KEF LS50 Amplification - Crown XLI2500?

[<eargiant]

Only slightly different.

Maybe if you're making lateral moves. Been there- done that, I've had several DACs in here. But try something in the higher end and the differences will amaze you.

A DAC is no different and just as important as any other source. What you get out of your system can only be as good as what you feed it. It's not so much the chip itself but how the DAC chips are implemented and the quality of the analog stage design that makes a huge difference in presentation.

Of course, you need to have an amp and speakers that will not get in the way of letting you hear it but I know you don't believe that either.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Maybe if you're making lateral moves. Been there- done that, I've had several DACs in here. But try something in the higher end and the differences will amaze you.

A DAC is no different and just as important as any other source. What you get out of your system can only be as good as what you feed it. It's not so much the chip itself but how the DAC chips are implemented and the quality of the analog stage design that makes a huge difference in presentation.

Of course, you need to have an amp and speakers that will not get in the way of letting you hear it but I know you don't believe that either.

If you believe it, then you believe it.

We're not getting into the DAC-sound-amazingly-different argument.

 

[killdozzer]

LS50's seem to behave smoother (less brilliant yet still excellent highs) with the 100w/ch NAD M10

But NAD has a deliberate sonic signature and it is exactly what you've described.

 

[GrimSurfer]

What's the general consensus on Crown pro amps for "audiophile" applications, especially the Class AB XLI series with the large toroidal transformers (rather than the XLS series Class-D amps that use DSP)?

If they are highly recommended and fantastic bang for the buck, would the XLI2500 be overkill? Since the LS50's seem to really love lots of power, would getting one each be overkill? What about the XLI1500?

If there is better out there and these aren't recommended, what would be options that really bring the most out of the LS50's?

I got a pair of LS50 for $900. While I could get amps like the Benchmark AHB2, NAD M22 or the like for around $2500+, or amps like Peachtree Nova150 or Rogue Audio Sphinx and the like for about $1500, isn't there a general rule that you should put the bulk of your money into speakers rather than amplification? If so, it would seem like spending 50% to 250% more on amps for $900 speakers may not make that much sense.

Then there are amps like the Outlaw M2200 monoblocks, NAD BEE series amp, Outlaw RR2160 receiver, etc. under $1000...

What would be the best route to take? Wouldn't I be better off putting in another $2K into much better speakers than into an amp for the LS50's?

Lastly, what about the LS50W? Would that maybe be the best, most optimal option for the least amount? I hear great things about it because it's specifically tuned amplification for the LS50, as the engineers intended. But I worry about the reliability issues I've read about them... and I'd like to keep the speakers for longer than 5+ years, so it concerns me that the electronics could fail at some point.

Thanks in advance for your experienced input!

If you have the budget to get a Benchmark or NAD Masters series, get either of them. They are far higher quality and better spec'd than the others you mentioned. The Benchmark or NAD Master will have no issues driving your LS50s.

 

[JerryLove]

If you have the budget to get a Benchmark or NAD Masters series, get them. They are far higher quality and better spec'd than the others you mentioned. Either the Benchmark or NAD Master will have no issues driving your LS50s.

Not really https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-masters-series-m22-power-amplifier-measurements

For a bunch more weight, cost, and power consumption you get the same THD, a SNR that may be better or worse depending on how hard you are driving it (worse under load: unknown @1w),and more wattage.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Not really https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-masters-series-m22-power-amplifier-measurements

For a bunch more weight, cost, and power consumption you get the same THD, a SNR that may be better or worse depending on how hard you are driving it (worse under load: unknown @1w),and more wattage.

You really should look at the actual science and measurements rather than relying on your subjective opinion.

JA said "NAD's Masters Series M22 amplifier measures extraordinarily well. It is the very model of a modern class-D amplifier!" So if you wish to question this statement, take it up with him sport.

I won't bother repeating what he said about the Benchmark. Look it up yourself.

As for your other comment, you display stupidity like it's a virtue. (For mods: If you wish to ban me for this, do so. Jerry is doing nobody here any good. His advice is poor, his technical knowledge scant, and the only purpose of his posts is to reinforce his personal delusions. So go ahead and cancel my account... I'm not interested in participating in a forum that allows his kind of idiocy to flourish.)

 

[JerryLove]

JA said "NAD's Masters Series M22 amplifier measures extraordinarily well. It is the very model of a modern class-D amplifier!" So if you wish to question this statement, take it up with him sport.

I won't bother repeating what he said about the Benchmark. Look it up yourself.

As for your other comment, you display ignorance like it's a virtue.

I don't care what JA (who or whatever that is)'s subjective opinion was. The link includes objective measurements which can be compared to the amps you were claiming were worse; and those measurements disprove your claim.

I actually doubt you've significantly listened to all of these amps yourself.
I know for a fact that the measurements don't bear you out.

So all I'm left with is the assumption that you have a bias not based in fact which you use to make your recommendations on. Based on your posting: you like boutique amps that aren't widely known outside the audiophile world... They don't have to be unpopular (NAD isn't), but they can't be too popular (Emotiva, McIntosh, Crown). In short: a hipster.

 

[KenM10759]

Both the Powernode 2 and it's successor the M10 connected to the internet (and my LAN for access to my music stored on my Bluesound Vault 2) via Ethernet. They are both capable of Bluetooth, though I've never used it. I stream Tidal HiFi, and also had my turntable connected to each via their analog inputs.

