providing useful answers. For that reason, anyone who makes unusual or extraordinary claims should back it up with some supporting evidence, or they will be challenged. We can do that without derailing the thread and obscuring any possibly answers to the OP's question.

It's useless to be a troll, as it is useless to argue with one. My mistake was arguing with a fool when I was hungry and grouchy. Since then, I've eaten and feel much better. However I wonder if the person I was arguing with can do anything as effective about his foolishness.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think the OP did get some good food for thought at least. I'd like him to confirm he calibrated and that he's actually listening at -55dB and if that's supplemented by a loudness curve like DEQ or not....might give a better understanding of his listening levels at least.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Consider me not convinced, I know what I hear. You do not.
...

I am sure you don't but he has a very good idea..

 

[mtrycrafts]

Apologies to the OP, LuisEcho. He asked a legitimate question about what he might do about "low fidelity sound at low volumes" when he could hear better sounding fidelity from his speakers at higher volumes. He wondered if audio shop salesmen were pointing him in the right direction by suggesting higher powered and more expensive amplifiers.

...

I think I mentioned what happens when volume is so low, if indeed it was that low, -55.
The only thing you will hear is what was above normal level not all the low volume as that disappears, most likely below audibility and the low freq goes with it as does some highs at lower levels. One poster also mentioned and posted the Fletcher Munson curve. That low level is the culprit. Imagine reducing a signals at about 70 dB and reducing it by 50dB or so especially at either end of the FR band.

 

[mtrycrafts]

By the way I had a discussion just like this the other day with the CEO of a very large we'll know speaker manufacturer. We talked about costs of speaker research, costs of drivers and all that stuff. Like he was saying there are so many variables, and there is no real way to quantify what people actually hear. We talked about speakers that cost a lot of money and speakers that cost a fraction of the price. Interesting discussion.

...

Logical fallacy of authority? He should have talked to Floyd Toole and his researchers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... Just goes to show everyone has different tastes and ideas of what is good sounding. Who knows.
...

Well, Floyd Toole and company knows.

 

[LuisEcho]

I think the OP did get some good food for thought at least. I'd like him to confirm he calibrated and that he's actually listening at -55dB and if that's supplemented by a loudness curve like DEQ or not....might give a better understanding of his listening levels at least.

So im home and i can confirm the volume is 55 positive On a scale from 0-98 not sure what the units are.

This is what i gathered from everyone's coments... Amps will have an effect on how your system sounds but it depends on what your listening to and the operating range you are using. For sure all these new amplifires are over selling the ratings dedicated amps will provide possibly a greater operating range compared to some integrated receivers and in the conditions they are used for.

The bigger impact in fidelity and range will come from the speaker and setup.

At the end of the day a combination of good equipment will give good usable quality sound. And a big question i had about distortion i think was answered by comparing a macintosh distortion and rotel ect... thanks again to everyone who participated sales people just want u to buy as much equipment as possible when sometimes its not necessarily going to be used (extra power).

 

[lovinthehd]

So im home and i can confirm the volume is 55 positive On a scale from 0-98 not sure what the units are.

.

Did you calibrate the volume scale with an included mic/setup routine? If so your 55 setting on that absolute scale you're using is much louder than -55dB on the relative scale.

 

[LuisEcho]

Did you calibrate the volume scale with an included mic/setup routine? If so your 55 setting on that absolute scale you're using is much louder than -55dB on the relative scale.

Agreed

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

The bigger impact in fidelity and range will come from the speaker and setup.

...

Actually, we didn't discuss room acoustics that is equal to the speakers importance.

 

[PENG]

Forget it, it's over. We all have different gear, different tastes, different perceptions. Let's all sing kumbaya. I'm always amazed when a discussion of Def Tech comes up which I really like and some goes oh my god they are the worst speakers in the world and you need to step up to JTR or Salk or some other exotic brand. I'm just like wow I just hear wrong or something I like them. Just goes to show everyone has different tastes and ideas of what is good sounding. Who knows.

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My reference point is always what I experienced in live classical orchestra music in concert halls and where the least electronics are used. I happened to enjoy that kind of "sound quality" most too.

 

[PENG]

Consider me not convinced, I know what I hear. You do not.

