Low Volume Fidelity VS Power Ratings

[Pogre]

@LuisEcho I caught a post from you earlier mentioning that you might try playing with the positioning of your speakers. Have you had an opportunity to try this out? Sometimes that by itself can clear up some issues with the right distance and toe in.

 

[panteragstk]

@LuisEcho I caught a post from you earlier mentioning that you might try playing with the positioning of your speakers. Have you had an opportunity to try this out? Sometimes that by itself can clear up some issues with the right distance and toe in.

Good point. I've had speakers sound quite a bit better by toeing in and moving further from the wall. I know that isn't always possible depending on the room, but it can help quite a lot.

 

[Hetfield]

Good point. I've had speakers sound quite a bit better by toeing in and moving further from the wall. I know that isn't always possible depending on the room, but it can help quite a lot.

Speaker placement is an often overlooked part of the whole equation. It's extremely important and it could take a while to get it just right. I'm a fiddler and will always continue to tweak things. With Auto-calibration it makes life much easier because if you do end up moving things around just rerun Auto-calibration and no pain at all. I have found bipolar speakers to be the absolute hardest to place. That's why I got away from them.

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[yepimonfire]

This is easily provable as not true, just by looking at the measured test results on Audioholics. The signal-to-ratio measurements and the FFT distortion analysis will usually show clear differences. The noise floor in particular can vary by at least six decibels, sometimes more.

I will agree that, at least for high quality dedicated power amplifiers, amplifiers are becoming more alike distortion-wise. I believe this is due to the increased use of IC op-amps in the two or three initial amplification stages, as opposed to using custom discrete-component circuitry. SNR measurements still seem to vary quite a bit, though there doesn't seem to be a pattern to it. Some expensive amplifiers are noisy and some AVRs are quiet.

On this forum there are some contributors who believe all solid-state amplifiers are audibly impossible to differentiate between, and others (like me, TLSGuy, and Gene, to name three who have posted statements about it) think otherwise under some circumstances. My conclusion has been the smartest and most reasonable posters stay away from strong assertions and absolutes.

Even my super cheap Sony STR DH550 has a very low noise floor. What could possibly make one amplifier sound different from another? I've never heard a difference between any of them. Even the cheap Chinese mini amps on parts express sound exactly the same as my onkyo as long as it isn't driven into clipping.

I am interested in hearing how one could be different, and what that difference is (outside of SNR). A majority of receivers and amplifiers show harmonic distortions as being significantly below the fundamentals, even if one amp showed distortion at -96dB and another at -70dB, that's still low enough to be inaudible due to masking.

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[Irvrobinson]

Even my super cheap Sony STR DH550 has a very low noise floor. What could possibly make one amplifier sound different from another? I've never heard a difference between any of them. Even the cheap Chinese mini amps on parts express sound exactly the same as my onkyo as long as it isn't driven into clipping.

I am interested in hearing how one could be different, and what that difference is (outside of SNR). A majority of receivers and amplifiers show harmonic distortions as being significantly below the fundamentals, even if one amp showed distortion at -96dB and another at -70dB, that's still low enough to be inaudible due to masking.

You said the distortion was identical, which is what I was discussing. It isn't, technically. Whether or not there are audible differences and under what circumstances you can hear them is a long-running controversy on AH. The argument meanders through appropriate listening test practices, what is audible and what can't be, equipment interaction, you name it. In the end the people with the opposing views seem to just get tired of arguing and convince each other of nothing.

 

[PENG]

This is easily provable as not true, just by looking at the measured test results on Audioholics. The signal-to-ratio measurements and the FFT distortion analysis will usually show clear differences. The noise floor in particular can vary by at least six decibels, sometimes more.

I agree, though for THD+N, in most cases the distortions are well below 0.1% so you could be comparing 0.01% to 0.08% as a pretty extreme example. Your point on the SNR is an important one for me as I typically listen to 70dB average or less, with the AC off when listening to classical music. I suppose for people who enjoy much higher spl then it is not as important.

Some expensive amplifiers are noisy and some AVRs are quiet.

Good to know I am not the only one who noticed that.. I have also seen examples where an AVR has lower or much lower THD+N (full bandwidth, at rated output) than their more expensive "separate" counterparts, though obviously there are also no shortages of explanation about how and why some high end gear with even >0.1% THD could sound superior.

On this forum there are some contributors who believe all solid-state amplifiers are audibly impossible to differentiate between, and others (like me, TLSGuy, and Gene, to name three who have posted statements about it) think otherwise under some circumstances. My conclusion has been the smartest and most reasonable posters stay away from strong assertions and absolutes.

I am sure there are such contributors but it seems to me most of the time such contributors would qualify their statements. One would have to work very hard to find blanket statements about "all"...., without any qualifications such as "when operated within their limits....etc.etc..". From what I can see, most but obviously not all of the time people in either camp tend to be too sensitive when their claims/beliefs are seemingly being challenged.

 

[PENG]

Did you do measurements in the concert hall? If not you just were biased by orchestra reputation)))

Of course not, I just prefer live orchestral classical or jazz that are free or virtual free from the influence of mics, mixers, amplifiers etc. Years ago I hate to go to any such live concerts because when I came home I found my hifi system totally inadequte, but in recent years I find the gap has closed quite a bit, enough for me to enjoy both back to back.

 

[PENG]

Even my super cheap Sony STR DH550 has a very low noise floor. What could possibly make one amplifier sound different from another? I've never heard a difference between any of them. Even the cheap Chinese mini amps on parts express sound exactly the same as my onkyo as long as it isn't driven into clipping.

I am interested in hearing how one could be different, and what that difference is (outside of SNR). A majority of receivers and amplifiers show harmonic distortions as being significantly below the fundamentals, even if one amp showed distortion at -96dB and another at -70dB, that's still low enough to be inaudible due to masking.

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He did say "....think otherwise under some circumstances." I think we all need to turn our sensitivity down a couple notches.

 

[PENG]

Dude it's over. Don't breath life back into this.

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Great, thanks for confirming this, so hopefully we all can continue on exchanging ideas, opinions etc. happily.

 

[Hetfield]

Great, thanks for confirming this, so hopefully we all can continue on exchanging ideas, opinions etc. happily.

Yes we can. No problem. I got heated after about 1000 messages, no big deal. I apologise to anyone and everyone.
Subsequently I just stepped off the upgrade ledge. I was actually thinking of scrapping my speakers that I recently finished buying. Then I sat down to really listen to the system and came off the ledge. It sounded so good I found myself saying I'd have to be brain dead to change these speakers out. It just sounded so good. I guess that upgrade bug gets us at some point or tries to in this case.

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[Hetfield]

Should of posted this before. Great video from our boys here at Audioholics.