When I got the M10, I also had been doing some renovations to my office, so my LS50's got off my desktop and onto good stands. Speaker output is through the same Canare 4S11 cable with Blue Jeans Cable's locking banana plugs.

Being an NAD "Masters" product with a different DAC chipset than the Bluesound Powernode 2, that also could have a significant effect. I'm not the only person who has heard the setup, and others who have heard it remarked that it sounds better. There's a number a variables involved, so it's likely a combination of all of them.

 

[JerryLove]

Both the Powernode 2 and it's successor the M10 connected to the internet (and my LAN for access to my music stored on my Bluesound Vault 2) via Ethernet. They are both capable of Bluetooth, though I've never used it. I stream Tidal HiFi, and also had my turntable connected to each via their analog inputs.

I assume the turntable sounded the same on both amps?

 

[<eargiant]

I assume the turntable sounded the same on both amps?

Why would you assume that? Can you elaborate?

 

[KenM10759]

I assume the turntable sounded the same on both amps?

Not at all, but I really can't say why. Same phono amp, turntable and cartridge in play. The differences include the amps, but also placement.

It used to be situated between my center speaker and right speaker, on a glass surface top of my low A/V stand below the wall-mounted TV. It was not powered by the Powernode 2, rather it was connected to my NAD T758v3. (Always 2.0 or 2.1, never used with the center speaker running.)

Now it's on a Salamander Archetype 3.0 stand, in maple. It used to be I heard a bit of rumble-type noise between the time the stylus was lowered to the LP and when the music started. Now I hear nearly nothing, and even the stylus touching down is super quiet.

Unreal improvement, yet another case of multiple factors involved.

 

[Beave]

Maybe if you're making lateral moves. Been there- done that, I've had several DACs in here. But try something in the higher end and the differences will amaze you.

A DAC is no different and just as important as any other source. What you get out of your system can only be as good as what you feed it. It's not so much the chip itself but how the DAC chips are implemented and the quality of the analog stage design that makes a huge difference in presentation.

Of course, you need to have an amp and speakers that will not get in the way of letting you hear it but I know you don't believe that either.

What measurable parameters would show audible differences between 'higher end' DACs and not-so-good ones?

Or are the differences audible but not measurable by modern test gear?

 

[<eargiant]

What measurable parameters would show audible differences between 'higher end' DACs and not-so-good ones?

Or are the differences audible but not measurable by modern test gear?

I don't want to get into a back and forth here because I know that many on this forum have already made up their minds on everything audio related. But just one visit to my home and unless their ears are plugged they will hear the difference between say a Meridian Explorer2 DAC and a Benchmark DAC2 HGC.

Test gear? Of course the differences are measurable by modern test gear (even though I don't think we are yet able to measure exactly how we hear, or everything that is important). Just compare JAs measurements of the Audioquest Dragonfly DACs vs the Meridian Explorer2 and even between those two relatively lateral moves there are differences in measurements (bit resolution and bandwidth are two). Then look at his measurements of Benchmark DAC2/ DAC3. There are plenty of differences within the audible band.

Dragonfly Red & Black:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-measurements

Meridian Explorer:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer-usb-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements

Meridian Explorer2:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer2-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

Benchmark DAC2 HGC:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac2-hgc-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements

As far as sound, heck even a Schiit DAC (gotta check the model) sounds better than the DAC in the Parasound P5 pre-amp. I didn't expect that, yet everybody in the room heard it.

I know, people here will say you can't hear the differences in those measurements when it suits them. And for them I feel truly sorry because personally going from a bunch of lateral move DACs in the <$700 range (from the ODAC to the Marantz HD-DAC1 and a slew of others in between) to the Benchmark DAC2 HGC was a revelation. I never would have believed the difference would be that great if I hadn't heard it for myself. I have NEVER heard digital files (very familiar recordings) in my home sound as good as they do with the Benchmark. Simply stunning.

YMMV, people can chose what they want but I think most attentive listeners will easily be able to hear the clear differences between an entry level DAC and something like the Benchmark if they spend some time with both.

 

[Beave]

I admire your super-human hearing aural imagination.

 

[Beave]

I notice *none* of your comparisons were level-matched, much less blinded.

 

[<eargiant]

I admire your super-human hearing aural imagination.

This is why I shouldn't have wasted my time giving you the courtesy of a response.

 

[Beave]

So what makes one DAC sound better than another? Specific design features that lead to specific superior measurements?

 

[viseral audio]

just my two cents but when I replaced a carver amp with crown xli3500 driving a pair of 18" woofers I swear I could hear a difference in quickness and authority in the bass.

 

[John Parks]

This is why I shouldn't have wasted my time giving you the courtesy of a response.

Everything sounds the same if you don't listen.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

GrimSurfer said:
"As for your other comment, you display stupidity like it's a virtue. (For mods: If you wish to ban me for this, do so. Jerry is doing nobody here any good. His advice is poor, his technical knowledge scant, and the only purpose of his posts is to reinforce his personal delusions. So go ahead and cancel my account... I'm not interested in participating in a forum that allows his kind of idiocy to flourish.)"

Goodbye.