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Once again, this thread is getting so long it is hard to keep track of who said what, but let's say no one should be ridiculed or even challenged for stating an opinion and/or sharing their own experience in hearing night and day or little difference between whatever. I supposed ideally if one makes that point first using "imo" kind of thing, instead making seemingly a factual statement without qualification (not referring to you, just in general) then it most likely would have avoided such back and forth thereafter but then I don't think we need to be so careful all the time.

 

[Hetfield]

Once again, this thread is getting so long it is hard to keep track of who said what, but let's say no one should be ridiculed or even challenged for stating an opinion and/or sharing their own experience in hearing night and day or little difference between whatever. I supposed ideally if one makes that point first using "imo" kind of thing, instead making seemingly a factual statement without qualification (not referring to you, just in general) then it most likely would have avoided such back and forth thereafter but then I don't think we need to be so careful all the time.

Dude it's over. Don't breath life back into this.

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[PENG]

Would 'proper' listening test results mean much to you if you hear different? Will you force yourself to trust the results and ignore what you hear?

We can all hear differently even given a particular music tone, but the amplifier's job is to amplifier the original signal fed into its input and output it to the speaker faithfully. So yes, it is best to go with accuracy that is completely measurable especially considering our human limitations. To make it sound best to you then you can do your own thing with tone control, eq, room treatment etc.etc.. Otherwise manufacturers would have to design amps with all sorts of distortions to suit all sorts of buyers; and all sorts of buyers would have to test hear many amps with many speakers in their own listening environment, theoretically speaking. No factor in other components in the chain including mastering, recording, dacs, etc. you can see the big mess the manufacturers would have on their hand if they have to face buyers who insist on going by what they hear instead of specs and measurements designed and done to confirm the specs.

 

[yepimonfire]

I did a search and did not find any thread that would answer my question.
Every time i ask a retailer about low volume fidelity they are always trying to sell me more power, separates, or stereo amps. I have a Marantz sr6011 that has decent power but i am looking for fidelity.

I dont have a big room so i dont need too much power but what i think will provide the fidelity is the absence of distortion. Please correct me if I'm wrong. What i have seen in amps is that you can get decent power output at both 4 and 8 ohms but the distortion varies from brand to brand.

So far what i have seen is that Macintosh has same power at both 4 and 8 ohms and real low distortion throughout the entire frequency band. What other brand at a lower price point can offer similar performance in reference to distortion through the operating range?

Within an amps power capability the distortion should be identical brand to brand. When it comes to solid state amps, the only time distortion becomes an issue is when power limits are involved. What volume do you listen at, how far from the speakers, and which speakers? Most people don't need as much power as they think, and all SS amps are usually ruler flat +- fractions of a dB from 20hz-20khz.

True fidelity comes from speakers and their interaction with the room. A ruler flat response, wide off axis dispersion, and low non linear distortion (like intermodulation distortion, harmonic distortion etc) contribute to high fidelity. We want the speakers to play back the signal that was recorded as closely as possible.

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[Irvrobinson]

Within an amps power capability the distortion should be identical brand to brand. When it comes to solid state amps, the only time distortion becomes an issue is when power limits are involved. What volume do you listen at, how far from the speakers, and which speakers? Most people don't need as much power as they think, and all SS amps are usually ruler flat +- fractions of a dB from 20hz-20khz.

This is easily provable as not true, just by looking at the measured test results on Audioholics. The signal-to-ratio measurements and the FFT distortion analysis will usually show clear differences. The noise floor in particular can vary by at least six decibels, sometimes more.

I will agree that, at least for high quality dedicated power amplifiers, amplifiers are becoming more alike distortion-wise. I believe this is due to the increased use of IC op-amps in the two or three initial amplification stages, as opposed to using custom discrete-component circuitry. SNR measurements still seem to vary quite a bit, though there doesn't seem to be a pattern to it. Some expensive amplifiers are noisy and some AVRs are quiet.

On this forum there are some contributors who believe all solid-state amplifiers are audibly impossible to differentiate between, and others (like me, TLSGuy, and Gene, to name three who have posted statements about it) think otherwise under some circumstances. My conclusion has been the smartest and most reasonable posters stay away from strong assertions and absolutes.

 

[Andrein]

My reference point is always what I experienced in live classical orchestra music in concert halls and where the least electronics are used. I happened to enjoy that kind of "sound quality" most too.

Did you do measurements in the concert hall? If not you just were biased by orchestra reputation)))